This is a BOMBSHELL!!!

[Cory]

As I said, I don't need to point out positives about Favre or Hawk. There are hundreds lined up here who can't wait to write something flattering about either.

It is balance to state things that others ignore or gloss over.

That kind of shows what you think of other people. You think people don't know Favre's flaws? Somehow you're "pointing out" something people don't already know? It's been talked about for quite some time. None of the "favre worshippers" as you call them are ignorant to the fact that he's made bad throws and dumb decisions on the football field. Is it only balance to view things as you view them? You've already "lost respect" for Favre so how do you have a balanced view of him?

 

[Zero2Cool]

This "debate" was from another thread I started on our draft philosophy that devolved into a debate over Hawk and Urlacher as rookies.

I'll let Cory tell you about it as he was the one arguing the most ardently for AJ.

Oh, you said it in a different thread. I found it by accident lol

 

[Zero2Cool]

As I said, I don't need to point out positives about Favre or Hawk. There are hundreds lined up here who can't wait to write something flattering about either.

It is balance to state things that others ignore or gloss over.

Since you expect it of me I am going to expect it of you. Go back an read my posts. Every one of them. Then you can start judging by the 'hundreds'

 

[mi_keys]

Arrogant? I'm arrogant because you can't refute what I'm saying? I'm far, far, from arrogant.

Please, share with me what information I've posted on Favre that is inaccurate? The numbers above are fact.

What do you have a problem with, Cory?

1) That Brett played in a low risk West Coast offense most of his career
2) That Brett has more INT's than Marino with less attempts
3) That Brett is going to set the NFL interception record
4) That Brett throws some of the dumbest picks ever witnessed
5) Mike Holmgren made him into a star
6) James Jones scored a 9 on the wonderlic
7) Brett became a star only because of strong discipline administered by Holmgren (How was his career going in Atlanta?)


What is inaccurate? Please, love to discuss but if you want to give up and shun me because you can't disprove my arguments I understand. Those are all facts from where I'm typing.

From my limited experience it seems I strongly disagree with you on a number of subjects. However, I would back your claim that you're not arrogant because few people come back admit mistakes... even the tiniest little things. So kudos to you for doing so. I just think you're aggressive in your presentation (I am too) and sometimes people perceive that as arrogance.


As for your comparison of Favre to Marino...

I would have to say

1.) Brett played in the frigid tundra of Lambeau Field while Marino played in southern Miami. The weather Marino played in is much better suited for playing qb. Also, Favre's ypa is 7.0 and Marino's is 7.3 so you can't say there is a drastic difference in the range the qb's had to be able to hit at. What more, Favre may have played in a controlled system but all you have to do is watch him play and you'd know that he improvises a lot, something he would've done in any system.

2.) Dan Marino's attempts per interception is 33.167 while Favre's is 30.121. That's not a drastic difference.

3.) Yes, Favre is gonna set the nfl interception record. A lot of very good quarterbacks are at the top of that list. Bad quarterbacks don't get the chance to set that record.

4.) Favre has thrown some dumb picks in his life but I've seen dumber. Watch Rex Grossman for example. Actually, the dumbest pick i've ever seen was thrown by Kurt Warner. He threw it almost straight across the field from where he was and all his receivers were downfield. But I digress.

5.) Favre was helped by Holmgren. But Favre was the one making throws other quarterbacks don't even dream of making. You can't teach the heart, drive, and arm Favre has.

6.) True... actually I don't know, but I'll take your word for it.

7.) Favre threw four passes in Atlanta. Hardly enough to judge a player don't you think?

 

[Zero2Cool]

5 attempts with atlanta, two were INT's the other three were dropped lol

 

[Bertram]

Of course Brett Favre isn't the same Brett Favre that won the superbowl, he is 10 years older and past his prime, but he is still a top half QB in this league.

 

[cheesey]

Oannes.....you think you are balancing out all the Favre positive fans? Thats laughable.
We KNOW Favre has made some dumb throws. We ALSO know that he is still in the top 10 of QB's in the league. Just look at the revolving door of QB's on all the other teams. Favre at his worst is still better then alot of teams starters.
Yes. he spoke his mind about Walker. Hey, someone asked him, and he answered what he felt. Walker didn't make his choice based on what Favre said. He was whining way before that. And if that is the kind of person Walker truely is, good riddence to him as far as I'm concerned.
Favre is NOT "God", he's just the best QB GB has ever had, and one of the best of all time. When he DOES retire, chances are we will see the same revolving QB door just about all the rest of the NFL has seen.
I for one am in NO hurry to see that time. You might enjoy looking forward to it, but i don't. I have seen the 1970's and 80's, and am in no hurrry to see THAT return.

