State of the Line Offensive Line Coach/Scheme/Players

12theTruth · Nov 29, 2012

ThxJackVainisi said:
Also as I've posted before I think they've gone away from the scheme and we've seen Thompson spend first round picks on OTs and drafted players like Sitton who fit the traditional schemes more than the ZBS IMO. BTW, although he plays OG, IMO Sitton is the caliber of Tauscher and Clifton.

Curious as to why you feel Sitton fits a traditional scheme better than ZBS? His college team UCF employed the scheme and he did pretty well for himself there.

TJV · Nov 29, 2012

IMO prototypical ZBS O linemen are finesse players, many times undersized ones. IMO Sitton is neither; he's a "punch you in the mouth" type. Last season the Lions' Suh was asked who is the toughest OL he faced and his answer was Sitton. And not because Sitton was diving at his legs on plays going the other way.

JBlood · Nov 29, 2012

12theTruth said:
We can argue about talent vs coaching all day long but the most immediate change for improvement on the line is coupling a top notch position coach and the teaching of fundamentals which includes aggression and knocking the guy across from you on the line of scrimmage off his feet and on his butt. The Packers do not have that and NEED it!

Agreed. MM said he was dedicated to fielding a power run game when he was hired. He's failed to this point, mostly because he inherited the best QB in the league, and it would be foolish not to build the offense around him. But we won't have the availability of the QB unless he's protected. He's one more concussion away from a long time on the bench. And if that happens, end of season. The offensive line is the key to the offense--run or pass. And it always has been.

JBlood · Nov 29, 2012

From what I've read, the Packers have used both zone blocking and power blocking on various plays during most of MM's time, but maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, the same personnel dominate at times, and are dominated at times. Seems as much mental as anything.

melvin dangerr · Nov 29, 2012

HyponGrey said:
It was well known at the start of the season that Moses was slow. God awful slow. He made the team because of his burst, rush repertoire, and general understanding of coverage.

OK but what do you disagree about the "D" comment?

DevilDon · Nov 29, 2012

El Guapo said:
I'm a big TT guy and have freely admitted it. Although in my book his doodoo smells like everyone elses, not like roses. That said...

Wolf did a much better job in the first rounds with OL:
1st Round Picks - Aaron Taylor (1992), John Michels (1996), Ross Verba (1997)
2nd Round Picks - Mike Wahle (1998), Chad Clifton (2000)
3rd Round Picks - Earl Dotson (1993), Mike Flanagan (1996)

That's quite impressive because of historical perspective. Taylor and Michels were good but didn't play with us long, and Flanagan was a medical unknown until he hit his prime. Ted Thompson's OL picks:
1st Round - Bryan Bulaga (2010), Derek Sherrod (2011)
2nd Round - Daryn Colledge (2006)
3rd Round - Jason Spitz (2006)

Wolf was in charge of 10 drafts to Thompson's 8 drafts thus far. Of all of their offensive linemen picks, the average round was 3.9 for Wolf and 4.27 for Thompson, meaning that Thompson hasn't used as many high picks on OL. In his first 8 drafts, Wolf drafted 14 offensive linemen and Thompson has drafted 15.

One could argue that Wolf placed a higher value on OL but it could also be that draft position and quality of linemen available at the Packers' pick play into the equation. The biggest issue from what I outlined above is that it appears TT hit on Bulaga, Sherrod is a medical uncertainty, and Spitz and Colledge never reached their potential....serviceable to average but not anchors of the OL by any stretch of the imagination. Most of Wolf's OL picks in the first three rounds were all studs.

I'll tell ya I'm the first guy to dismiss stats but as this isn't so much a stat as a statement - it's telling. TT always talks about the "big guys" and that speaks volumes. I liked the two first round picks but I think we all agree we're dipping into that pool again this year. I'm holding out hopes that Barrett Jones falls to us. The best center in the draft and talented enough to play anywhere on the line.
I'm still holding out hope on Sherrod and Datko as being serviceable. Both have good upside.

DevilDon · Nov 29, 2012

12theTruth said:
We can argue about talent vs coaching all day long but the most immediate change for improvement on the line is coupling a top notch position coach and the teaching of fundamentals which includes aggression and knocking the guy across from you on the line of scrimmage off his feet and on his butt. The Packers do not have that and NEED it!

If the Packers were to go one and done again look for this coaching change in off season.

You can coach all you want, some guys are not going to be able to do that. Allen, Suh and Peppers are all super stars because they are good at avoiding being coached on their butt.
Reggie White wasn't good because of his coaching, the guy was a baller. Adrian Peterson isn't good because of his coaching, he's just that good. All the coaching in the world can't negate talent if it's properly employed. You just hope to limit it.

