Training Camp - What I'm Watching For

[BorderRivals.com]

Obviously there are a lot of things to watch for this training camp. What are you most excited to look for? The starting position battles at RT, RB, and S? Who'll emerge as our 4-5, maybe 6th, WR? The play of Terrell Manning or another young player?

My focus will be on the play of the big men on both sides of the ball. We need the OL to gel after the transition and somebody to emerge at RT. And we need our last two first-rounders to live up to their draft status. If that can happen, we will have a good pass rush IMO. Here's more on this: http://wp.me/p29VCs-iq

 

[PackFanNChiTown]

OL and also hoping Aaron gets his groove back. When he doesn't have to worry about the Malachi Crunch (yes I made a Happy Days reference) coming from the blind side the man is poetry in motion and a joy to watch. If he can find a return to the offense of 2011 (hopefully with a serious run threat) this team is going to be nearly unstoppable.

Also eager to see if Jolly can return to form. He was a one-man wrecking crew before he went away and we could use that "attitude" from our D-line.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

I want to see a run game develope. I know we are pass first team, but the threat of a run is non-existent for the most part. Teams were only 4 or 5 in the box and still stone stopping our run game. I want to see some big gains which result in teams loading 7 guys in the box = more one on one match ups for the play action pass. I want jordy to catch the deep bombs off those......ahhh....sweetness.

 

[Jordyruns]

I would like to add in BJ Coleman hopefully showing a lot of improvement/ better command of the offensive system and taking control of the backup QB spot.

 

[AmishMafia]

First: Jolly. Just to see what kind of shape he is in. We won't know what he has, though, till he starts banging heads when the bullets are live.

2ndly - RB battle. Want to see what the new kids got as well as some of our young vets to see if they have stepped it up. I think this may be the position that goes from weakness to strength in one season.

 

[I_am_smoked_cheddar]

1) The Kicking game - Crosby was not at his best last season.
2) The O-Line - Pass protection and run blocking need to improve.
3) The Secondary - With the loss of Woodson, the Safeties and Corners will need to step up a step or two.
4) Special Teams - Can be the difference when things get tight.

I would also like to see more articles posted that offer a clear, impartial view of the Packers as well as the competition.

 

[13 Times Champs]

1) How the Safety position shakes out. Will either McMillan or Jennings be good enough?
2) Pass Rush from someone other than Matthews
3) OL- Right and Left tackle and how effective the line switches will be
4) Running game - it would be an immense help to passing game and take some pressure off OL

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Defensive line and linebackers. If our front seven improves, even if everything else from last year is the same, this team can win a Super Bowl. Our offense was plenty good enough last year to win it all and our secondary is very good to excellent. Only poor dline play and lack of playmakers (excepting of course Matthews) in the linebacking group are holding this team back.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Defensive line and linebackers. If our front seven improves, even if everything else from last year is the same, this team can win a Super Bowl. Our offense was plenty good enough last year to win it all and our secondary is very good to excellent. Only poor dline play and lack of playmakers (excepting of course Matthews) in the linebacking group are holding this team back.

I think that's right...there are multiple question marks in those groups.

- What will we get out of Raji and Hawk this season? Can they get back to 2010 form?

- The early returns on Datone Jones have been favorable with respect to speed, rush skills and even dropping in coverage. But MM commented on his needing to finishing plays and I see a reporter twitter note from yesterday that Lacy knocked him down on a run. Is he a 3-down player? And if not, who's the base DE on that side now that Neal is a lighter / quicker some-kind-of-hybrid player, or so the story goes?

- Does Pickett have one more good year in him?

- Perry's an open book as to whether the light goes on.

As far as S goes, one would like to think McMillan emerges as the guy since you can't teach physical...but his anticipation/instincts/smarts (whatever you want to call it) in the passing game has left a lot to be desired. Another waiting-for-the-lightbulb guy. It could be a repeat of last year...a platoon type situation.

TB is Lacy's job to lose. RT is a competitive situation, but in the end we can expect someone to emerge who is less than Pro Bowl and better that terrible...marginally adequate is the likely outcome.

 

[JBlood]

If we control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball, it's Championship #14.

 

[El Guapo]

I'm with the O- and D-lines. I'm craving more reports on how Bulaga and Sitton are adjusting. I read a quote from Sitton that they're a long way towards figuring out if this will work out in the end. I'm most interested in the RT position. I think that Barclay will work out to be another Mark Tauscher (doughboy) but Newhouse and Baktarhi will keep it interesting.

On the D-line it's all about Jolly, Jones, and Wilson. Reports about Wilson have been good and if Jolly and Jones can provide added depth and toughness, then the rest of the defense will improve as well.

 

[Einstein McFly]

It sounds like Daniels is really playing well. It'd sure be nice to be able to take Raji off the field more in passing situations.

I'm happy to hear that Baktarhi is doing so well, though in training camp it's hard to know who to root for since every one -on-one pass rushing drill is a zero sum game.

