The Official 2019 Packers Takes Thread

[R-E-L-A-X]

Hot take,
Packers are going to struggle early, especially in the passing game but as the season goes on MVS and Adams are going to be a top three WR duo in the NFL. The young receivers need to build the chemistry with Rodgers, they clearly didn't have it last year, but I think that a year to learn and a full offseason with a new young, creative coach is going to work wonders on the young guys. Also last take if the packers miss the playoffs again this year Gute is going to be on the hot seat.

 

[HardRightEdge]

This is often (always?) not true.

A dime linebacker is usually a 6th DB playing the role of a second linebacker in a given play.

I do not agree.

It is the roles that matter, not the positional designation of the player on the roster sheet, which is increasingly murky. If that 6th. DB is playing the role of second linebacker, that's a nickel defense with a hybrid ILB. Hybrid ILBs increasingly look like safeties, are often converted safeties, and may even say "S" on the roster sheet next to their name when that is not their role on a particular play.

A standard dime defense in standard terminology is a long yardage defense with 6 DBs playing DB positioning. It might be zone, man with double teams, or a zone/man combo. There's one ILB role, typically dropping into the middle zone, or dime with Greene playing ILB. There really isn't any way to tell the difference other than positional designations on the roster sheet which doesn't count for much.

If, for example, it is 3rd. and 4, there is a back 7 with Alexander/King/Jackson playing perimeter and slot corners, Burks is pulled from the game, Savage and Williams (or Greene) are playing coverage safety positioning, and Amos comes up in the box into ILB positioning, I don't care that the roster sheet has that "S" next to Amos' name. On that play, he is an ILB in a nickel defense, just as Burnett played before him.

Alternatively, if it is 3rd. and 25, there's a 4 across deep zone 15 and 20 yards deep, and a 3 across zone underneath with Green planted in the middle, feel free to call it quarters defense with 7 DBs or dime, whichever you prefer.

 

[Dantés]

I do not agree.

It is the roles that matter, not the positional designation of the player on the roster sheet, which is increasingly murky. If that 6th. DB is playing the role of second linebacker, that's a nickel defense with a hybrid ILB. Hybrid ILBs increasingly look like safeties, are often converted safeties, and may even say "S" on the roster sheet next to their name when that is not their role on a particular play.

A standard dime defense in standard terminology is a long yardage defense with 6 DBs playing DB positioning. It might be zone, man with double teams, or a zone/man combo. There's one ILB role, typically dropping into the middle zone, or dime with Greene playing ILB. There really isn't any way to tell the difference other than positional designations on the roster sheet which doesn't count for much.

If, for example, it is 3rd. and 4, there is a back 7 with Alexander/King/Jackson playing perimeter and slot corners, Burks is pulled from the game, Savage and Williams (or Greene) are playing coverage safety positioning, and Amos comes up in the box into ILB positioning, I don't care that the roster sheet has that "S" next to Amos' name. On that play, he is an ILB in a nickel defense, just as Burnett played before him.

Alternatively, if it is 3rd. and 25, there's a 4 across deep zone 15 and 20 yards deep, and a 3 across zone underneath with Green planted in the middle, feel free to call it quarters defense with 7 DBs or

We've had this conversation before. You're welcome to personally define these things in a way to suit yourself, but this isn't what the terms mean in the sport generally. So it's just important for people to understand that you're using the designations in a way that isn't typical.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You're welcome to personally define these things in a way to suit yourself, but this isn't what the terms mean in the sport generally.

I do not agree.