 

[Zero2Cool]

Yep. Brett's not THE best QB in the NFL. He may not even be a top 5 anymore. (I'm kind of a homer, I'd rather have him at QB than any other) but realistically He's probably the 7th/8th best in the NFL. He makes some throws still that no one can and also makes throws that no one else would. He gives you the extreme HIGH and LOW. Hopefully with a more experience offensive staff the mistakes won't be so dramatic.

Hey, those who miss Ahman Green. I blame him for the Saints game!! lol (i miss him too, i liked him, but not worth the paycheck he's getting, props to him for getting it)

 

[cheesey]

Yep. Brett's not THE best QB in the NFL. He may not even be a top 5 anymore. (I'm kind of a homer, I'd rather have him at QB than any other) but realistically He's probably the 7th/8th best in the NFL. He makes some throws still that no one can and also makes throws that no one else would. He gives you the extreme HIGH and LOW. Hopefully with a more experience offensive staff the mistakes won't be so dramatic.

Hey, those who miss Ahman Green. I blame him for the Saints game!! lol (i miss him too, i liked him, but not worth the paycheck he's getting, props to him for getting it)

I still remember when Bart Starr was QB. Now, he overstayed his time here. And NO, i'm NOT ripping on him! I respect and love the guy! But physically, he was done a couple years before he left. It was sad seeing how hurt he was, still trying to play. Favre has slipped, but NOT to the level where he doesn't have "it" anymore. When that time comes, i will see it and admit it. He's not as good as he was 10 years ago, but he;s STILL pretty darn good!!!

 

[PWT36]

Oannes here is what counts. The bottom line concerning Brett Favre's years with the Packers from 1992 to the present, from the Packer's official web site packers.com

Favre Watch (Last Updated: 01/02/07)

Brett Favre, already the holder of nearly all of the passing records in Green Bay Packers history, is closing in on a number of NFL passing records as well. Here's a look at where #4 ranks among the all-time NFL greats. Packers.com will be updating Brett's climb up the charts after every game in 2006.

For more stats and information on Brett Favre, check out his bio page.

NFL RECORDS
Career Passing Yards Total To Surpass Year To Date
1) Dan Marino 61,361 3,862 --
2) Brett Favre 57,500 -- 3,885
3) John Elway 51,475 -- --
4) Warren Moon 49,325 -- --
5) Fran Tarkenton 47,003 -- --

Career Passing Attempts
1) Dan Marino 8,358 136 --
2) Brett Favre 8,223 -- 613
3) John Elway 7,250 -- --
4) Warren Moon 6,823 -- --
5) Fran Tarkenton 6,467 -- --

Career Completions
1) Brett Favre 5,021 -- 343
2) Dan Marino 4,967 -- --
3) John Elway 4,123 -- --
4) Warren Moon 3,988 -- --
5) Fran Tarkenton 3,686 -- --

Career Touchdown Passes
1) Dan Marino 420 7 --
2) Brett Favre 414 -- 18
3) Fran Tarkenton 342 -- --
4) John Elway 300 -- --
5) Warren Moon 291 -- --

Career Wins as a Starting QB
1) John Elway 148 2 --
2) Dan Marino 147 1 --
2) Brett Favre 147 -- 8
4) Fran Tarkenton 125 -- --
5) Johnny Unitas 119 -- --

Consecutive Games Started
1) Jim Marshall 270 34 --
2) **** Tingelhoff 240 4 --
3) Brett Favre 237 -- 16
4) Bruce Matthews 229 -- --
5) Jim Otto 210 -- --

GREEN BAY PACKERS RECORDS
Career Games Played Total To Surpass Year To Date
1) Brett Favre 239 -- 16
2) Bart Starr 196 -- --
3) Ray Nitschke 190 -- --
4) Forrest Gregg 187 -- --
5) LeRoy Butler 181 -- --