HyponGrey · Nov 30, 2012

melvin dangerr said:
OK but what do you disagree about the "D" comment?

I only addressed your comment about the LB's. As far as our D goes, the calls have been as you said fraudulent. Makes me wonder what the hell we pay McCurley for. I've seen sporadic bouts of tackling in the secondary which tells me it IS being taught, so I tend to put that more on the players, which leads to blame Whitt and Perry for not, shall we say... persuading? our players to implement it more often, whether the cause there may be: no negative reinforcement for not implementing outside of drills ie in practice/game or no positive reinforcement for implementation in the same situations (you play how you practice). Not sure who the round guys are, but if you mean the DL, those are Trgovac's boys. The players are to blame for their play, the position coaches are to blame for not correcting the players, Moss (assistant head coach) and Capers is to blame for not getting on the players, the players are at fault for not executing the calls, Capers is on the hook for bad calls, McCurley is on the hook for not advising Capers (unless Capers is ignoring him) McCarthy is at fault for not straightening out Capers, Ted is at fault for hiring McCarthy and drafting players who won't/can't execute, and Murphy is ultimately at fault for not fixing the entire situation. All in all, I don't know enough about what is actually being done to say what the problem is, too many variables and possible causes. The main problem I see is a pervading attitude of "everything is alright as long as we win, it doesn't matter how poorly we (insert action here) so long as we win, because that shows we can overcome our flaws, so we don't need to fix them, all because we won." just MHO on what I sense. I'm probably just as bad because I'm willing to let it go on (though I would rather play well and lose than play poorly and win) and trust that things will get fixed one way or another. Blame everybody. Happy?

Grave · Nov 30, 2012

To say that Campen is not accountable because of someone else's decision to go to ZB is pretty modernist. Traditionally when you take a job, you assume responsibility. I know that's old-fashioned but it happens to be true. I like Bum Phillip's high regard for good coaching as in good coaches being able to: "..take hiz'n and beat your'n; or, take you'n and beat hiz'n." I don't expect Campen to be anywhere near that. But I do expect an occasional 100-yard rusher and adequate QB protection. Can he do that? Six years of futility says no.

Grave · Nov 30, 2012

DevilDon said:
You can coach all you want, some guys are not going to be able to do that. Allen, Suh and Peppers are all super stars because they are good at avoiding being coached on their butt.
Reggie White wasn't good because of his coaching, the guy was a baller. Adrian Peterson isn't good because of his coaching, he's just that good. All the coaching in the world can't negate talent if it's properly employed. You just hope to limit it.

We don't have any O-linemen of that caliber. I think they're average guys playing waaaay below average.

rodell330 · Nov 30, 2012

Grave said:
We don't have any O-linemen of that caliber. I think they're average guys playing waaaay below average.

Agree...you can be the best coach in the world when it comes to schemes, X's and O's but if you don't have any talented guy's to coach up then it's pointless. TT has failed in finding stellar linemen in the draft, and MM and the coaching staff have failed on getting what they have to work with to at least perform at an average level. Fail all the way around to this point.

7thFloorRA · Nov 30, 2012

A coach may not have that much of an effect on a great player's freakish talent but he can improve technique and keep them reigned in and focused. A good coach will make the average players better though. A good coach will have starters and backups that know where the hell they are supposed to be on the field and they will not be lost like EDS was the other night.

I am done hearing excuses for campen's sorry *** job of having this line prepared to play at even an average level. If anyone wants to drink MM's kool aid about his friend and make the injury excuse or the talent excuse then so be it.

rodell330 · Nov 30, 2012

7thFloorRA said:
A coach may not have that much of an effect on a great player's freakish talent but he can improve technique and keep them reigned in and focused. A good coach will make the average players better though. A good coach will have starters and backups that know where the hell they are supposed to be on the field and they will not be lost like EDS was the other night.

I am done hearing excuses for campen's sorry *** job of having this line prepared to play at even an average level. If anyone wants to drink MM's kool aid about his friend and make the injury excuse or the talent excuse then so be it.

I'm not drinking the kool-aid. Changes need to be made, this line sucks plain and simple.