 

[gbgary]

Hot take,
Packers are going to struggle early, especially in the passing game but as the season goes on MVS and Adams are going to be a top three WR duo in the NFL. The young receivers need to build the chemistry with Rodgers, they clearly didn't have it last year, but I think that a year to learn and a full offseason with a new young, creative coach is going to work wonders on the young guys. Also last take if the packers miss the playoffs again this year Gute is going to be on the hot seat.

build chemistry? in a read-react/every-play-is-a-scramble-drill offense, like the last few years, chemistry is definitely important. the new O shouldn't be this dysfunctional. people simply need to get open on the called play (as they have), and rodgers simply needs to make the throws. if goff can do it, rodgers easily can. no chemistry needed. i also think gute's fine no matter what happens. he's done very well imo. if it fails on the field it's on the players and/or injuries. that said i don't think they'll fail.

my takes (before we've actually seen anything and injuries not being a factor): 10-6 is realistic and nfc north championship an outside possibility. gary and savage become fan favorites. aaron jones gets 1k+. alexander has an even better year. sternberger wins preseason mvp. lol

 

[Mondio]

Gute is not on any hotseat. He had a pretty good first draft and appears to have done well with his 2nd. If every single one of the FA signings tank because of anything besides injury and every draft pick fails, well maybe, but then judging from the feelings around here none of us will be allowed to have opinions going forward either since most of us agree that for the large part, Gute did well again this offseason.

 

[HardRightEdge]

They played Whitehead there in certain packages and they're basically the exact same size.

Whitehead is a good example, discussed in the past and again recently. He was an ILB on many of his snaps. Size doen't matter. Positional designation on the roster doesn't matter. Positioning and role on the field matters in what you call a player on any one particular play.

I wouldn't go as far as PFF in their excruciatingly fine distinctions in positional idntifications, coming up with 20-some distinct positions for Whitehead on his 75 snaps in last years Rams game, where their ILB vs. OLB distinctions might amount to a step inside the tackle vs. a step outside. Either way, he was the primary second ILB with Martinez in that game.

 

[Dantés]

I do not agree.

I know. But you're wrong. I don't know how else to say it.

It's like, if I said that to me the term "zone blocking scheme" means how teams block against zone, that might be how I like to define it but that isn't what it actually means.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I know. But you're wrong. I don't know how else to say it.

You can say it all you like, but your view is unconventional.

By your assessment, in those games where Burnett came up in the box with Martinez for most of his snaps, even wearing the speaker helmet for several games, calling the plays and and adjustments, the Packers were playing mostly dime and very little nickel. That makes no sense, and I don't know anybody but you who would characterize it that way.

Here's an example of how people talk about this except you:

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...ene-show-off-versatility-for-packers-defense/

"Greene, an undrafted safety who made the roster in 2018, surprised by playing some snaps as a hybrid linebacker Wednesday. It’s a spot in the defense previously occupied by Morgan Burnett, Josh Jones and Jermaine Whitehead, among others."

And if these players in these roles are conventionlly referred to as "hybrid linebackers", which in fact they are, then they are not DBs because they are not playing a DB role. And if they are not DBs, then their presence in those hybrid roles does not magically make a nickel defense into a dime where dime is characterized by everybody but you as 6 DBs.

I leave it at that barring new information. "You're wrong" does not qualify.

It's like, if I said that to me the term "zone blocking scheme" means how teams block against zone, that might be how I like to define it but that isn't what it actually means.

Actually, it is not like that at all. And you may not be aware, but the outside zone is nothing new to Packer football. The Packers have been running that in a couple variations a few times per game, sometimes a half dozen, for awhile now. I even did a breakdown on Williams runs behind outside zone year before last, referring to it as "stretch zone" given the variations. The Packers didn't bring in new OGs to handle an entirely different blocking scheme; they brought in to replace guys were not all that good at it among other considerations.

 

[Dantés]

You can say it all you like, but your view is unconventional.

By your assessment, in those games where Burnett came up in the box with Martinez for most of his snaps, even wearing the speaker helmet for several games, calling the plays and and adjustments, the Packers were playing mostly dime and very little nickel. That makes no sense, and I don't know anybody but you who would characterize it that way.

