The problem of franchising Flynn.

[GreenBlood]

I will be shocked if Flynn is not tagged.

Prepare to be shocked then, because I doubt it'll happen, especially with Finley and Wells not yet under contract.

 

[AmishMafia]

Everyone is on the trading block, including Aaron Rodgers... But NOT FOR 2 FIRST ROUND PICKS! If someone offered FOUR first round picks and 3 or 4 second rounders, I'd consider it.

The trade would make the Hershel Walker deal look like something off the discount rack.

Prepare to be shocked then, because I doubt it'll happen, especially with Finley and Wells not yet under contract.

Finley is special and Wells was the best on an average OL (although I think at least 2 will surpass him next season). I expect that we will sign both of these players. I would probably used the tag on Finley if we can't sign him, but I think the value of Wells to the team is exceeded by the trade value of Flynn.

 

[TJV]

As much as I was hoping to see a tag and trade deal, I don’t think it will happen. Aaron Shockley hit on one reason, as Andrew Brandt explained, “Finally, the NFLPA has expressed that the spirit of the Tag -- if not spelled out in writing -- should be to sign, not trade the player (the Matt Cassel “tag and trade” by the Patriots was differentiated by Tom Brady’s rehabilitation from a season-ending injury). Although proof and enforcement may be difficult, the Packers are not a team to test the outer limits of the rules when it comes to the league or union.”
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Packer-Ponderings-to-Come.html&page=2

But Tom Silverstein reports what I think is a more important reason: The Packers have $113.3M committed to the 2012 cap and while they can and will free up some room, they probably won’t want to free up enough to do the tag and trade. Unfortunately I think we’ll have to get used to the idea of receiving a comp pick for Flynn.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

As smart as Ted is, he's also respectful. Packers will not tag Flynn for a few reasons.
1. Too much risk. Tag him for $14 Million, then IF he signs, we either pay him or trade him, and Flynn can really have an effect on that by refusing to rework a deal with teams he wouldn't wanna go to. Teams wouldn't trade anything for a 1 year, 14 Million dollar contract for a truly unproven QB. (although I think he will be great)

2. Ted respects the process. He payed Matt Flynn to be a back up, and paid McCarthy to make him the best back up in the league. He received both, he didn't do that to eventually use the guy to get more picks. Although it may be a smart business move, that isn't the Packers M.O.

what did Kolb get. 60 millon with no one other than the Cards going for him. Flynn is gold.

 

[AaronShockley]

Everyone is on the trading block, including Aaron Rodgers... But NOT FOR 2 FIRST ROUND PICKS! If someone offered FOUR first round picks and 3 or 4 second rounders, I'd consider it.

Carson Palmer Package was like 2 1st round, 2 2nd round and a conditional pick? For a QB that hadn't done anything, other than 1 good season, and no telling how ready he was to play.

So if you look at that I think an offer like this would be the standard, so I don't even think that's a possibility for a trade. The problem is 4 first round picks over 4 years is obviously gonna help the team, on top of your own 1st round picks, but by time your drafting those 4th 1st rounders your first set is already up for contract. Nobody would ever take a deal like that, because although it may be what Rodgers is worth, it's almost like getting too much desert at a buffet. Looked great, but what the **** am i gonna do with this now?

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Finley is special and Wells was the best on an average OL (although I think at least 2 will surpass him next season). I expect that we will sign both of these players. I would probably used the tag on Finley if we can't sign him, but I think the value of Wells to the team is exceeded by the trade value of Flynn.

I agree with you. Finley has a great chance of being tagged. I would rather see Finley resigned, at a reasonable rate, before the franchise tag even becomes a concern.

I don't see a scenario where Wells gets tagged. He plays center and is valuable to the Packers, but how many teams will be bidding for a 31 year old center?

 

[AaronShockley]

Finley shouldn't get tagged. Packers have too much argument over him. Dropped passes, uninspired second half of the season, how could Finley get them to a point of tagging him? Nobody else is going to pay him what he wants, including the Packers so he has absolutely bargaining power to drive a contract up, and thus get to the Franchise Tag. He will get resigned, and hopefully refocused. I hope it really does just come down to complacency and contract distractions for Finley, because both can be fixed.

