1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!
    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers.

    You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
  2. Big Announcement Coming for 2015 Football Season!!

    Be on the look out for a big Packer Forum announcement when the schedule is released. Full details coming soon...

State of the Line Offensive Line Coach/Scheme/Players

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by 12theTruth, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    Didn't want to sound so dire as to title this thread fire James Campen, etc.

    I am looking for those who constantly defend the continued employment of the offensive line coach and or the zone blocking scheme to justify how they come to this conclusion. If the proof is in the pudding, where is the historical success of this scheme, coach, etc., when it comes to the Packers in 2012, since employed under McCarthy's watch and going forward!

    The line is 5th worst in protecting Aaron Rodgers from sack in 2012.
    Given up the 8th most QB hits in the league.
    It has been 37 games since Green Bay has had a 100 yard rusher.
    Against the Giants, offensive line can't even be relied on to attempt a 4th down and inches.

    This link really provides the numbers which paint a telling picture about how bad our offensive line is. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

    Something has got to give. Our franchise QB is turning 29 in ONE WEEK, the organization is relying on the potent weapons at QB and WR to carry the load, when they could beef up the overall offense by making the tough choice and switch o-line coach and or zone blocking scheme. The immediate and near future are far from positive. Something should get done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +515
    I think Trent Dilfer speaks for a lot of us with this comment:

    "When you study the Green Bay Packers, it's amazing how many plays they make, great pass plays, they don't really block everybody," Dilfer said. "Because teams haven't figured out how to take away the short passing game. So often Aaron gets the ball out of his hand before the defense is able to get home on him. Teams try to come up and bump and run and they beat them vertically. But what happened tonight was the Giants took away the quick throws. So you see Aaron pass the ball in the shotgun, for instance, and look to his left to get the ball out and it's not there. So he has to move to number two. Well, this Packers' offensive line isn't very good, so he doesn't have the luxury of getting to two and three, deep in his progressions, a lot of times because of the defensive line is getting home. This game will always, no matter if it changes to a spread league, a passing league, whatever you want to call it, it will always come down to blocking and tackling. And the Green Bay Packers just don't block very well. So we get caught up in their win steaks and these glamorous stats that Aaron can put up. But the essence of who they are, they are not a championship team until they block better because there is too much of a burden on Aaron to make up for the deficiencies up front."
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  3. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,886
    Ratings:
    +832
    That sounds very accurate.
     
  4. Vladimirr

    Vladimirr Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Ratings:
    +103
    The problem doesn't seem to be the coach or the scheme - it's the players. It's the lack of available talent due to injuries. I mean, we had no tackles left so we had to bring over Lang from guard. That's pretty extreme.

    Next man up only works until you run out of men.

    We have to hope that the rest of the team can overperform to make up for our obvious lack of talent on the O-line... and last night vs. the Giants that didn't happen. We can bring in an extra TE to help seal the edge on the run, but last night our defense let us get in a hole early. As the game went on and the desperation increased, we had to rely more and more on the passing game, and versus a good rush our injured line is not going to be able to hold up. Period. Coughlin knew exactly what he was doing by playing aggressively for the first few drives.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,886
    Ratings:
    +832
    Its not always about being the strongest or fastest or most physically skilled guy....its about using anything and everything you can to your advantage (technique, leverage, helping the rush run themself out of a play) and its about knowing where to be at all times. EDS had no idea what the hell he was doing last night. There was a 4 man rush on nearly every play and 5 lineman. He was often trying to shift over to help saturday who did not need help and vacated a gap. Newhouse then couldn't just push his guy outside because he would change direction and rush in that vacated gap. EDS needed to stay home and protect the inside from their DE while Newhouse would have run him outside and out of the play. This happened all night long and Campen didn't do a damn thing to fix it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,911
    Ratings:
    +984
    Change is a MUST! i can't put up with this same thing week in week out. Lang hasn't gotten it done, Newhouse is not a starting left tackle, Saturday is over the hill, Sitton has tken a step backwards, and Bulaga even when healthy was getting worked.

    Will it take a major injury to your franchise quarterback? I saw both tackles flat out get beat like drums on bull rush or just beat off the snap of the ball all night and the pocket was collapsed on just about every pass attempt. As a Packers fan i'm not being to hard on these guy's when i say behind the Bears o-line they are just as bad. It's gotten so bad watching them i've started changing the channel on passing downs to keep from breaking something. It's really that bad because as a Christian watching them give up sack after sack makes me wanna cus...and i don't cus.