Here's an example of how people talk about this except you:

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...ene-show-off-versatility-for-packers-defense/

"Greene, an undrafted safety who made the roster in 2018, surprised by playing some snaps as a hybrid linebacker Wednesday. It’s a spot in the defense previously occupied by Morgan Burnett, Josh Jones and Jermaine Whitehead, among others."

And if these players in these roles are conventionlly referred to as "hybrid linebackers", which in fact they are, then they are not DBs because they are not playing a DB role. And if they are not DBs, then their presence in those hybrid roles does not magically make a nickel defense into a dime where dime is characterized by everybody but you as 6 DBs.

I leave it at that barring new information. "You're wrong" does not qualify.

Actually, it is not like that at all. And you may not be aware, but the outside zone is nothing new to Packer football. The Packers have been running that in a couple variations a few times per game, sometimes a half dozen, for awhile now. I even did a breakdown on Williams runs behind outside zone year before last, referring to it as "stretch zone" given the variations. The Packers didn't bring in new OGs to handle an entirely different blocking scheme; they brought in to replace guys were not all that good at it among other considerations.

I found you like fifteen links last time that affirmed my point. I'm not going to do it again. It obviously didn't work the first time.

Look, you're a very intelligent Packer fan. But you're wrong about this. I'm okay with that.

 

[GleefulGary]

Y'all need to get your joyful, jubilous hearts together and come up with more takes!

Be happy, y'all.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I found you like fifteen links last time that affirmed my point. I'm not going to do it again. It obviously didn't work the first time.

Look, you're a very intelligent Packer fan. But you're wrong about this. I'm okay with that.

I'll settle for your one favorite link.

 

[Dantés]

I'll settle for your one favorite link.

Here, I found the last time we had this discussion:

No, I would not call it dime if Burks was on the field, because 5 defensive backs is nickel, not dime.

You're confused about what dime means. Again, it's personnel, not alignment Just because you use a 6th DB in a LB role doesn't make it nickel. Almost all dime packages feature a DB in a linebacker role.

6 defensive backs on the field is dime personnel. Read about it:

Here: "The dime package refers to six defensive backs on the field at the same time. The defense now employs four down linemen, one linebacker and six defensive backs. It is a lot like the nickel package. The only difference is a sixth defensive back for the Sam linebacker. The nickel and dime now play the roles of the Will and Sam linebacker."

Here: "Just as five defensive backs is called the nickel package, six defensive backs is called a dime package."

Here: "A defensive scheme in which the coordinator calls for six defensive backs, usually substituting them in place of linebackers."

Here: "A dime back is a sixth defensive back and he’s going to replace either a linebacker or a possibly even a lineman in certain situations."

Here: "a dime package, or personnel groupings with six defensive backs."

Here: "the dime package features six defensive backs."

Here: "In their dime package, the Steelers use their nickel base, but replace a LB (typically Vince Williams) with another DB (William Gay)."

Here: "Dime+" includes any package with more than five defensive backs."

Here: "The dime package, which features six defensive backs"

 

[Deleted member 6794]

He would be playing the same position that Jermaine Whitehead did, and Whitehead was 195 lbs.

Follow the Mike Pettine trend, man.

They played Whitehead there in certain packages and they're basically the exact same size.

While that's true Whitehead didn't perform at a high level and wasn't good enough to be retained. It seems the Packers plan on using Greene in that role as well but I would definitely prefer to have a bigger player lined up there.

Josh Jones sticks around long enough to get enough playing time to look below average and then be traded

Jones has already received enough snaps to make an impression over the first two seasons in the league. He just didn't make them count.

The young receivers need to build the chemistry with Rodgers, they clearly didn't have it last year, but I think that a year to learn and a full offseason with a new young, creative coach is going to work wonders on the young guys.