It'd be nice to see Jolly stick around, but isn't it basically between him and Wilson? Raji, Pickett, Jones, Neal and Daniels are locks. They'll probably only keep one more, right? Wilson is four years younger, but I don't think he's played the pass nearly as well as prime Jolly (in terms of batting down passes). We'll see how it goes...

 

[El Guapo]

I'm not sure that Neal and Daniels are locks. They are very likely but Raji-Pickett-Jones are all locks. I think that a strong camp by Jolly and/or Wilson could push Neal and/or Daniels out the door. We've also seen Thompson go with five TEs and 3 FBs so there is no guaranteed number of roster spots at any position.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

I am wanting minimal injuries out of training camp. Beyond that I think we have great talent on this team. The next few years are going to be great.

 

[Einstein McFly]

I'm not sure that Neal and Daniels are locks. They are very likely but Raji-Pickett-Jones are all locks. I think that a strong camp by Jolly and/or Wilson could push Neal and/or Daniels out the door. We've also seen Thompson go with five TEs and 3 FBs so there is no guaranteed number of roster spots at any position.

They used a 4th on Daniels last year and he's only been better than they expected. He was supposed to be only a situational pass rusher but last year he also had some of the best plays stuffing the run on short yardage. I was always surprised that Worthy played so many more snaps. Also, as I said above, everything I've read sounds like he's really turned it on. I don't see how they'd cut him.

As for Neal, he sure looked good at times last year and unless he has some horrible season ending injury, he's a lock. After everything they put up with him and with his new "versatility", they're going to keep him around.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I'm not sure that Neal and Daniels are locks. They are very likely but Raji-Pickett-Jones are all locks. I think that a strong camp by Jolly and/or Wilson could push Neal and/or Daniels out the door. We've also seen Thompson go with five TEs and 3 FBs so there is no guaranteed number of roster spots at any position.

Neal, admittedly in limited snaps last year, was by far the best pass rusher amongst our dlinemen. Jolly and Wilson are simply big bodies that can hold their ground, we have plenty of those. If Neal can start the season healthy (I mean the regular season) I don't see how he's not on the team.

 

[El Guapo]

I guess that my point is that if you go into the RB thread, everybody is quite sure that Starks can't stay healthy and may not even be on the Week 1 roster. Yet in this thread, the sentiment about an identically-injured player such as Neal is that he's a lock. My point for both is that assuming that they are healthy, then yes locks. Their injury histories take them both of out of the lock category in my book, but both outstanding starting-quality players when healthy.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Only problem with the Starks/Neal comparison is that Neal actually brings something valuable relative to the other dlinemen. Starks, even when healthy, has never really done anything special outside of the playoff game against the Eagles. Neal on the other hand is actually a pretty good pass rusher, and that's extremely valuable from a 3-4 guy.

 

[El Guapo]

Wow. First of all, I don't think that you can discount his 2010 season at all. His first game ever he ran for 73 yards against the 49ers. Then MM abandoned the run against the Lions and Bears giving him 6 attempts and 5 respectively. 123 yards against the Eagles was hugely important in that win. While he only ran for 66, 74, and 52 in the following playoff games and Super Bowl those were all top-to-elite defenses in the Falcons, Bears, and Steelers. All for a rookie coming off the PUP.

In 2011 he averaged 4.3 yards per carry and 7.2 yards against the Giants in our playoff loss, although he was only allowed 6 attempts. In 2012 his average was down to 3.6 yards per carry in an injury-filled season.

I'm not pumping him up to greatness, but to say that he hasn't done anything compared to a guy with 17 tackles and 5.5 sacks, most of which came last season....

The point is that they have both been snake-bitten by injuries. I'll grant you that Neal shows more upside but the original discussion was about who is a lock for the team. That has less to do with upside at this point as injury history and injury status as of the final cut-down day.

 

[longtimefan]

Neal, admittedly in limited snaps last year, was by far the best pass rusher amongst our dlinemen. Jolly and Wilson are simply big bodies that can hold their ground, we have plenty of those. If Neal can start the season healthy (I mean the regular season) I don't see how he's not on the team.

Neal also wore a shoulder harness last year..He said it hindered his breathing, but now no harness

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Wow. First of all, I don't think that you can discount his 2010 season at all. His first game ever he ran for 73 yards against the 49ers. Then MM abandoned the run against the Lions and Bears giving him 6 attempts and 5 respectively. 123 yards against the Eagles was hugely important in that win. While he only ran for 66, 74, and 52 in the following playoff games and Super Bowl those were all top-to-elite defenses in the Falcons, Bears, and Steelers. All for a rookie coming off the PUP.

In 2011 he averaged 4.3 yards per carry and 7.2 yards against the Giants in our playoff loss, although he was only allowed 6 attempts. In 2012 his average was down to 3.6 yards per carry in an injury-filled season.

I'm not pumping him up to greatness, but to say that he hasn't done anything compared to a guy with 17 tackles and 5.5 sacks, most of which came last season....