    Draft or bring in guy's who take pride in not only pass blocking but run blocking as well. I wanna see sombody pancake a d-end or d-tackle or blow him off the ball on a regular basis for once. When you give up a sack i wanna see you get mad and show some dang emotion...be embaressed..this group shows no emotion when they give up a sack, bunch of nice guy's.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Messages:
    16,654
    Ratings:
    +2,959
    We had an off line thread...So Rodell I merged yours with it
     
  8. milani

    milani Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    245
    Ratings:
    +52
    Lack of available talent is exactly right. Even with all the starters this is not one of the better lines in the league.
    Saturday does not have the physical skills he once had. Wells was even better. Newhouse has given his all but he was intended to be a back up for Clifton. Bulaga was the heir apparent to Tauscher but is not as quick as Mark was. Lang is a so so guard but is not as quick off the ball as he was forecast to be coming out of college. Sitton is about the best we have right now. We'll have to continue to draft offensive linemen next year and hope they don't go down as fast as Sherrod and Bulaga. We get spoiled when we think of Favre having Clifton, Tauscher, Flanagan, Wahle, and Rivera. They were so solid we could not keep all of them. To get a 100 yd. rusher you have to have at least an average line.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,496
    Ratings:
    +1,427
    Here is the problem. The NFL is about parity and while we've done an outstanding job of drafting and retaining players, it is really difficult to do it at all positions. We have outstanding talent at WR and QB on offense while our RB and OL suffers. We have good linebacking and secondary talent but our DL suffers. I think that TT has drafted quite a few linemen so the issue isn't quantity but quality. He's got to hit on more successful linemen. He also needs to be a little more adept at bringing in FA street linemen that can serviceably backup the starters. Where parity comes back to bite you is that as soon as you turn your attention to the OL, another group begins to suffer. It's like having 6 holes in a **** but only 5 fingers. We addressed the defense primarily last year and will have problems elsewhere when/if we draft a bunch of OL next season.

    Dilfer is right on about blocking but there is no easy fix. In terms of potential talent I think that our OL is average. In reality we play worse than that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,911
    Ratings:
    +984
    Works for me...we can vent on how weak these guy's are all at once.
     
  11. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,911
    Ratings:
    +984
    Dilfer is right on about blocking but there is no easy fix. In terms of potential talent I think that our OL is average. In reality we play worse than that.[/quote]

    Exactly these guy's are average at best but they continually play below average football. That's becoming the nom with our offensive line nowadays.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,924
    Ratings:
    +1,379
    I agree the line was probably average to start the season and now with injuries it is worse. I was worried before the season we didn't have enough depth.
     
  13. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,911
    Ratings:
    +984
    Mix the lack of depth with the lack of talent... and this is what you get. I don't think TT is a good evaluator on talent when it comes to drafting o-linemen. When you look at the line how many guy's can you look at and say this guy can be a pro bowl type player yr in yr out? Maybe Sitton? the verdict is still out on Sherrod but that's about it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,924
    Ratings:
    +1,379
    I don't think Thompson has drafted a guy of Clifton or Tauschers caliber up to now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,911
    Ratings:
    +984
    He hasn't. If he had an eye for linemen like he does Wr we'd have the best offensive line core in the NFL as well. Throw in the fact he's missed at rb as well and you have two very large components you need in this league to have a chance to win every week...a solid run game and a solid o-line. We have neither.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. DevilDon

    DevilDon Inclement Weather Fan

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,391
    Ratings:
    +445
    To say TT doesn't have an eye for OL talent is a bit of a reach. He drafted Bulaga and Sherrod and most draft gurus had an upper tier talent, first round pick grade on them. Packers never had a chance at Carimi who most would have loved to have dropped to us. He was benched.
    I don't think OL are as easy to pick as most assume. TT took Datko who many had picked as a second round pick last year if not for his injury problems. He took a flyer.... it might pan out.
    I'd like for the Packers to have a chance to take a first round pick on every single position on the team but that's not how it works. He picked defense last year and that seems to be working out.
    Nobody should expect the Packers defense to be this good at this point with so many rookies but it is. Games like this are going to happen with young teams but it's what do ya got going forward.
    Somebody suggested he's good with WR, okay. That's not a bad thing. How about this... how have we done with TE's? How about any other position. If it was as easy as picking high to grab a superstar this would be one of the better OLines in the league.
    And on drafting a RB, that guy has to fit your OLine. I'll admit I'm changing my mind about drafting a high round RB I still believe Starks has it in him. But Green isn't what I thought he might be. He was a 2nd. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Grave

    Grave Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Messages:
    239
    Ratings:
    +55
    The Giant's very average, patchwork O-line did a nice job against us. The Bears horseshit O-line did a nice job against the Queens. Coaching can make a difference. I can only hope that the Packers linemen study how the Giants do it because there sure as hell is no reason to think Campen will straighten them out. Look at the time Manning had compared to AR. Tauscher recommended self-help a couple of years ago. Philbin stepped in to coach them up to average to save the day in 2010. Now I see 2 options: The players do it their way, or; we bench the whole mess and start 5 receivers in the O-line and have rotating eligibles.