Both MVS and EQ actually put up pretty decent numbers for rookies selected on the third day of the draft. They definitely have room to improve but it was unrealistic to expect them to do any better in 2018.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Here, I found the last time we had this discussion:

Your quotes don't support your point. Everybody knows a dime is 6 DBs. The question is if a guy with a DB designation on the roster sheet moves to an ILB position and plays an ILB role whether he should be called a DB or an ILB on that snap in characterizing the defense as nickel or dime. I say it is the role that matters and not some arbitrary designation on a piece of paper.

It is no different than if you have a guy marked OLB on the roster sheet who moves inside to 3-tech. He's now a DT on that snap.

I'll make one last point. When a guy is referred to as a "hybrid ILB", the "hybrid" is not a reference to a role on any particular play. You wouldn't want to say his role in the box on a potential running down, in this case next to Martinez and nobody else, is kinda like a DB and kinda like an ILB and since they call him a DB and he looks like one then must be a DB on that snap.

The "hybrid" refers to the kind of player he is, not the role. It is a trade off of downhill punch in a traditional ILB for quickness, speed and coverage ability in reaction to how offenses have evolved.

 

[Dantés]

Your quotes don't support your point. Everybody knows a dime is 6 DBs. The question is if a guy with a DB designation on the roster sheet moves to an ILB position and plays an ILB role whether he should be called a DB or an ILB on that snap in characterizing the defense as nickel or dime. I say it is the role that matters and not some arbitrary designation on a piece of paper.

It is no different than if you have a guy marked OLB on the roster sheet who moves inside to 3-tech. He's now a DT on that snap.

I'll make one last point. When a guy is referred to as a "hybrid ILB", the "hybrid" is not a reference to a role on any particular play. You wouldn't want to say his role in the box on a potential running down, in this case next to Martinez and nobody else, is kinda like a DB and kinda like an ILB and since they call him a DB and he looks like one then must be a DB on that snap.

The "hybrid" refers to the kind of player he is, not the role. It is a trade off of downhill punch in a traditional ILB for quickness, speed and coverage ability in reaction to how offenses have evolved.

I didn't figure it would make any difference, but I tried.

All of those links support my point that "dime" refers to a personnel package, not an alignment. If a 6th DB lines up next to Martinez and then splits out into the slot after a motion, the defense didn't switch from nickel to dime. It was always in dime.

NFL teams use packages literally all the time that are designated "dime" that feature a DB in the box like a linebacker. At least one of the links I provided illustrated this visually from the Steelers. Your way of defining the terms contradicts what is going on every week with every team in the league.

Like I said originally-- if you want to have your own personal definition of these terms to suit your own purposes, that's fine. It just should be understood that you're using an atypical definition.

If you're trying to make the point that roles between designated positions are blurring, then I couldn't agree more. But that doesn't change the way that these terms are used, at least for now.

 

[Mondio]

a "hybrid" isn't being used to cover run downs. They're put on the field so they can keep up with backs and TE's in passing routes. The fact that offenses will take advantage of the "lightness" up front and run on it sometimes doesn't change what a defense is trying to accomplish. They're simply taking a DB and putting him in an area traditionally occupied by a bigger guy, but the intention is to have him provide better protection in the passing game.

with the amount of packages teams run, the lines and definitions of a lot of players is being blurred that's kind of obvious. But they're putting these "hybrids" on the field to protect against the pass against RB's and TE's. They can call them what they like, but their primary job is protect against the pass. That's a DB in my book.

 

[HardRightEdge]

All of those links support my point that "dime" refers to a personnel package, not an alignment. If a 6th DB lines up next to Martinez and then splits out into the slot after a motion, the defense didn't switch from nickel to dime.

Clearly that is where we disagree.

Check that. If he lines up in the box and then the offense comes out with an unanticiapted 4-wide, and the defense finds itself in a mismatch of personnel forcing the ILB to move to the slot to cover a TE or RB, that's a traditional ILB role. Having a hybrid like player just means he has a better skill set to handle it. If they come out of the huddle and he drops into a 3 deep zone then he's a DB. If he breaks the huddle and covers a wideout, then he's a DB. If he lines up in the box and stays there he's an ILB, not as a third player box safety blitzing or pressing a TE but as as second linebacker.

