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The Bates Difference.

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Obi1, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    From what I've read, it seems that the previus 2 Defensive coordinators really didn't have the respect of the players. It seems that Bates has that and more.

    Bates' approach seems to indicate that he holds every defensive player accountable for their actions on the field.

    That means he will have much more respect from his players and have a better pulse of the overall defense at game time.

    By making the players accountable, he makes each individual think about his own playmaking and thus making him a more cerebral player.

    that may make each player step up to another level...

    That means the underachieving defense that we saw on the field will be gone and the bunch that will be out there are a smarter, hungrier, more cohesive group which in turn will make fewer mistakes.

    I think Bates has just made the Packers better. Only time will tell as to how much better.
     
  2. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Most importantly, Bates does not create esoteric defenses that make advanced calculus seem relatively easy. I have always had the feeling that from Sherman down, this coaching staff has been littered with a bunch of cerebral types who consistently outthink themselves....." I know they know that I know they know, so therefore I will do X to counter this knowledge."

    Football is not a cerebral sport..sure, you can do some creative things on both sides of the ball, but just remember that the basis of sound football is hitting people and tackling them. Something that the Packers have not done well for years. I think it is safe to say that in recent years our defense has become worse than finesse....sadly, they have been soft players in a soft scheme that apparently did not consider the benefits of intimidation as a result of hard hitting play.

    Bates changed that the day he walked in. If nothing else, this defense will play sound fundamentals and hit you hard. And please note that EVERY player we drafted this year, while maybe not the guy with the fastest 40s or highers verticals, typically played with great intensity and effort, and had sound fundamentals already in place.
     
  3. leopardmech

    leopardmech Cheesehead

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    Lets hope so.
    Good post Obi1. I agree with you that Bates has made the Packers better. I know that he is not coaching offence but I believe he will make a difference on both sides of the ball. If the attitudes of the defensive players is better and they are as you say held accountable I believe that this attitude will spill over on to the offence and inprove the team as a whole.

    Later
    Leopardmech
     
  4. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Digs,

    I agree in most part with your post.

    I think "cerebral" is an important facet of the player. Overthinking and second guessing is NOT being cerebral, but thinking and responding quickly IS. So is the presence of mind to NOT lose control with cheap shots, to strip the ball at an opportune time, the ability to admit a mistake on a blown play and go on to keep making good plays instead of dwelling on the mistake... All those are CEREBRAL characteristics.

    I am really happy to see a more physical and IN SHAPE defense. As Lombardi(I think) once said "...Fatigue makes cowards of us all..."
     
  5. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Perhaps I should have typed "cerebral" with quotation marks as it was certainly said tongue-in-cheek. Your assessment was more accurate in stating they over-think or second guess. That was the point I wanted to make.
     
  6. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    It's interesting that for all the guys, including many on this forum, who were singing Donatell's praises last year, he doesn't even run that Under 7 Slice crap anymore, because most guys can't figure it out. He got a bunch of credit for running Mora's scheme. The genius of guys like Lombardi, Belichik and, I hope, Bates, is that their schemes are easy to run and it's all about execution. I think we have guys on our roster who can make plays when put in the right position and they'll definitely be there this season.
     
  7. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Lol!

    I wasn't around in the Lombardi yrs, but my dad always told me that Vince would say that you should be able to tell the defense the play you're going to run, and still gain at least 3 yards everytime...which ties into the digs' quote. You can be as cute and "cerebral" as you want to be, but it doesn't mean squat if your players can't wrap up on a tackle, maintain a block, accelerate off a cut, play flat, etc.
     
  8. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I should clarify, that I'm not suggesting that Bates is as good as Lombardi is, just that he seems to have the same philosophy about simplicity and execution.
     
  9. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    If Bates is half as good as Vince was, the Packers will be better already without even taking a snap!
     
  10. Steel Wheels

    Steel Wheels Cheesehead

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    Jim Bates has had better talent in Miami then what he will have in Green Bay for 2005.

    DL is critical in any quality defense. Packer's DL is a joke...
     
  11. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    The Point is, Bates has made the PACKERS defense better with his approach and style.

    It makes no difference WHAT he had in Miami. We are talking about the 2005 Green bay packers. By his inclusion, the defense just got much better than 2004.

    And THAT was Sherman's fault.
     
