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the root of the problem ...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by mike bat, Sep 21, 2009.

  1. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    I don't think many fans are calling for TT to be deep-sixed as much as they want some answers as to why our pretty solid team plays so inconsistently.

    One example that leaves me scratching my head is why TT chose this draft of all the previous five to move up - and select a linebacker??? Why not offensive line? I'm fine with Raji because Monroe was taken a pick earlier, but why not move up to get a guy like Oher or take Britton in round 2? At least provide an impression that you're at least attempting to improve the O-line. That one really seems odd to me.
     
  2. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    You have to read this post and view the table charted out

    Welcome to the PackersNews.net Community Message Board :: View topic - Packers OL Draft Status

     
  3. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    We hear so much ragging on Thompson but there's somebody in the shadows not getting much discussion: the head coach. Here's the man responsible for getting production out of his coaches and players. Here's the man responsible for development. Here's the man who sets the game plans and calls the plays and pick his lineups. Here's the man who has to be the motivator and teacher. When it was evident the Packers were going to lose Tauscher to the knee injury who convinced TT that Barbre & Giacomini were good enough and ready enough to go? Who decided to move Spitz to starting center and Wells to back-up before ota's even began; even though for 3 years Wells at center and Spitz at RG, but availabe on the left, were the interior of a line of one of the NFL's top ranked offenses? Wells did more than play the positon; he was the unit leader on the field and the sideline. Clifton getting hurt was unforeseen but almost predictable. He was over 30 and had questionble knees last year. So who failed to have a solid, emergency back-up plan ready and in place for such a contingency as happened last sunday at that position? McCarthy's credit for 2007 is going to run out if this team fails again in '09. Dan Devine had a 10-4 division title winning team his second year and went 5-7-2 & 6-8 the next two. Lindy Infante was 10-6 in his second year and 6-10 & 4-12 the next two. Mike Sherman had 4 straight playoff teams, 3 straight NFC North titleists and ended up 4-12 in 2005. McCarthy was 13-3 his second year, 6-10 last year and ? in 2009.
     
  4. JeffQuery

    JeffQuery Banned Banned

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    Hmm. All I can say is that Sherman didn't get the same consideration and he won playoff games. And believe me, I'm no Sherman fan.

    All I'm saying is is how much time is enough time?

    If they tank this year, I say that's enough time for the Ted Thompson experiment.
     
  5. Zeppelinelite51

    Zeppelinelite51 Cheesehead

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    that being said. We could be Detroit lions fans..
     
  6. JeffQuery

    JeffQuery Banned Banned

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    That's an erroneous argument.

    Bring in a guy who's not afraid of using all the tools available to him as a GM. That includes free agency.

    Look at the Giants who brought in Reese from Tennessee 3 years ago. They've gotten better with a new GM.

    Are you saying that Ted Thompson is irreplaceable?

    I don't agree with that at all.

    It is also a fallacy that Thompson had to "gut" the Packer team he inherited.

    That is just the way he (Thompson) chose to go about it.
    It wasn't the only way.
     
  7. DILLIGAFF

    DILLIGAFF Cheesehead

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    The Packers have a top 10 offensive line by order of the draft. From this only one of the following can be true:

    A: TT has used high enough draft picks to have a good O-line and has drafted wisely.

    B: The coaching staff has failed to use these good and high enough draft picks to mold into a solid offensive line.

    At times I hate number games like these, numbers are not human and can decieve. This does show some light on maybe the true problem, MM and staff.
     
  8. Hobbes09

    Hobbes09 Cheesehead

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    Experiment? What experiment? There is no experiment here and thinking like this is why so many things, not just in football, fail. If it's not working right now? Get rid of it. This impatience and willingness to replace, replace, replace only creates chaos which only hurts the team.

    Yet what was seen as such an issue with his choices? OL? Keep in mind this is much the same line as was seen in 07 which did so well.

    Then I don't think you understand the situation Sherman left Thompson in. The Packers were in a critical situation with the salary cap when Thompson came. A lot of good players wanted bigger contracts and the Packers quite simply had no room for it. More, they were a declining team. This was a team which needed lots of space to rebuild yet it had none since Sherman did not handle the salary anywhere near competently.

    Maybe he didn't have to gut the team, like you say. After all, he could have legitimately kept a couple of those he'd gotten rid of and been able stay within the cap space. But then needs which were already showing would still be declining and we'd have little space to rebuild, as the team had sorely needed.
     
  9. JeffQuery

    JeffQuery Banned Banned

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    I hate to tell you this, but the O-Line didn't do so well in '07.

    Mr. Favre covered up for alot of sins that year.

    In fact, we're seeing that fact right now, and I believe it will start to dawn on the rest of Packer nation pretty soon now.
     
  10. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    How so? I am asking questions...Some people want Ted gone and that is fine..but if you want him gone then do you want the players he drafted gone too?

    If you say yes, then how long would it take to rebuild the roster?

    If you say no, then are you admitting that the players he drafted are worthy?