Wells, he's going nowhere. He wants to be a Packer, and the Packers want him. The only way he leaves is if he demands too much money, something the Packers already don't have a lot of.

 

[bozz_2006]

I'm with you on this one, Aaron. Bt I wanted to chime in that even if he wants too much money, I doubt he gets it. Anywhere. The question is whether he'll be butt-hurt over the Packers' offer and decides he won't play here. I do not see that happening though. I think we will see Finley singed to a modest two year deal. Maybe three. Giving him a chance to prove he's capable of playing the way he says he can play, and setting himself up for a heftier contract in the not-so-distant future m

 

[Croak]

I'm with you on this one, Aaron. Bt I wanted to chime in that even if he wants too much money, I doubt he gets it. Anywhere. The question is whether he'll be butt-hurt over the Packers' offer and decides he won't play here. I do not see that happening though. I think we will see Finley singed to a modest two year deal. Maybe three. Giving him a chance to prove he's capable of playing the way he says he can play, and setting himself up for a heftier contract in the not-so-distant future m

Good points all. The other factor is his Agent. Will the Agent *convince* him to be butt hurt over not getting a big deal? According to the Packer Report there is scuttle butt around the locker room that a tag might not happen on Finley.

 

[Croak]

Prepare to be shocked then, because I doubt it'll happen, especially with Finley and Wells not yet under contract.

I just saw this on the ESPN NFC North blog which supports your comment; "The basics: The Packers have about $113.3 million already allocated for a 2012 cap expected to remain around $120 million. That means they have around $7 million in wiggle room. But using their tag on Flynn would require a $14 million commitment, requiring them to clear at least another $7 million -- and that's if they don't do any other contracts all offseason."

 

[DoddPower]

I just saw this on the ESPN NFC North blog which supports your comment; "The basics: The Packers have about $113.3 million already allocated for a 2012 cap expected to remain around $120 million. That means they have around $7 million in wiggle room. But using their tag on Flynn would require a $14 million commitment, requiring them to clear at least another $7 million -- and that's if they don't do any other contracts all offseason."

But the Packers would not be on the hook to pay Flynn any money, especially 14 million if a trade is agreed upon before the deal is made, correct? I'm no expert on this, but let's say we cut Clifton and Driver giving us the room technically to pay Flynn. A trade has been worked out, Flynn is tagged, and instantly traded. Essentially, the Packers would receive something for Flynn, whatever that may be, and not have to pay him any of that tag money as it's now his new teams responsibility.

As others have said, this situation seems unlikely, but if Flynn is tagged, it will be worked out to where he will be traded and the Packers will not be paying him. Therefore, whatever money is involved isn't much of an issue (for the Packers anyway). Everyone would be in agreement on whats going to happen and Flynn would work out a new long-term contract with his new team. Probably not going to happen, but it will be more of a factor of teams interest in him rather than money. If 2-3 teams are really interested in him, Ted could definitely make this work. It just depends on how many interested teams there are and if they want to risk not getting Flynn for whatever reason.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

But the Packers would not be on the hook to pay Flynn any money, especially 14 million if a trade is agreed upon before the deal is made, correct? I'm no expert on this, but let's say we cut Clifton and Driver giving us the room technically to pay Flynn. A trade has been worked out, Flynn is tagged, and instantly traded. Essentially, the Packers would receive something for Flynn, whatever that may be, and not have to pay him any of that tag money as it's now his new teams responsibility.

As others have said, this situation seems unlikely, but if Flynn is tagged, it will be worked out to where he will be traded and the Packers will not be paying him. Therefore, whatever money is involved isn't much of an issue (for the Packers anyway). Everyone would be in agreement on whats going to happen and Flynn would work out a new long-term contract with his new team. Probably not going to happen, but it will be more of a factor of teams interest in him rather than money. If 2-3 teams are really interested in him, Ted could definitely make this work. It just depends on how many interested teams there are and if they want to risk not getting Flynn for whatever reason.

The biggest issue to this whole thing I see is weather Ted would deny Matt going out onto the market and getting the best deal he can. Just seems that TT wouldn't do something like that.