  12. Steel Wheels

    Steel Wheels Cheesehead

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    Keep praying Obi1...
     
  13. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Praying?

    Oh, YOU mean preying... Like the Packers prey on the Bears, Lions, and The Vikings.

    Preying, like YOU do on this forum so that you can post your EVERYONE SHOULD HATE SHERMAN garbage...

    I see, I am glad that I could clear up the spelling for you.
     
  14. HatestheEagles084

    HatestheEagles084 Cheesehead

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    In this discussion, just about everyone has been very optimistic or very pessimistic...I find myself somewhere in the middle, what I call 'cautious optimism'

    To the 'negatives'...sometimes I think of myself as negative, then after reading some of the completely anti-packer stuff on this board, i dont consider myself THAT negative...there's reason to look up, thompson started to 'chop out the dead wood'...Darren Sharper is GONE, Mark Roman will not start, Hannibal Naivies will not start--those are three players who have cost the packers a lot, missed tackles, blown coverages, they haven't exactly been helping the situation. Our defense won't have the dissheveled look anymore, we won't blitz 65% of the time anymore like Slowik had us do, we won't let backs catch balls in the flat and run for 30 yards. Jim Bates is an established def. coordinator, say what you will about the quality of the players, our defense will be more focused and mechanically sound than last season. We've made improvements, Ray Thompson will help out the run tremendously, Earl Little, Arturo Freeman, Collins, Underwood, whoever starts--could they do worse than Sharper or Roman, seriously...

    to the 'positives'...I praised Jim Bates above, but I think too much faith is being put behind this guy to turn dirt into gold. People hang on this guy's every word..."ohh well he likes our defensive line depth, our defense is going to rule!" The starting four...KGB will sack the QB and give running backs a free pass, Grady Jackson could be a great run stuffer, could be double teamed because of the ineffectiveness of the rest of the d-line (who else starts at DT?), or big Grady could get hurt and we are SCREWED; I don't feel I'm jumping to any extremes, if we lose grady we're in DEEP (poop)! Aaron Kampman plays his heart out, has shown improvement, but I don't see him progressing that much further, which means this line is going to have trouble causing chaos in the backfield.

    Behind our starting four...Donnell Washington, James Lee, R-Kal Truluk, Mike Montgomery, Cullen Jenkins, Corey Williams, guys who could be good, but haven't proven anything in the NFL yet. Cleditus Hunt? Nobody knows where this man is...

    Secondary...I praised our safety signings above, but these guys were marginal starters, did a good job, but did not set the world on fire, we also have two rookies--two rookies from SMALL PROGRAMS. Cornerbacks...Al Harris and (whoever wins the battle for #2), the fact of the matter is we're going to get passed on a lot if our defensive line allows the other team time to throw. I just hope whoever starts opposite #31 matures and plays the position very well.

    And the other arguement is Jim Bates and the talent he had in Miami, sure he made great players out of the defense in Miami, but they also had talent, will Bates do the same and make our rag-tag bunch into a great defense? I don't know...I'd be more comfortable if we would've spent high picks on them, guys like Dan Cody or Justin Tuck or Channing Crowder, Babineaux, etc. But instead, people are hyping up late round picks...Mike Montgomery is going to be "a star defensive end", Mike Hawkins has "an amazing life story, blazing speed, and will be a good cornerback for us", Kurt Campbell, i never heard where he went to school but "he's big and a tweener LB-Safety, so he'll be good", now come on, just because we ignored our needs early and drafted to fill those needs late doesnt mean we are well off in terms of defensive prospects...I know you guys are trying to put a good face on this but all we drafted are longshot prospects that may or may not pan out

    And as for the divisional competition, I'm glad to see some of you guys hyping up the team for another divisional run (hell i'd rather see that than the excessive negativity) but the three other teams made progress also, and I would not be surprised to see the Packers not win the division, do I think that I'm a negative person, no--because I want my team to win and that's all that matters, I think a lot of people on here are hoping for a Packers' slip up in '05 just for the 'told ya so' factor.

    To both sides: way too much energy is being exerted on...June 22nd towards a football season that doesnt start until sometime in september, camp doesnt even start for a month. everyone needs to take a step back, observe, read up on newspaper articles about the team. Whether you're sneeringly over negative, or enthusiastically over-positive, just tone it down. Me? honestly I think our defense will improve, not by leaps and bounds, but I think we will be middle of the pack, and won't get lit up for 30+ points a bunch of times this season. A lot can happen during training camp and the preseason, just wait to see what happens.
     