    I agree that he needs to use free agency MORE...He did with Woody and Pickett I do not know why he is so worried...So we agree there




    How in the HELL do you jump so far off a ledge to come to that conclusion? Stop putting words in my mouth.....I would be more okay with him being fired if this team falls flat this season..Will I spend every waking hour whining and crying and bitching if it doesnt happen??? nope...There are about 20 that do that now on Bretts site :yu:




    I think some players had to be let go...Wahle could been kept according to Andrew Brandt...But that was the ONLY player he mentioned....

    Face it, for all the things people want Ted to do, Sherman did those EXACT things (or was it Brett wanted them done?) and seriously how did it work out? How many SB did the Packers win doing it "your way"

    My thought at the time was okay....It was not working, so fix it...I firmly believe that if our D played at least half as good as it did in 07, and Mason makes those 2 FG, this team was going to be 10-6 last year and probably either win division, or get the wild card..
     
  11. mike bat

    mike bat Cheesehead

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    thank you ^^ i agree 100 with you Jeff ... i dont want any players gone ... i dont point the finger at any of the players at all ... i believe they are good players ,, just lacking coaching and direction ... and i will also say i do believe some of this blame has to fall on mm too ... he is always tryin to point out players and say this that and the other ... i dont like him as a leader .. if he isnt a leader than why is he a coach .. all im saying is ,, if we have to chalk up another loosing season why not get a fresh GM here in green bay to save the up coming draft and up coming seasons ... i dont believe if we switch gm and head coach we will have another 3 seasons void of playoffs ... i really think the whole Brett vs TT and MM saga split the packer nation ... i also believe TT and MM have to answer WHY ... its becoming clear that TT and MM made the wrong choice ... befor with brett we could cover or holes ,, now we are exposed for the team we always have been for many years ... id bet if we got a new GM here and coach if that GM seen fit we could be back in the playoffs that same year ... these are just my thoughts ,, but i agree with bolth comments made by Jeff ...
     
  12. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Stop the lies LOL

    Philly game, and Washington game Brett covered up? Dallas game? 1st Chicago game?

    Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    :stinker:

    Go re-watch those games, how many TDS in FOUR games did he have??

    ONE TD 1 td in 4 games and HE covered up for the offensive line??

    How many ints? 7, in 4 games... and that Washington game he should have had at least 4..

    Philly game
    GB: B.Favre 23-42-206-0-1


    1st Bear game
    GB: B.Favre 29-40-322-1-2


    Washington
    GB: B.Favre 19-37-188-0-2


    Dallas
    GB: B.Favre 5-14-56-0-2..



    Yeah he covered up for them alright..

    So instead of just doing the automatic typing of Brett was GOD, look up your **** to verify your right, other wise you might look stupid

    Now.......with that said, he got a W in more then a few of those games in 07...

    SD, KC, Denver come to mind...So he desvere lot of credit for winning those games..
     
  13. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Then fire MM???
     
  14. mike bat

    mike bat Cheesehead

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    How so? I am asking questions...Some people want Ted gone and that is fine..but if you want him gone then do you want the players he drafted gone too?

    If you say yes, then how long would it take to rebuild the roster?

    If you say no, then are you admitting that the players he drafted are worthy?

    i disagree with that ... i say keep the players because this team needs to gel ... not because TT is a genus that picked the cream of the crop ,, because he isnt a genus and if i had to grade him on picks id give him a d ... i dont wanna arguee his picks ,, but they were shabby at best ... then the hairl pick is just the cherry on top ... we have money tied up in these players ,, thats the main reason i believe we have to keep these players if TT goes ... that being said if a new GM came in and wanted to cut a few so be it .. green bay is a foot ball town ,, TT better remember that ... we need to win and not like we beat the bears ,, we need to stick it to some of these teams in our devision ...

    and LONG TIME FAN ,, i know we bolth agree the Packers need to win some games here ... im not writing the team off or jumping ship since all i have ever been is a packers fan ... i just want the fans to take a seconed and think about what another loosing season would mean to green bay ..
     
  15. mike bat

    mike bat Cheesehead

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    well my main concern is the draft and free agents // thats why i believe tt needs to go ... MM is so so ,, but i believe if we got a new GM they would have to make that choice .. i would rather see a new coach here in green bay ... i think MM is soft ,, hes looking like sherman more and more every day ... we need a coach that will ride these players ... i feel MM has alotta favs on the team ,, so im not sure he is treating all the players the same ... we need a no noncents coach here ... a coach will play no favs ... i hear coach cowher is looking to getting back in the nfl ... he would be a good fit here .. i bet our O line and running game would be outta this world ...
     
  16. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thats horse ****...

    You want them to stay so they can gel if Ted is fired? LOL

    Truly read that and think about how silly it sounds?

    The Harrel pick? Stop pounding on it, I am pretty sure he agrees it looks to be a bust and is just as ticked off about it as you are...Again if he and the staff feel that a player just isnt going to work out that player is gone..See Smith being cut this year to prove my point


    So you want to win but want to win by 20 or 30? Cuz the win vs the Bears was not good enough?