Career Passing Yards
1) Brett Favre 57,500 -- 3,885
2) Bart Starr 24,718 -- --
3) Lynn ****ey 21,369 -- --
4) Tobin Rote 11,535 -- --
5) Don Majkowski 10,870 -- --

Career Passing Attempts
1) Brett Favre 8,219 -- 623
2) Bart Starr 3,149 -- --
3) Lynn ****ey 2,831 -- --
4) Tobin Rote 1,854 -- --
5) Don Majkowski 1,607 -- --

Career Completions
1) Brett Favre 5,021 -- 343
2) Bart Starr 1,808 -- --
3) Lynn ****ey 1,592 -- --
4) Don Majkowski 889 -- --
5) Tobin Rote 826 -- --

Career Touchdown Passes
1) Brett Favre 414 -- 18
2) Bart Starr 152 -- --
3) Lynn ****ey 133 -- --
4) Tobin Rote 89 -- --
5) Arnie Herber 66 -- --

Note: records are for regular season only.

This post is already getting too long. if any poster on this topic needs more facts, not opinion Just ask, I will post more Info about Brett Favre.

.

 

[Oannes]

Actually, what counts is where Brett Favre is RIGHT NOW. How good will he be THIS season.

To Mi_Keys....

I appreciate the well balanced informed response. I also appreciate your analysis of me. I am aggressive. I am not, nor will I ever be, arrogant. The way I type will probably lead many others who disagree with me to conclude that. The Grossman reference is a good one. He does dumb things but he's still basically a rook with the amount of games he's played. Our guy is a first ballot hall of famer who STILL after all these years makes those kinds of plays. The hope with Rex is that he won't do that anymore, while Favre never did cure his problem with bonehead plays.

Just for fun... The point about Favre's career in Atlanta wasn't so much about him having 5 pass attempts and two picks. One of those was a perfect throw bobbled around by the receiver and then picked. One thing that is a REAL eye opener to the miraculous nature of Brett Favre's career is a program done by ESPN called, " THE TOP 5 REASONS YOU CAN'T BLAME THE FALCONS FOR TRADING BRETT FAVRE". Amazing show. Favre was an incredibly immature moron in his rookie year. If you watch the show, you'd be surprised Wolf ever made that trade. I was. It really didn't make much sense based on what Favre showed on but mostly off the field in Atlanta. Look for that show.... It airs on ESPN Classic. If I ever see that it's coming on, I'll point it out.

Again... What I say about Favre is simply about Favre NOW, not what he DID in the past. He used to be my hero. That is where OBJECTIVITY has to come into play but often doesn't. I certainly don't think anyone here doesn't think Favre does dumb things. It's the attitude toward those dumb things that bothers me. The old, "He's Brett Favre...gotta take the good with the bad...he is the greatest ever so I can overlook that"...."the receiver probably didn't do enough"..."Brett never had the right receivers so how can we expect him not to make chancy throws...he has to, to win."


Here is the single greatest example of my problem with Favre fanatics. I'd really love an honest answer to this question.

What was your honest reaction when Favre threw the horrendous interception in OT at Philly in the playoff game a few years ago?

I'll start... I was incredibly disgusted that our legendary QB thought he could just do something stupid and hope for the best in that situation. I despised the fact that he always thinks he's gotta be a hero. That pass in essence ended his last chance to re-taste glory. I was enraged that the blame went on Mike Sherman for not going for it on 4th and 1, or blaming the defense for 4th and 26. I hated both of those things, but we had the ball in OT and we score we're in the NFC Championship Game. Favre just had to be Favre and hosed us. One of the dumbest plays he's ever made and that's saying a lot. The true greats don't do things like that. Do you ever recall Montana, Brady, Elway, Marino, making a decision that bad in a critical situation? Favre is so prone to make the type of plays that even a bad quarterback wouldn't make those types of throws. His greatness should be measured against that. I'll take the consistency and intelligence of a Brady or Montana over him any day. Each time we go into a game you have to wonder which Favre is going to show up...the one who is going to throw 5 stupid picks that cost us the game, or the one everyone here worships. Those concerns don't exist with TRULY GREAT players. Ever worry Reggie White wasn't going to bring his A game? I can't think of Favre as highly as everyone else because I give a lot of weight to the amount of things he does to lose games. That is as important as the things he's done to win games. In my book, he was the most exciting QB to ever play the game. I loved watching his "street ball" ways on the field. Of course he's the toughest ever. I just wish his decision making had been better over his career.