  15. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Steel wheels, this is what Bates has to say about his new defensive line:

    "I like our front," Bates said last week before assuming his duties. "I like the size in the middle, I like the speed coming off the edges as far as I feel real good about Gbaja-Biamila. I really feel good about him as far as having 11 sacks on the average over the last three years. I feel like I cannot wait to get to work with him. He reminds me a little bit of Jason Taylor that's down here (in Miami), and I'm looking forward to evaluating him on tape and seeing if there's some more improvement we can make. And there's a lot of depth at the different positions that we're looking forward to working with." (Journal Sentinal, 2/2/05)

    "I've never been in a situation that we have such good depth in the 15 years I've been in the league," he said. "People will say, 'It wasn't a very good defensive line.' I disagree. The ability's there. We will get that ability level up and you will see vast improvement in the defensive line." (Journal-Sentinel 4/24/05)

    But, what the hell would Bates know, right??
     
  16. Steel Wheels

    Steel Wheels Cheesehead

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    What do you want him to do tell the truth and say they stink. Bates is being diplomatic and trying to build some confidence.

    Hunt hasn't even been around and Grady Jackson has been nursing an injury.

    We will all be finding out soon enough when the preseason games get under way. We can get a feel for what progress Bates and company are making.
     
  17. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Bates has done nothing but put pressure on himself and his assistants by proclaming that the talent level is already in Green Bay. If the talent stinks, as you claim, what does he say? This guy doesn't know what "diplomatic" means--he just coaches. He'll build confidence by putting these players in position to make plays--something that hasn't occurred on the defensive side of the ball since Fritz left.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Will Jim be bigger than Fritz??
     
  18. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Man, I don't know. Looking at Shurmur next to Bates gives me goosebumps. Those are huge shoes to fill, that's fer sure! Good luck Coach Bates, I'm with you 110% :bang:
     
  19. ArizonaPackerFan

    ArizonaPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I agree with Obi1's original post. I think Slowik lost the respect of his players, and that affects their performance on the field. I know I work harder for people I respect, and I think football players do as well. Bates has instant crediblity with his players, which is something Slowik never had.

    I'm excited about Bates. He'll definately improve the defense. The big question to me is how much can he improve it with the talent he has? My guess would be he will be able to turn one of the lower ranked defenses into one ranked somewhere in the middle. If we can get a couple of the 2nd year players to take a big jump in their level of play the way KGB did in his 2nd year, then maybe Bates has a chance to make it a top 10 defense. With Bates, we might have a chance to actually win a few games with the defense, instead of winning despite the defense like we did with Slowik.
     
  20. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Right ON! APF.

    Packers with a middle- ranked defense would have made the superbowl.

    The D lost several games in the regular season for us.... As far as the Playoff game... The defense didn't even dress out.
     
  21. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Okay - but I think you'd better go back and re-read the articles on the New England Patriots and their intelligence levels "required" ....btw!
    If they cannot grasp the playbook, why are they still in the NFL?

    Belicheck's main point when bringing players in.... remember it!
     
  22. PackerTraxx

    PackerTraxx Cheesehead

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    Coaches make a difference. Two years ago ,if I recall properly, we were the #17 defense with basically the same personnel. If Bates gets us back to that level or better, which I believe he willl do, we should have a good year. We have not had good coaching, so some of these guys may be better than we know. It would be great if 2 or 3 had a breakout year. I would sooner have a great coach than a great player.
     
  23. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    I think you raise a great point packertraxx...like others have said, Slowik lost this team after the 2nd game when the bears figured out how to beat the blitz. I've been very critical of the players, but I don't know that anyone really know what the packers have...mind you I don't think there are 8 pro bowlers buried on the roster...

    Anyways...if Bates is able to get the defense to rank somewhere between 10 and 15ish, this team could be looking at making a run late into the playoffs.
     
  24. calicheesehead

    calicheesehead Cheesehead

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    Shall we call him Master Bates ? I get the feeling this is just what our players needed-good coaching.
     
  25. Ryan

    Ryan Cheesehead

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    LOL "Master Bates" sorry I am bad, but I don't think.... nevermind... :thumbsup:
     

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