    I am pretty sure Ted knows GB is a football town, he does have a SB ring for when he was here with the team in 96 and 97
     
  17. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I have it on good authority that Mm does ride the players, he just wont do it in public.
     
  18. mike bat

    mike bat Cheesehead

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    So instead of just doing the automatic typing of Brett was GOD, look up your **** to verify your right, other wise you might look stupid

    im not saying brett was god or is god ... just that we had an edge with a vet QB here in green bay ... Brett could read Ds good and make quick plays when he had to ... with that you will toss some picks ... when your being rushed game after game there will be some bad throws ...
     
  19. mike bat

    mike bat Cheesehead

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    Thats horse ****...

    You want them to stay so they can gel if Ted is fired? LOL


    why would we get rid of all of our players and start all the way over ,, makes no sense ...i believe all this team needs is a few break through players and a hunger to win ... lets be honist here ,, TT isnt going to use our top picks to get cream of the crop guys in here ... and he isnt going to pick up some high end free agents ,, thats clear ... so my question is where does that leave this team ??? you have to admit TT made some bad choices ... and im not saying the bears win wasnt good enough ,, just that i want this team to be the domanation force it once was ...
     
  20. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Your okay with the players that are here now...The ones TED DRAFTED

    Only want Ted gone cuz he wont use free agency?

    We knew that going in, we seen it for years..

    And stop with he wont pick up high end free agents...Woodson, Pickkett? ( yeah yeah, that was 3 or 4 years ago) but he DOES do it..Forgot to add Kamp, technically he wasnt a free agent, he was just hours from being one.

    Of course he made bad choices, ALL gms make bad choices..But this is the same guy that got the team to the NFCCG, and if not for some BAD play by a few key players they would of have went to the SB..


    Again if this team falls flat, Ted should be gone..

    But I am not going to sit here 2 weeks into the season and call for his head..I wont even do it if they miss the playoffs...I will want him gone, but wont demand it every day, you know why? You and I can not and will not EVER be able to change the board of directors minds to fire him, or the mind of Mark Murphy..

    So since we can never do something about it, I REFUSE to allow myself to get so upset that it consumes me every day...

    Where as there are some ( manly Bretts fans on his forum, and a few speckled here and there) that act that way.
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    that wasnt to you, it was to Jeff, claiming that Brett over came the short comings of the line issues in 07, I PROVED to him that at least 4 games Brett did nothing to over come the line...The D and special teams MADE the team win those 4 games
     
  22. JeffQuery

    JeffQuery Banned Banned

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    I don't understand why it has to be so black and white?

    Yes, the defense did help win a few games. Good for them. Brett was harrassed so much in those first 7 games that he needed another part of the team to step up. But that leaves 12 more games in the season. Favre played well that year. I don't understand why you're getting so upset. It doesn't change the fact that the O-Line wasn't that good that year, but they still got it done, unlike now.

    My original point was that Brett was able to overcome the shortcomings of the O-Line by his ability and experience in reading defenses and making the right reads, and getting rid of the ball right away. Aaron isn't doing that this year, imo.

    So, it's a little disingenuous, in my view, to say that Ted Thompson had the O-Line fixed in '07, that's all.

    My assessment of Ted Thompson as a GM is that he is a collector of talent. I don't think he has what it takes to build a championship caliber team. There are some good players that he picked, but there are many that are just ok. You need to have a few impact players if you want to reach that elite level. And I just don't see that on this team.
     
  23. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I NEVER said Ted fixed the line in 07...

    To me YOU are putting it as black and white, by saying Brett was here and that is the ONLY reason for the 13-3.

    Your saying Brett over came the line in 07, 4 games with stats proved he didn't..Its much DEEPER then only Brett got the team to 13-3..

    I get upset because, people want to say Brett ALONE made the team get that 13-3 and record which is one of the biggest blind homerism I have seen in this whole Brett vs Rodgers...

    Your saying it your self...Brett got harassed 1st 7 games....1 td and 5 ints in 3 of those games...Almost saying that is the excuse for his bad play and I AGREE. Hqard for a q/b to perform at a high level if running around after 2 secs.

    Yet Rodgers getting harassed and people ( not saying you) are saying how much he sucks and can't handle the pressure..

    Either its okay for Brett and Rodgers or it isn't okay for both..

    Stop the effing double standard talk.
     
  24. JeffQuery

    JeffQuery Banned Banned

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    You have to admit that Favre is better at handling that pressure than Rodgers is.

    If you don't, imo, that is blind homerism for Rodgers.

    Brett was able to make teams pay if they wanted to blitz that year. Even without a running game.

    They are not equivalent.
     
  25. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yup I agree and that comes with experience..

    But if Brett is so much better at it, then why did he have 1 td and 5 ints in 07 in a 3 or 4 game stretch when according to you, that line was just as bad
     

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