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This explains the Packers running game

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Forget Favre, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. dansz15

    dansz15 Cheesehead

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    I have been waiting/hoping/praying they would get a game breaker. I like Nick Perry but how nice would it be to trade up and get a Doug Martin type back last year? Granted we'd lose Hayward but still...

    In the NFL you can't turn crap into gold (use whatever analogy you want I am trying to keep this PG). I do like Alex Green but as a #2 change of pace back. Starks doesn't have it. The second GB gets a better RB and can run the ball, they will have one of the most lethal well balanced offenses in the NFL and Rodgers will stop getting sacked as much. I can't wait for the day that safeties don't play deep against us. Benson wasn't the answer either. They need an good young running back that isn't 30 years old on FA or a historically crappy team (see: Jackson, Steven). We'll see.
     
  2. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I like Kendall Hunter or Ben Tate...both guy's who are young good runners who can play all three downs. Most importantly they are cheap. I'd trade for one of these two in a hearbeat.
     
  3. dansz15

    dansz15 Cheesehead

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    Tate is worth a 2nd rounder right now. I think his audition in Foster's absence proved he can be a top level back. Totally agree with you on that.
     
  4. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Thompson also drafted Brandon Jackson in the second round (#63) of the 2007 draft. He's also drafted 7 OL within the first 4 rounds of the 8 drafts he's conducted.

    Someone mentioned Green is coming off knee surgery from last year and I should have taken that into account before declaring he can't be the workhorse back. It still doesn't look to me like he can, but less than one year away from knee surgery probably makes a difference. I'd really like to see Starks take over as the first & second down RB if he's in game shape. Regarding a trade my bet is Thompson thinks the teams RB situation is better than it was in 2010 and he didn't make a move then.
     
  5. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Great point, and this is one of the lone areas where I think that TT could take some lessons from Ron Wolf. Old Ronnie was never afraid to bring in low-priced free agents, or even wheel a trade together. Some of those "nobody" acquisitions turned into solid backups and even a few contributors - ahhh Tootie Robbins. TT sometimes sits on his hands longer than most, waiting for his draft picks to pan out or fail. Bringing in some outside competition can be beneficial.

    If one didn't have to give up much money or draft picks, I'd be in favor of one of the guys that rodell330 listed above. My only hesitation comes from analyzing schemes. Some guys work very well in one scheme and not in another. I know that's part of what keeps TT at bay in the FA markets. Special players can be special anywhere. Regular "good" football players often benefit from the schemes and teammates that surround them, and may be prone to failure with another team. It's all part of rolling the dice sometimes.
     
  6. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    So let me ask you guy's this then. A guy like Ben Tate who is young, seems prety durable, and actually looks good in the zone blocking scheme which we run would this guy warrant at least a second round pick? My response would be what time does the next flight leave Houston to Green Bay. He's not as smooth as Foster when it comes to running style... but he's bigger, and just as quick to the hole from what i've seen on tape and rarely did i see him get blown up in the backfield. A good guy to compare him to would actually be Terell Davis. I see alot of similarites as far as running style and now that i think about it Denver ran the zone blocking scheme to.

    Would be lovely to have our own Terell Davis...man he ran all over us in the super bowl.
     
  7. Wills29

    Wills29 Cheesehead

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    As I was reading the other posts I was going to comment on Green's style right now and you stated it perfectly. Right now I see Green as a player with 4-5 games under his belt and is learning how to become a RB in the NFL. I think he has the ability, but right now it just seems like he hits the called hole and there is none of the "read the defense" instincts needed to gain more yards. Obviously it's frustrating to witness for all of us. As for Starks, I just feel at times he's too slow or over thinks and it looks like he's running in place.
     
  8. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Two problems with that.

    1) Who says Houston is even willing to part with him for a 2nd round pick? Maybe they think he's worth a 1 and a 3. He was originally a 2nd round pick. A good team like GB would have to trade more/higher picks because each pick projects to the end of the round, based on their expected records/playoff chances.