TJV · Nov 30, 2012

IMO Campen is not responsible for the implementation or the continuation of the ZBS nor is he responsible for the talent available on the OL. But that doesn’t mean he bears no responsibility for the production, or lack thereof, of the OL. Except with regard to the impact the running game has on the passing game, the ZBS has nothing to do with the line’s most important function: pass protection. This is from a jsonline article yesterday:

Campen has not been dealt a fair hand this season, although he would never admit to it. General manager Ted Thompson kept just seven offensive linemen on the roster coming out of training camp, one of whom was Don Barclay, an undrafted free agent. Thompson did not keep a backup tackle with a single game of NFL experience, dismissing media suggestions that he was paper-thin upfront. The only addition he made this season was to promote another undrafted rookie, Greg Van Roten, from the practice squad.

Then, when right tackle Bryan Bulaga went down with a right hip injury, left guard T.J. Lang was moved to Bulaga's spot and Evan Dietrich-Smith was moved to Lang's spot. Barclay has been deemed unready for primetime, which means Campen was forced to move one of his best linemen to a spot he had played just once since the 2010 season. In addition, Thompson rolled the dice that 2011 first-round pick Derek Sherrod would be available this season after a catastrophic leg injury, but on Tuesday, he was declared out for the season after barely stepping foot on the practice field. Were the Packers to suffer another injury, they'd be in a full-blown crisis.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...-gets-its-act-together-jk7rg13-181482141.html

I don’t remember a single poster ever posting Campen is a great OL coach and I certainly don’t hold that opinion. But I agree with Silverstein: Regarding the talent available, Campen hasn’t been dealt a fair hand. One poster asked why Silverstein’s comments during the game were different than post game. He’s the author of the article posted so perhaps that’s why. I don’t blame anyone for not knowing when Sherrod would return from injury, or of course for Bulaga’s injury. But IMO Thompson bears more responsibility for the lack of available depth on the OL than any other person in the organization.

Another poster suggested that McCarthy get involved and instruct the OL to 'punch the guy in front of them until the ball is thrown'. From that same article:

Newhouse, for example, got a little too aggressive and instead of sitting and waiting for the rusher to come to him, he punched early and got himself in a bad position.

If you think Campen doesn’t know what he’s doing, consider that poster’s advice. Being overly aggressive in the run game can get an OL in trouble, doing so in pass protection makes no sense.

rodell330 · Nov 30, 2012

Hmmm?? interesting....FIRE TT instead!!!! ha.

Bagadeez04 · Dec 1, 2012

I can't see how people can continue to back Campen. I understand that the problems on the line are not entirely his fault, but it seems clear to me that these guys just don't seem to develop as they should. Sitton is the only guy who has come in here and actually exceeded expectations. Bulaga is OK so he isn't a fail, but about everyone else is underachieving or has underachieved.

While not totally Campen's fault (maybe due to scheme, talent etc...), he does bear responsibility here. And the real question is, "What can it hurt to get rid of him and bring someone else in?" We haven't had a 100 yard rusher in like 2 years, and we continually are among the league leaders in getting sacked. Can the O-line be worse than this?

TJV · Dec 1, 2012

Newhouse was a compensation pick at the end of the 5th round. If by his fourth season he's viewed as an "average" LT, that goes in the plus column for Campen, doesn't it? Also, Lang is good enough as a LG isn't he? It's not Campen's fault they view their best option to replace Bulaga requires a change in two spots - that's a talent problem, isn't it? You say Bulaga is "OK" and Sitton has exceeded expectations. Sherrod's injury isn't Campen's fault. Another item in the plus column for Campen is the 2010 season isn't it? Isn't that at least an indication that if he's given the talent, he's "good enough" as OL coach?

I am not backing Campen as much as I'm saying he definately isn't the only problem and IMO not the biggest problem. I'm fine with McCarthy replacing him but I'll be more concerned with the OL talent added in 2013 than with Campen's retention, if that's what happens.

JBlood · Dec 1, 2012

TJV--I think you might be underestimating the value of coaching. Lombardi vs Scooter comes to mind. Both coaches had essentially the same talent assembled by Vainisi, with drastically different outcomes. The Packers after the disaster of 1958 could have stuck with Scooter and started replacing the underperforming Starr, Magee, Kramer, Gregg, Nitschke, etc., etc. Seems to me we won't know the importance of Campen's teaching abilities are until someone else is given the job.