 

[Raptorman]

But the Packers would not be on the hook to pay Flynn any money, especially 14 million if a trade is agreed upon before the deal is made, correct? I'm no expert on this, but let's say we cut Clifton and Driver giving us the room technically to pay Flynn. A trade has been worked out, Flynn is tagged, and instantly traded. Essentially, the Packers would receive something for Flynn, whatever that may be, and not have to pay him any of that tag money as it's now his new teams responsibility.

As others have said, this situation seems unlikely, but if Flynn is tagged, it will be worked out to where he will be traded and the Packers will not be paying him. Therefore, whatever money is involved isn't much of an issue (for the Packers anyway). Everyone would be in agreement on whats going to happen and Flynn would work out a new long-term contract with his new team. Probably not going to happen, but it will be more of a factor of teams interest in him rather than money. If 2-3 teams are really interested in him, Ted could definitely make this work. It just depends on how many interested teams there are and if they want to risk not getting Flynn for whatever reason.

One problem with tagging and trading Flynn. IT can only happen if Flynn signs right away. There is nothing that says he has to. Matter of fact, he does not need to sign until several months later. That being said, the Packers can't trade him until he signs, for that matter, I don't think they can even negotiate with other teams, the player has to, unless he has signed. You have to remember, this is not all in the Packers control, the player has some say in it.

 

[ivo610]

One problem with tagging and trading Flynn. IT can only happen if Flynn signs right away. There is nothing that says he has to. Matter of fact, he does not need to sign until several months later. That being said, the Packers can't trade him until he signs, for that matter, I don't think they can even negotiate with other teams, the player has to, unless he has signed. You have to remember, this is not all in the Packers control, the player has some say in it.

Cant get paid if you dont sign.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

One problem with tagging and trading Flynn. IT can only happen if Flynn signs right away. There is nothing that says he has to. Matter of fact, he does not need to sign until several months later. That being said, the Packers can't trade him until he signs, for that matter, I don't think they can even negotiate with other teams, the player has to, unless he has signed. You have to remember, this is not all in the Packers control, the player has some say in it.

That is something a lot of people are forgetting. Flynn can only count against the cap if he signs the franchise tag. The franchise tag only keeps the player under control of the team. The Packers and Flynn can agree to a cheaper deal and/or agree to a sign and trade. The franchise tag is a legit option.

 

[bozz_2006]

Cant get paid if you dont sign.

Right. Can't sign anywhere. Can't play. Players don't win the leverage battle in franchise tag fights.

 

[Raptorman]

Right. Can't sign anywhere. Can't play. Players don't win the leverage battle in franchise tag fights.

Actually, I disagree. It depends on which tag is applied. If the non-franchise tag is applied the player has the right to negotiate with any team. Now if that team does not want to give up two first round picks its a moot point. The Player does not have to sign the tag. The team cannot trade him because he is not under contract. Now what interesting is how do you interpret this passage from the CBA.

(k) Any Club designating a Franchise Player shall have until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on July 1 5 of the League Year (or, if July 1 5 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the first Monday thereafter) for which the designation takes effect to sign the player to a multiyear contract or extension. After that date, the player may sign only a one-year Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be extended until after the Club's last regular season game of that League Year.

Does that mean if he signs at the last minute and the team trades him, is the new team locked into that contract?
http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

 

[DoddPower]

One problem with tagging and trading Flynn. IT can only happen if Flynn signs right away. There is nothing that says he has to. Matter of fact, he does not need to sign until several months later. That being said, the Packers can't trade him until he signs, for that matter, I don't think they can even negotiate with other teams, the player has to, unless he has signed. You have to remember, this is not all in the Packers control, the player has some say in it.

I think this is pretty well understood. As I said in my previous post, before ANY of this business happened, a "gentlemen" agreement would be in place. Ted would find a trade partner that was willing to take a tagged Flynn, and he would then meet with Flynn to ensure his agreement. Everything would be in place before anything happens. The actual commencement of these actions would be more of a formality. Sure, I suppose Flynn could assure Thompson that he is OK with whatever deal might be worked out and then back out once Ted pushes it through, but I can't see that happening. He will either not agree to a potential deal that is on the table and nothing will happen, or he will and it will go through.