 

[Chevelle2]

the people on the favre board are funny. they honestly and truly believe sherman was a great GM, and that it is all TTs fault etc etc. They truly like 10-6 out of the playoffs first round. they love sherman. idiots.

 

[MassPackersFan]

the people on the favre board are funny. they honestly and truly believe sherman was a great GM, and that it is all TTs fault etc etc. They truly like 10-6 out of the playoffs first round. they love sherman. idiots.

That's the kind of thing that happens when you get Packers fans who aren't football fans together.

 

[Chevelle2]

^true. they really no nothing outside of the packers, and they dont even know much about the packers. they think you can buy a title every year. very entertaining reading some of that garbage...

 

[pyledriver80]

the people on the favre board are funny. they honestly and truly believe sherman was a great GM, and that it is all TTs fault etc etc. They truly like 10-6 out of the playoffs first round. they love sherman. idiots.

That's the kind of thing that happens when you get Packers fans who aren't football fans together.

You guys are hilarious. So liking a 10-6 team and a playoff appearence is stupid?

WTF do you call 8-8 and sitting at home come playoff time year in and year out?

 

[Cory]

Here is the single greatest example of my problem with Favre fanatics. I'd really love an honest answer to this question.

What was your honest reaction when Favre threw the horrendous interception in OT at Philly in the playoff game a few years ago?

It was a ******* throw?

That pass in essence ended his last chance to re-taste glory. I was enraged that the blame went on Mike Sherman for not going for it on 4th and 1, or blaming the defense for 4th and 26. I hated both of those things, but we had the ball in OT and we score we're in the NFC Championship Game.

I think all Packer fans hated that Favre threw that ball, but part of the blame does have to go on sherman(not just for the 4th and 1, but the overall unbelievaly conservative gamecalling after going up only 14-0 against a great eagles team) and the defense giving up a 4th and 26...I repeat a 4th and 26 is just about as bad as Favre throwing that int at least in my view.

Favre just had to be Favre and hosed us. One of the dumbest plays he's ever made and that's saying a lot. The true greats don't do things like that. Do you ever recall Montana, Brady, Elway, Marino, making a decision that bad in a critical situation?

Uh, actually yes. Montana had an int that was cleanly dropped on the last drive against Cincinatti in the SB(in Miami). He was very lucky it was dropped or his legend would be tarnished a tad. Brady? Last year against the Colts on their last drive he threw a bad int over the middle. Elway? Well he did lose 3 super bowls and I don't know if you want to throw Marino in that question at all.(btw Elway threw quite a bit of ints and not nearly as many tds as Favre so there is that fact in that repsect). With three wins this season Favre will also pass Elway for the winningest QB of all time. Of course Favre makes some really boneheaded plays, but he has had regardless of the ints one of the greatest careers for any player let alone QB.

Favre is so prone to make the type of plays that even a bad quarterback wouldn't make those types of throws. His greatness should be measured against that. I'll take the consistency and intelligence of a Brady or Montana over him any day. Each time we go into a game you have to wonder which Favre is going to show up...the one who is going to throw 5 stupid picks that cost us the game, or the one everyone here worships. Those concerns don't exist with TRULY GREAT players. Ever worry Reggie White wasn't going to bring his A game? I can't think of Favre as highly as everyone else because I give a lot of weight to the amount of things he does to lose games. That is as important as the things he's done to win games. In my book, he was the most exciting QB to ever play the game. I loved watching his "street ball" ways on the field. Of course he's the toughest ever. I just wish his decision making had been better over his career.

I agree he can be a stubborn redneck that will play with reckless abandon and with Holmgren Favre almost always came through in the clutch. What is he second or third on the all time 4th quarter comebacks list? Holmgren knew how to reign him in like a good coach. Speaking of which regarding your "holmgren made favre' comment I can see your point, but if you look at all the great QBs ever you will notice a pattern.

Marino and Shula
Brady and Bellichek
Manning and Dungy
Favre and Holmgren
Elway and Reeves(also Shanahan)

See the pattern? Most great QBs have had great coaches.

Edit-I wish to apologize for my rude attitude towards you. No matter how much I disagree it was wrong of me.

 

[Oannes]

Thanks, Cory. I hope to have a lot of moments together. Who knows? Maybe, we'll agree on something one of these times?