TJV · Dec 1, 2012

JBlood, I think you may be underestimating the value of talent. No one on the team pass blocks like a healthy Chad Clifton did and that's not Campen's fault IMO - it's their lack of comparable talent. Look at the play of Bulaga last year vs. this year before he got injured: I don't why his performance declined (perhaps he was injured before we realized) but I don't think it's because of Campen's 2012 coaching vs. his coaching of Bulaga in '10 or '11. If a talent comparable to a young Chad Clifton were on the team and if Bulaga were healthy and playing like he did last season, Campen would appear to be a much better coach. I also believe those advocating for his firing reconcile the fact he was the OL coach in 2010. I do agree it's difficult to assess the coaching abilities of assistant coaches as I've made that point before and inferred it above.

adambr2 · Dec 1, 2012

El Guapo said:
I'm a big TT guy and have freely admitted it. Although in my book his doodoo smells like everyone elses, not like roses. That said...

Wolf did a much better job in the first rounds with OL:
1st Round Picks - Aaron Taylor (1992), John Michels (1996), Ross Verba (1997)
2nd Round Picks - Mike Wahle (1998), Chad Clifton (2000)
3rd Round Picks - Earl Dotson (1993), Mike Flanagan (1996)

That's quite impressive because of historical perspective. Taylor and Michels were good but didn't play with us long, and Flanagan was a medical unknown until he hit his prime. Ted Thompson's OL picks:
1st Round - Bryan Bulaga (2010), Derek Sherrod (2011)
2nd Round - Daryn Colledge (2006)
3rd Round - Jason Spitz (2006)

Wolf was in charge of 10 drafts to Thompson's 8 drafts thus far. Of all of their offensive linemen picks, the average round was 3.9 for Wolf and 4.27 for Thompson, meaning that Thompson hasn't used as many high picks on OL. In his first 8 drafts, Wolf drafted 14 offensive linemen and Thompson has drafted 15.

One could argue that Wolf placed a higher value on OL but it could also be that draft position and quality of linemen available at the Packers' pick play into the equation. The biggest issue from what I outlined above is that it appears TT hit on Bulaga, Sherrod is a medical uncertainty, and Spitz and Colledge never reached their potential....serviceable to average but not anchors of the OL by any stretch of the imagination. Most of Wolf's OL picks in the first three rounds were all studs.

I don't want to nitpick, but Michels was a bust, he was not good. Verba was just a guy and Taylor good but nothing special.

I think Bulaga is already arguably better than any of them.

ExpatPacker · Dec 2, 2012

As always, Bob McGinn has some very strong insights into the situation.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...packers-offensive-line-1h7rd68-181711651.html

Some comments of his I definitely agree with:

"Barclay, on the other hand, represents the last best personnel move to improve the pass protection and the run game. Stymied by two-high safety shells for a month, the Packers will stay stymied unless they can protect and rush better."

"What they're not doing is getting to the second level," one NFC personnel man said last week. "The center is getting held up and has a hard time getting there. The Giants always had a linebacker free and Detroit always had a linebacker free. They just don't have any cohesiveness."

In other words, Jeff Saturday is too old. And Lang is way out of position at RT especially with a bum elbow. And his comment about McCarthy hits home:

"McCarthy's sometimes cavalier approach to pass pro hints of arrogance. In New York, he put out three or more split receivers on 44 of Rodgers' 52 snaps. He had either one man or nobody in the backfield with Rodgers on 38 snaps. All five sacks came from shotgun."

"Until the Packers find a more robust center, and there's no hint a Dietrich-Smith for Saturday change is forthcoming, it will be tough sledding running the ball inside against a creditable defense.
This is where Barclay should fit as the right tackle or sixth O-linemen. It's the best hope to break the spell of the two-shell."

This for me is part of MM's "conservatism" and just calling a few different plays isn't going to make the difference. Unless the coaching staff is convinced that Barclay is not ready, this is a change that could really improve things.

HyponGrey · Dec 2, 2012

Why we didn't at least pick up Reggie Wells again is beyond me

HardRightEdge · Dec 2, 2012

ExpatPacker said:
"McCarthy's sometimes cavalier approach to pass pro hints of arrogance.

I see it more as stubbornness.

JBlood · Dec 2, 2012

I trust MM's opinion of his linemen more than anyone else. He was the one that thought Lang was a guard, while Campen saw him as a tackle. Pure conjecture about Barclay, since he hasn't played. I suspect we'll see alot of Kuhn and 2 tight ends against the Vikes.

7thFloorRA · Dec 2, 2012

JBlood said:
I trust MM's opinion of his linemen more than anyone else. He was the one that thought Lang was a guard, while Campen saw him as a tackle. Pure conjecture about Barclay, since he hasn't played. I suspect we'll see alot of Kuhn and 2 tight ends against the Vikes.

...and yet he has Lang at Tackle now instead of exploring and trying other means.

State of the Line Offensive Line Coach/Scheme/Players

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