    Remember how bad Wahl and Rivera were before we got a competent O-line coach? I think the guys we have can be coached up too. But Campen has proven he ain't the guy to get it done. It's now a question of hurting Campen's feelings by re-assigning him or, getting the best QB in history killed. :eek:
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Grave

    Grave Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Messages:
    239
    Ratings:
    +55
    They don't have to be pro bowlers. But it would be nice if they could get in someone's way in pass pro.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,014
    Ratings:
    +358
    Wow. Pretty sure I agreed or disagreed on every post in this thread. Lots of differing opinions. That's great. Here's my thoughts:

    I agree a lot with what Trent Dilfer said. I thought he hit right on. TD may have not been a "great" quarterback in the NFL but he won a championship and he sure knows his stuff. But he kind of blends our lack of good o-line play in with us not being a championship caliber team this year. I think they can certainly get better before then and help drive us to the Super Bowl, and for that matter who, this time of the year doesn't have a weakness or two? Any 7-4 team with as good of a quarterback as us is championship caliber. Regardless of blocking.

    The 2nd thing I want to address is the scheme.
    "If the proof is in the pudding, where is the historical success of this scheme, coach, etc., when it comes to the Packers in 2012, since employed under McCarthy's watch and going forward!"
    The historical success of the zone blocking scheme under the Packers and Mike McCarthy's discretion has been minimal. Whether that is due to the scheme itself, lack of prime talent at RB, or just minimal attention paid to the running game at all by Mike McCarthy, I'm not sure. My guess is it's more the last two then the first one.

    However, the zone blocking scheme has worked very well elsewhere. You look around the league and 8 teams- Redskins, Colts, Raiders, Texans, Seahawks, Chiefs, Panthers and the Packers all base their entire offense off it. With a few other teams running different variations of it. Of those 8 teams-

    3/8 are in the top 10 of total offense. 1/8 in the bottom 10.
    5/8 in the top 10 of total rushing. 2/8 in the bottom 10.

    So no one else seems to be having as big of a problem with it as us. Which makes me even more lead to believe it has something less to do with the scheme and more of something else.

    EDS had no idea what the hell he was doing last night.
    This men, is the main culprit to last nights troubles. Refer to 7thFloorRA's post for an in depth description of EDS's play yesterday.

    And finally, those saying we lack talent/ aren't good enough/ bad drafting/ bad GM'ing by TT.

    Raise your hand if you thought our offensive line was going to be a main problem this year. *No Movements*

    That's right. There is 2 things this offensive line is. Young and injured. If you want to make generalizations that "Nobody on this team will be as good as Tauscher or Clifton" That's fine. Maybe they won't be. That's a pretty high bar. But also remember. We have 2 darn good young first round picks injured right now. And our offensive linemen as a whole read by age 23, 26, 25, 24, 26, 22, 23, 23 and Jeff Saturday being the outlier at 37. That's a damn young group. Just something to think about I feel a lot of people overlook.

    Kind of unorganized. But this already took a half hour to write. So overlook my messiness please lol
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    3,758
    Ratings:
    +1,030
    *Raises Hand* I've always been down on Newhouse, and Saturday's age worried me
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. GeeDogWarrior

    GeeDogWarrior 0 - 0

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +139
    I figured our oline would be average/above average - normal off season, perhaps get Sherrod in the lineup - I figured the whole "jeff saturday is a legend" type of hype would like.... translate to our offense being perhaps better than 2011 .... nope, the blocking has been garbage this year... the annoying thing is it isn't as comical as it was with Allen Barber ... at least then, there wasn't all that much disappointment, more of just "meh" shrug, but now - we've got talented guys like Sitton/Bulaga getting worked by nobodies like Alan Branch. (smh)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. melvin dangerr

    melvin dangerr Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    407
    Ratings:
    +105
    I wish Trent would have gone deeper into the poor defensive scheme (fraud) that he(Capers) is spitting on the field, way to much slap tackling, and trying to get someone to the ground by pushing him, and 2 round guys up the middle who can't run down a led footed Manning, I wonder do the LB's even watch Clay tapes...
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  23. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    3,758
    Ratings:
    +1,030
    It was well known at the start of the season that Moses was slow. God awful slow. He made the team because of his burst, rush repertoire, and general understanding of coverage.
     
  24. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +515
    As Bob McGinn mentioned in his weekly rating, Lang is completely out of position at RT and it showed badly on Sunday. It would be better to move him back to RG and give Barclay a chance. MM needs to face up to the fact that as it is, the OL situation is not working and he needs to try something different. Being stubborn and conservative will not help at this time.

    Also I agree with the way that McGinn cited Tramon as a growing liability. The guy shies away from tackling and his coverage has gone south. It will be nice when Sam Shields gets back. Shields, Burnett, Jennings, McMillan, Heyward, House. Sounds pretty good to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. P-E-Z

    P-E-Z Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Messages:
    342
    Ratings:
    +91
    We need 100 yard rusher to slow down the pass rush.... For that we need a line that can block.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2

Share This Page