I apologize for anything I've done to offend. I don't ever mean to be a jerk. If I am one, it's not something I'm conscious of.

I think the Favre Holmgren relationship is the strongest of any of those listed. Montana Walsh would be right there with Favre and Holmgren.

I understand all QB's are going to make a throw that could be picked. It's the thinking behind it. The Favre throw in Philly was not only a pick, but a logic defying one. I could live with a pick in the Philly game if he was trying to gun a crossing route to Ferguson and it got jumped. I just can't live with his mentality on a play of that significance. It was almost like he didn't really care what he was doing. I know he did care a great deal. It's like he chokes half the time in big moments and the others he does some logic defying great thing. I just wish he could've figured out how to not make so many bad plays over his career.

 

[Zero2Cool]

I don't think you need to apologize for having a different train of thought. I personally believe thats what makes forums interesting. You're not bashing or overly negative, you're trying to do what you feel is objective and unbias in your review of the team. Some just disagree with it.

 

[Cory]

Thanks, Cory. I hope to have a lot of moments together. Who knows? Maybe, we'll agree on something one of these times?

Nah, never happen. lol jk.

I apologize for anything I've done to offend. I don't ever mean to be a jerk. If I am one, it's not something I'm conscious of.

I appreciate the apology, but looking back on it I think I may have just been oversensitive and jumped some unwarrented conclusions.

I think the Favre Holmgren relationship is the strongest of any of those listed. Montana Walsh would be right there with Favre and Holmgren.

That's a good point. I'd add Marino and Shula in that list as I was watching some kind of show on the NFLnetwork(can't remember what that is) but it said something to the effect that Shula believed he could just rely on Marino's arm. I think the Packers at times have tried to much to rely just on Favre over the years. Manning and Dungy is a little bit of a stretch on my part, but Manning has had his best years with Dungy and got his SB. I was happy for both guys. Elway didn't have a good relationship with reeves from what I read, but who knows to what degree.

I understand all QB's are going to make a throw that could be picked. It's the thinking behind it. The Favre throw in Philly was not only a pick, but a logic defying one. I could live with a pick in the Philly game if he was trying to gun a crossing route to Ferguson and it got jumped. I just can't live with his mentality on a play of that significance. It was almost like he didn't really care what he was doing. I know he did care a great deal. It's like he chokes half the time in big moments and the others he does some logic defying great thing. I just wish he could've figured out how to not make so many bad plays over his career.

I know that eagles game throw is a great example of a really, really dumb throw or mistake or I have no idea what he was really thinking. My best guess is that he trusted Walker to be able to beat his man, didn't make the read quick enough and didn't see Walker shorten his route so he lofted it up where he expected Walker to be without making the proper read on the safety. All in all it was a big, costly mistake by Favre. What did tick me off about Sherman in 2005 was his "that's just brett being brett" comment to the media. I'm left thinking to myself "you're the damn coach!!!" and that is poor leadership from the HC, IMO. I'm not blaming Sherman for Favres blunders, but it just seemed to me that Sherman was either afraid to do something or didn't care. I know the jury is still out on MM, but I did like the fact he would get in Favres face or chastise him after a dumb throw. Brett's wild and he's just one of those players you have to do that for...

 

[Oannes]

Thanks. I like apologizing though.

In my "arrogant" subjective opinion... I think it's always good to be able to read differing views.

Politics isn't a big interest of mine but on certain issues, I love listening to what differing sides have to say. I already know what I think, and why I think it. I like hearing why someone else can look at the same issue and see it so completely differently from me. I try to learn what is behind what someone else believes. Sometimes, my views actually weaken and move toward someone elses. Most of the time, I remain hardened in my opinion and part of that time I fail to see how someone could see it any other way. It's really no different here. There are some things I don't agree with but understand, and there's others I disagree with that really make no sense to me. I guess that is what makes it fun...or maddening.

WOW...That didn't take long... Me and Cory AGREE on something!!!!!

Couldn't agree more about the Mike Sherman comment. Sherman was in awe of Favre. Sherman was the wrong type of coach for Brett Favre. That comment, sadly, was echoed by a lot of fans and that just drives me nuts. Sherman was an enabler. He would've fit right into Anna Nicole Smith's posse.