The point is that they have both been snake-bitten by injuries. I'll grant you that Neal shows more upside but the original discussion was about who is a lock for the team. That has less to do with upside at this point as injury history and injury status as of the final cut-down day.

Hmmmm...sensing that your wow in some way was meant to be sarcastic. Allow me to rebut.

In 2010, Starks averaged 3.5 yards per carry, not even an average NFL running back. In 2011 he averaged 4.3 yards per carry, good for 29th in the NFL (after removing players with limited carries), that's hardly what I would call special. In 2012 he averaged 3.6 yards per carry (for comparison, Harris averaged a full yard more per carry)...doesn't even rank in the top 40 even if he had qualified with more carries.

What I said regarding the Neal/Starks comparison was that Neal actually brings something to the table at dline that the other players don't offer. Starks adds absolutely nothing unique to our stable of running backs. Neal was third in the NFL amongst 3-4 dlinemen in bringing pressure per pass rush (he pressured the QB on 8.5% of his pass rushes...Watt was the leader at 10.8%). Neal can and should be kept around because he is capable of being the best dlineman on the roster if he can stay healthy. Starks is capable of being interchangeable with any of the running backs on the team, if healthy (though I think Harris has proven to be better and I certainly hope Franklin/Lacey/Green are all better).

 

[HardRightEdge]

How much is a "pressure" really worth? Clearly, when you see a guy force the QB to move smack into the arms of a sacker, that counts for something. Circling behind the pocket, sticking out an arm, and causing the QB to step up is just business as usual.

When a guy has high pressure counts and low sack and hit numbers, shouldn't it make one wonder if (1) he's a step slow or (2) his motor is not revving at adequate throttle?

"Pressure" strikes me as one of those mystery stats invented to give stat-less positions some sabermetric-like measuring stick. Maybe they should measure "consequential pressure" (something bad happens on offense...sack, hit, incompletion, int, fumble, scramble) vs. "inconsequential pressure" (nothing bad happens).

Even then, "consequential pressure" involves judgement calls. For instance, two of Kaepernick's casual jaunts through the secondary were hardly a result of any pressure, though somebody might have gotten credit for one. He just saw guys out of position or with their backs turned and took off for the easy (for him) open field.

And yet, we take these PFF stats as gospel...as they are being compiled by unpaid volunteers.

A QB may see Matthews coming around end with a half step lead and think, "get it away now"...mistakes are made when the perceived risk is high. I have a hard time thinking Raji's frequent "pressures" strike much fear in the heart of opponents given they know he doesn't get home, at least not last year anyway.

And yet, Raji is marked high for pass rush based on "pressures"; his low grades these past two seasons are in run stopping. Take out the "pressures" and what do we really have here?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

How much is a "pressure" really worth? Clearly, when you see a guy force the QB to move smack into the arms of a sacker, that counts for something. Circling behind the pocket, sticking out an arm, and causing the QB to step up is just business as usual.

When a guy has high pressure counts and low sack and hit numbers, shouldn't it make one wonder if (1) he's a step slow or (2) his motor is not revving at adequate throttle?

"Pressure" strikes me as one of those mystery stats invented to give stat-less positions some sabermetric-like measuring stick. Maybe they should measure "consequential pressure" (something bad happens on offense...sack, hit, incompletion, int, fumble, scramble) vs. "inconsequential pressure" (nothing bad happens).

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And yet, Raji is marked high for pass rush based on "pressures"; his low grades these past two seasons are in run stopping. Take out the "pressures" and what do we really have here?

Two things. One, pressures are a better indicator than sacks of performance in pass rush. If you don't believe that then you must believe that Matthews had his worst season in 2011 because he only had 6 sacks (had 43 hurries and 22 hits though). Two, Raji graded out positively in pass rush in 2010 (he was negative in run defense) and 2012, his 2011 was terrible. Should be noted that Raji's pass rush grade was less than half of Mike Neal's in 2012.

As for using PFF stats and grades; I don't know of any other site that grades every player on every snap in an objective fashion. The stats they provide are valuable because they actually give context to a player's performance. I watch the Packers A LOT...I don't watch other teams that often. I can't say how good a safety Burnett is because I don't watch every other safety in the NFL. PFF allows me to compare Burnett to other safeties. Any problem that they incorporate should also be occuring with other players in the league since their system is pretty much uniform. It may not be perfect but everyone player should receive the same problems, so they should wash out (not perfectly but enough to minimize issues).

 

[I_am_smoked_cheddar]

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It's all about the rings. Offence wins games, but Defence wins championships !

What will win games and championships ? Physical play, precision execution, and a total TEAM effort. Champions play as a team and not for individual glory. I want the 2013 Packers to play like champions !

 

[13 Times Champs]

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It's all about the rings. Offence wins games, but Defence wins championships !

What will win games and championships ? Physical play, precision execution, and a total TEAM effort. Champions play as a team and not for individual glory. I want the 2013 Packers to play like champions !

BuggyBill would be proud of your spelling of "Offence" and "Defence".