    2) He already has two years on his body. While not "old" even for a running back, it's older than other positions.

    One might argue that TT over-values his draft picks (I don't think he does, but the point is at least arguable), but based on your willingness to trade a 2nd rounder tells me you under-value them. That 2 could be the next Clay Matthews, Ray Lewis, or even Chad Clifton, all of which would be more valuable than a running back.
     
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  9. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Good catch on Brandon Jackson. Here is some more draft fodder that I've collected and analyzed over time:

    Total Draft Picks:
    Ted Thompson - 8 drafts - 76 picks used - 9.5 picks per draft
    Mike Sherman - 3 drafts - 21 picks used - 7.0 picks per draft
    Ron Wolf - 10 drafts - 91 picks used - 9.1 picks per draft (96 picks if you count the last 12 round draft in 1992)

    Percentage of Picks by Position:
    ____TT____MS____RW____
    QB---7%------5%--------7%
    RB---5%------5%--------9%
    FB---3%------0%--------3%
    WR--12%-----14%------19%
    TE---7%------0%--------3%
    OL--20%-----14%-------16%
    DL--17%------24%------12%
    LB--12%------14%------12%
    DB--17%------19%------16%
    K----1%-------0%-------0%
    P----0%-------5%-------2%


    Average Draft Round by Position:
    ___TT________MS________RW____
    WR - 3.7_____P - 3.0_____DB - 3.3
    LB - 3.8_____DB - 3.5_____P - 3.5
    DB - 4.0____RB - 4.0_____DL - 3.7
    OL - 4.3____LB - 4.3_____OL - 3.9
    QB - 4.4____DL - 4.4_____TE - 4.3
    RB - 4.5____WR - 5.0_____LB - 4.5
    DL - 4.5____QB - 5.0_____FB - 5.0
    TE - 5.4____OL - 6.3_____RB - 5.0
    FB - 5.5____FB - n/a_____WR - 5.1
    K - 6.0____TE - n/a_____QB - 5.7
    P - n/a_____K - n/a_____K - n/a

    It's interesting to contrast both the frequency in which a position was targeted in the draft and then the priority it was given based on the round. Further fodder for the great running game debate, is that Green Bay has not drafted a true starting running back since Dorsey Levens in 1994. Edgar Bennett was drafted two years early in 1992. One could argue that Ron Wolf used his 6th round draft choice in 2000 to trade for Ahman Green, but the fact remains that all of our starting RBs since Dorsey Levens have come via trade or free agency. Guys like Brandon Jackson and Najeh Davenport did get starts, but never panned out as true starters. It remains to be seen how a guy like Alex Green pans out.
     
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  10. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    yea "could be" .....i like to know what i'm getting. I know Ben Tate would be an upgrade, what i don't know is if there is a Ray Lewis, or Clay Matthews in the 2nd round. That's hit or miss... I'll take my chances with Tate.
     
  11. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    I don't doubt that Tate would be an upgrade. I'm concerned that we'd be far over paying to get him. Again, he was a second round pick. Assuming that Houston is even willing to deal him, why would they let him go for just a second? And "just a second" is kind of a misnomer. A second round pick is generally quite valuable.

    No team would be stupid enough to trade young, ascending talent, particularly a team that is contending. We'd have to "make it rain," as the kids say, just to get Houston to listen. As before, I'm guessing a 1 and a 3 minimum. Why? Supply and demand.
     
  12. Grave

    Grave Cheesehead

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    Benson only averaged 3.5 ypc. He had 1 td. Not exactly Jim Taylor.
     
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  13. Passepartout

    Passepartout Happy Memorial Day!

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    Tate is good. Not the best. But to be an elite RB, you have to average about at least 4.0+ or more a gain!
     