 

[longtimefan]

I understand all QB's are going to make a throw that could be picked. It's the thinking behind it. The Favre throw in Philly was not only a pick, but a logic defying one. I could live with a pick in the Philly game if he was trying to gun a crossing route to Ferguson and it got jumped. I just can't live with his mentality on a play of that significance. It was almost like he didn't really care what he was doing. I know he did care a great deal. It's like he chokes half the time in big moments and the others he does some logic defying great thing. I just wish he could've figured out how to not make so many bad plays over his career.

I know that eagles game throw is a great example of a really, really dumb throw or mistake or I have no idea what he was really thinking. My best guess is that he trusted Walker to be able to beat his man, didn't make the read quick enough and didn't see Walker shorten his route so he lofted it up where he expected Walker to be without making the proper read on the safety. All in all it was a big, costly mistake by Favre. .

I found an old jsonline article last year where this play was dissected..

From what I recall Brett and Walker had done this play numerous times in the past and Walker would run a certain route and ALWAYS ran the route the same exact way each time they audibled to this..

On the Philly 4th and 26 game , Brett and Walker both realized this was the time to run this audible..For what ever reason Walker ran the route different then the other times he ran it before..

Brett threw it expecting Walker to be where he has been all the other times..that is why it looked like Brett just tossed it w/o any true care for it..

I recall the article was quoting Brett and how he recalled that play and took the majority of the blame for it.

 

[Oannes]

These are the types of things I can't stand. It was Javon Walker's fault? I'm not needling you because you're just sharing what you remember from an article. I'm going to look for said article, because I don't recall reading it and I read a lot of stuff about that game and play.

Even if Walker runs full speed there's guys standing right there.

It is a typical reaction from fans, media, and everyone else to pin a pick on the receiver, because it just couldn't be Favre's fault and our receivers just aren't that good.

 

[longtimefan]

These are the types of things I can't stand. It was Javon Walker's fault? I'm not needling you because you're just sharing what you remember from an article. I'm going to look for said article, because I don't recall reading it and I read a lot of stuff about that game and play.

Even if Walker runs full speed there's guys standing right there.

It is a typical reaction from fans, media, and everyone else to pin a pick on the receiver, because it just couldn't be Favre's fault and our receivers just aren't that good.

Where did I type I am blaming Walker..

And where did I type Brett put most of the blame on him self?

 

[Zero2Cool]

I think I remember Walker taking blame for it, but I put on Brett's shoulders. He was being rushed and just heaved it up like he panic'd.

 

[Cory]

Thanks. I like apologizing though.

In my "arrogant" subjective opinion... I think it's always good to be able to read differing views.

Haha I deserved that.

Politics isn't a big interest of mine but on certain issues, I love listening to what differing sides have to say. I already know what I think, and why I think it. I like hearing why someone else can look at the same issue and see it so completely differently from me. I try to learn what is behind what someone else believes. Sometimes, my views actually weaken and move toward someone elses. Most of the time, I remain hardened in my opinion and part of that time I fail to see how someone could see it any other way. It's really no different here. There are some things I don't agree with but understand, and there's others I disagree with that really make no sense to me. I guess that is what makes it fun...or maddening.

Politics is actually a big interest of mine and I know exactly what you mean. It can be fun when learning of another person belief that is different from your own, but when it doesn't make any sense in our own head it can drive us nuts.

WOW...That didn't take long... Me and Cory AGREE on something!!!!!

Couldn't agree more about the Mike Sherman comment. Sherman was in awe of Favre. Sherman was the wrong type of coach for Brett Favre. That comment, sadly, was echoed by a lot of fans and that just drives me nuts. Sherman was an enabler. He would've fit right into Anna Nicole Smith's posse.

Lol that was a good line about Anna Nicole. I wonder if Sherman was the father? nah, nevermind anyways...I remember this past year against minnesota at lambeau favre heaving up an awful throw towards Jennings on what appeared to be a major miscomunication between the two and as he was explaining it to MM...McCarthy kind of interrupted him, walked away shaking his head saying "its 7-6 with alot of ballgame to go" in a fustrated tone and everyone knew exactly what MM meant after hearing that. Favre then proceeded to basically lead GB to TWO gamewinning drives(Franks fumbled going in for the td on one drive). I think that is kind of some form of evidence of what Favre needs to hear to perform at his best.