We saw Whitehead do all of these things in the Rams game, with about half his snaps starting in the box. It's silly to say he's a DB on all those snaps.

 

[HardRightEdge]

a "hybrid" isn't being used to cover run downs. They're put on the field so they can keep up with backs and TE's in passing routes. The fact that offenses will take advantage of the "lightness" up front and run on it sometimes doesn't change what a defense is trying to accomplish. They're simply taking a DB and putting him in an area traditionally occupied by a bigger guy, but the intention is to have him provide better protection in the passing game.

with the amount of packages teams run, the lines and definitions of a lot of players is being blurred that's kind of obvious. But they're putting these "hybrids" on the field to protect against the pass against RB's and TE's. They can call them what they like, but their primary job is protect against the pass. That's a DB in my book.

I agree totally until your last sentence. There's a nuance here though. Hybrid ILBs are expected to defend the run just as a traditional ILB. The problem that is being addressed, is the fact that teams pass more and on any down and distance. You make a tradeoff. But what you want out of this hybrid player besides coverage abilty is play recognition, anticiaption and quickness to get to the ball carrier before somebody can get a hat on him.

One of the notable examples of a hybrid ILB is Mark Barron, a 6'1", 210 lb. strong safety coming into the league. Tell me, what position is he playing on this play and do you think he's on the field just for coverage ability?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...1/Mark-Barron-stuffs-Aaron-Jones-for-a-safety

If he happens to drop into a 3 deep zone or 4 deep prevent is he still an ILB? I don't see how you can argue that.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

All of those links support my point that "dime" refers to a personnel package, not an alignment. If a 6th DB lines up next to Martinez and then splits out into the slot after a motion, the defense didn't switch from nickel to dime. It was always in dime.

NFL teams use packages literally all the time that are designated "dime" that feature a DB in the box like a linebacker. At least one of the links I provided illustrated this visually from the Steelers. Your way of defining the terms contradicts what is going on every week with every team in the league.

Hmmm, what happens if for example the Ravens use Anthony Levine in either role though??? I guess it might be smart to consider the alignment after all

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[Dantés]

Hmmm, what happens if for example the Ravens use Anthony Levine in either role though??? I guess it might be smart to consider the alignment after all

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I'm guessing that whatever the coaches consider to be his base personnel position would dictate whether they would refer to it as nickel or dime. In other words-- the personnel would dictate the terminology.

 

[GleefulGary]

I don't care if you call the position twinkletoes, this is for takes!

 

[Dantés]

Clearly that is where we disagree.

Check that. If he lines up in the box and then the offense comes out with an unanticiapted 4-wide, and the defense finds itself in a mismatch of personnel forcing the ILB to move to the slot to cover a TE or RB, that's a traditional ILB role. Having a hybrid like player just means he has a better skill set to handle it. If they come out of the huddle and he drops into a 3 deep zone then he's a DB. If he breaks the huddle and covers a wideout, then he's a DB. If he lines up in the box and stays there he's an ILB, not as a third player box safety blitzing or pressing a TE but as as second linebacker.

We saw Whitehead do all of these things in the Rams game, with about half his snaps starting in the box. It's silly to say he's a DB on all those snaps.

He's a DB by roster designation playing the position of a linebacker. Hence "dime linebacker"... "dime" because he's the 6th defensive back in the package and "linebacker" because he's being used in that role. This shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm guessing that whatever the coaches consider to be his base personnel position would dictate whether they would refer to it as nickel or dime. In other words-- the personnel would dictate the terminology.

Levine is designated (the photo is from the Ravens official website) as a hybrid defensive back/linebacker. That means that there's no way to make a distinction on which defense is used other than to consider the alignment.

 

[GleefulGary]

And a S moving down to play as a LB doesn't make him a LB. It's a role, not a position.

And none of it matters!