  14. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Name the RB's on the last 6 or 7 Super Bowl winning teams. Heck, go back to the 3 that NE won in a 4 year span from the 2001-2004 seasons.

    They weren't thouroughbreads. We're "lottery picks".

    What McCarthy wants, and wanted with Benson, is a guy who can last, be durable.
    Because then he can improve, get better as games get bigger into January. He thought he had that in Benson, til everyone dropped in Indy.

    Our bad "luck" continues.

    I agree with the number cruncher cite from above from Football Outsiders or Pro Football Focus which broke down the film, stats, and concluded that this offensive line "sucks".
    Bottom-10 in both run & bad do constitute as "sucks" IMO. I also think much of this falls on the OL coach.
     
  15. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Never said he was Jim Taylor. However, he was much better than what we now have at running back.
     
  16. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Lot of work here, El Guapo; thank you. Interesting that TT favors both lines over backs and receivers much more than Wolf. It fits with the idea that winning football depends on controlling the line of scrimmage more than anything else. But it would be nice to have a great runner behind an o line that can block.
     
  17. milani

    milani Cheesehead

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    You are all correct about Green and also correct about our O- line. Peterson would even have difficulty.
    But the run game takes committment. This means not only on Sunday but throughout the week. With Lombardi Packer practice sessions were boring except for his ranting and raving. The offense would practice a few basic run plays over and over and over until it was perfect. I doubt MM has his offense even come close to that.
    To make the running game work it takes all 11 players to execute their precise role. Offenses take this for granted nowadays. They think they need one block and some great athlete will bust loose and that's a running game.

    Paul Hornung and Jimmy Taylor were great backs but they were not quite at the echelon of Jim Brown in those days. But when you look at how the team's rushing numbers stood right up at the top it tells you that there were other players involved. And we know who they were. The running game operates like a well tuned and designed machine. And when it works it is a thing of beauty.
     
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  18. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Absolutely correct. I've read that Lombardi had 17 offensive plays. MM has hundreds. The game has progressed since the 60s, but the concept of running a play (pass or run), and running it well, never changes.
     
  19. milani

    milani Cheesehead

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    And what's that old adage? Practice makes Perfect? They got so good at it they could run those few plays with their eyes closed.
     
  20. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I agree that neither was jim brown, bc I'm such a fan of Taylor I had to mention he was the only back to steal a rushing title away from the great one.
     
  21. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    “Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.” – Vince Lombardi. That’s what all the ranting and raving was about. :D
    - - -

    We've gone 'round and 'round on this. IMO the Packers running game has to get better but the evidence shows us it doesn't have to be better than it was when Starks took over the RB job in 2010. While there is certainly a symbiotic relationship between the two, like it or not, the precision passing game is much more important than the running game.
     
  22. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Do our current Packers team run a Lombardi sweep, or a version of it?
     
  23. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Yes and no.

    NO: In the modern game, sweeps don't work as well because defenders are too fast. The NFL just doesn't use them anymore. In a way, sweeps have gone the way of the Wing-T offense.

    YES: You could say the Outside-Zone that the Packers (and Colts under Payton Manning) run is directly descended from The Packer Sweep.

    The phrase "Run To Daylight" is a zone concept and works the same in the sweep as it does in an outside zone. Simplified, the let say the call is "Sweep Right" or "Outside Zone Right." After taking the hand off, toss, or pitch, the back moves to the right behind a wall of blockers. When a crease (Daylight) is found or created by the offensive line, the back puts his foot in the ground and heads for that crease.
     
  24. UpDownEndAround

    UpDownEndAround Cheesehead

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    I agree Green has the most potential upside of any RB we have and does need the reps, but I think Starks should be getting the majority of carries right now based on his track record (he looks healthy to me). I don't think we'll be looking for big name help from the outside and if Green maintains the majority of the carries for us, he should only get better with time.
     
  25. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    When I saw the title of this thread I half expected to see a photo of a pair of cleats with the laces tied together.
     

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