I think most NFL players understand that they aren't owed any favors from an organization, especially when you are a valuable asset. Working out a trade with someone like Miami should be find with Flynn, especially with the coaching changes there. Once again, I see this as an 80/20 split, that is, 80% of the time any trade will not be reached. However, it certainly is a possibility. It simply comes down to a teams interest and Flynn accepting the deal. Both would be hurdles, but IF they could be worked out, a deal could be reached. Will be very interesting to see for sure. I still expect Flynn to walk. We just have to hope at least one team falls in love with him and is willing to do whatever it takes to acquire his rights.

 

[AaronShockley]

I think this is pretty well understood. As I said in my previous post, before ANY of this business happened, a "gentlemen" agreement would be in place. Ted would find a trade partner that was willing to take a tagged Flynn, and he would then meet with Flynn to ensure his agreement. Everything would be in place before anything happens. The actual commencement of these actions would be more of a formality. Sure, I suppose Flynn could assure Thompson that he is OK with whatever deal might be worked out and then back out once Ted pushes it through, but I can't see that happening. He will either not agree to a potential deal that is on the table and nothing will happen, or he will and it will go through.

I think most NFL players understand that they aren't owed any favors from an organization, especially when you are a valuable asset. Working out a trade with someone like Miami should be find with Flynn, especially with the coaching changes there. Once again, I see this as an 80/20 split, that is, 80% of the time any trade will not be reached. However, it certainly is a possibility. It simply comes down to a teams interest and Flynn accepting the deal. Both would be hurdles, but IF they could be worked out, a deal could be reached. Will be very interesting to see for sure. I still expect Flynn to walk. We just have to hope at least one team falls in love with him and is willing to do whatever it takes to acquire his rights.

Wrong.

No team would ever willingly agree to get a guy via trade when they can get him via free agency for nothing but the contract.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

Wrong.

No team would ever willingly agree to get a guy via trade when they can get him via free agency for nothing but the contract.

They might if they wanted to avoid a bidding war. More than one team is going to have it's eye on Flynn. But all this is fantasy, TT is not going to Franchise Flynn unless he absolutely has a deal with another GM in advance.

 

[DoddPower]

Wrong.

No team would ever willingly agree to get a guy via trade when they can get him via free agency for nothing but the contract.

lol, it's not "wrong" at all. Just because a player enters free agency doesn't mean a respective team can get the player . . . at all. If he becomes a free agent, a team risks entering a bidding war with other teams and ultimately the possibility of not getting their player. If a team really and truly wants Flynn and thinks he is a franchise QB, you trade for him to guarantee you have the rights to that player. Once he enters the free agent market he could price himself out of a certain teams range quickly or simply decide to go elsewhere. This could mean a team is left without either of the top two QBs in the draft, and one of the top free agent QBs in Flynn which could ultimately mean yet another miserable season.

As I've said in my previous two posts, it all comes down to how much a team values him. That's something, at this point, none of us can truthfully speak of.

 

[AaronShockley]

Avoiding a bidding war is fine, but no team would avoid a bidding war by paying in picks for compensation in the magnitude of what Flynn will draw in that sense.

It's not football, it's business, there's a difference.

 

[fettpett]

Avoiding a bidding war is fine, but no team would avoid a bidding war by paying in picks for compensation in the magnitude of what Flynn will draw in that sense.

It's not football, it's business, there's a difference.

You realize that sign and trades happen ALL the time, Kolb, Cassel, Cory Williams, are three that happened in the last few years. Teams will do them, especially for QB's.

 

[AaronShockley]

I just think there's gonna be more to be given up to get Flynn after the Palmer deal.

 

[fettpett]

I just think there's gonna be more to be given up to get Flynn after the Palmer deal.

maybe, but that was a rash decision by Hue Jackman to stay relevant. Jason Campbell doesn't get hurt, Raiders make the playoffs with no issues.

Any deal that involves Flynn will be closer to Kolb's deal (though I doubt a player will be involved). If Ted was smart, he'd get the Dolphin's 1st and a conditional 3rd next year (that could be 2nd or 1st if Flynn did well or took the team to the playoffs.) He's done this kind of trade before.