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So I know I'll be flamed for this, but...need new O-L Coach?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Cheesehead625, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I don't need any convincing the OL has to play better, my point in this thread is summed up by what I previously posted, "I think it’s very difficult for outsiders to assign blame on an assistant coach – there’s just too many variables involved". I've also asked a lot of questions above that IMO those advocating for the firing of Campen should know the answers to since they appear certain the problems lie with him. But no one will attempt to answer those questions because fans just don't have enough information. BTW, Campen was certainly good enough at his job in 2010 wasn't he? Perhaps the absence of Clifton, Tauscher, and Wells has had a greater effect than some here are willing to admit? (Also, Cliffy was a superb pass blocker but for most of his career he was not even an average run blocker IMO.)
     
  2. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    The common denominator in the equation is Campen. The players have come and gone. Under MM and Campen we have never really had a go to short yardage running attack to rely on. Remember the massive during season shuffling with Moll and others. Refer to this link to see McCarthy admitting the too many changes to line. http://www.wifr.com/sports/headlines/36715144.html I'm beginning to think MM is too arrogant for his own good. My contention he knows there is some huge fundamental problems yet Campen is HIS guy and he feels comfortable working with him. Better to work with one of HIS guys than bring an outsider in that may be MUCH better.

    I say Campen bears a large responsibility you apparently feel otherwise. If the 2nd worst O-line in the league isn't enough to impact your defense of quite probably poor coaching, than nothing probably ever will.

    Sure some of the players may have limitations and it isn't ALL on the Campen. But it clearly isn't translating into successful performance on the field. I bet all 5 lineman make more money than Campen. Whom is easiest to remove if there is a major deficiency? Yep the assistant coach.
     
  3. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I don't think the O-Line issues fall on the coach. What the O-Line needs is time and we don't have a lot of it. It's a young O-Line, inexperienced. They need time to gel but they are going to have to gain that experience on the field during games. Changing coaches will not solve this problem all it would do is put another coach in charge of a problem he will most likely not be able to fix.
     
  4. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    My "defense" of Campen is comprised of my contention that fans don't know enough to properly assign enough blame to him to intelligently advocate for his firing.

    The common denominator of the performance of the OL is not solely Campen; the common denominators are Thompson and talent acquisition and McCarthy and the offensive scheme and play-calling. And until this season, Philbin.
    In 2010 Kuhn converted 10 of 12 3rd–and-1 and 4th-and-1 attempts.

    That you don’t respond to any of the direct questions I asked is telling. I’ll try one more time:

    1. How responsible is Campen for installing the ZBS and relying on it completely initially and to a lesser extent now?
    2. Isn’t it reasonable to assume that Campen would have preferred the traditional blocking system he learned and used throughout his NFL career?
    3. How much influence does McCarthy and Clements (and formerly Philbin) have on blocking schemes and how Campen coaches the OL?
    4. How much input does Campen have on talent acquisition?
    5. What impact does the loss of Clifton have on the OL?
    6. What impact does the loss of Wells have on the OL?
    7. What impact does the loss of Philbin have on the offense in general and on the OL in particular?
    8. Who is responsible for the shuffling on the OL and with the decision to have Sherrod take snaps at OG in his first TC, for example?
    9. If Campen is incompetent as some of you contend, how did the Packers win a title with him as OL coach?

    I won’t be surprised if you don’t answer any of the questions since my point is you really can’t - no fan has enough information to. Either way, you can have the last word. I for one have spent too much time on this subject since it is a moot point: Campen isn’t going anywhere this season.
     
  5. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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  6. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    thnxjack: I value your opinions, here are a few of mine: 1) MM decided on using the ZBS, with Jagodzinski the man to teach it. Then Philbin, then Campen. Nobody had any expertise except Jago in the scheme. To my knowledge, the Packers still use the ZBS much of the time 2) Agreed, but when he accepted the job as offensive line coach I would imagine he agreed to teach the ZBS, and felt competent in doing so. Had he admitted he had no expertise in the ZBS teaching, why would he have been hired, unless the scheme was to be dropped? 3) I suspect Philbin had a lot to do with the scheme, but, again Campen was hired to teach the line techniques. It is generally assumed that Philbin took over the offensive line coaching after the debacle against the Lions in 2010. The line then went on to be dominant throughout the rest of the regular season and to the Championship. 4) No idea, but I would assume all position coaches put their own 2 cents worth of opinion on all players being discussed. Whether anyone pays attention to his opinion is the real question. If his bosses are not interested in his opinion regarding talent, why would they keep him around? 5) Clifton was dominant when young and healthy, and during the run to the Championship. We don't have a L tackle of that ability as of now. It should be noted that Larry Beightol had a dominant offensive line the entire 6 years he was the line coach under Ray Rhodes and Sherman. Either he was blessed with unusual talent, or his coaching was important. 6) Less than a tackle the quality of a young Clifton 7) I think Philbin was important. See #3 8) The shuffling of the line has been every spring that MM has been head coach. Nobody could decide whether Lang was a G or T; Sitton a G or T; Sherrod G or T; EDS G, T, or C; etc., etc., etc. I would think a dominant AND SUCCESSFUL offensive line coach would determine such things. At one point Lang was a tackle according to Campen, and a guard by McCarthy. Now he's a guard. Does that mean MM has no confidence in Campen's opinion? 9) The offensive line was up and down during 2010 until the (almost) devastating loss in Detroit. What followed was a complete turnaround by the O line that had much to do with getting into the playoffs, and then winning Championship #13. It is thought that Philbin was the director of the line during that run. If so, it explains the Championship while Campen was the offensive line coach of record.

    This is all my opinion only, and I have no unusual insight to the inner workings of the Packers. But I can see that the line play is substandard, and it will result in the injury of the MVP if something is not done.
    Someone has to turn things around, as occurred in 2010. It should be Campen, but someone has to do it.
     
  7. net

    net Cheesehead

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    I'm responding to this post after the Arizona game. The offensive line didn't look to bad, did they?

    Fire Campen! Fire McCarthy! Fire Ted Thompson! Fire Mark Murphy! Fire the Board of Directors! Fire the janitor! Fire all the beer vendors!
    There are thousands of Super Bowl experienced coaches, players, GM's and coaches beating down the doors! Fire everybody! All day! Everyday!
    6-3 ain't bad. In fact, it's just about where they were when the won the Super Bowl. I don't think they can do it, though, because they've been firing everybody today.
     
  8. net

    net Cheesehead

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    The same would have been true then when Lombardi lost to the Bears in '63, Holmgren didn't win the Super Bowls a couple of years, I guess they should have fired him, too.

    Maybe a more reasoned approach is to look at the full body of work. McCarthy is at 65%, and he thinks Campen is doing OK. Since non of us have been coaches or GM's, maybe we should trust his instincts, or have you won a Super Bowl and drafted the league MVP?
     
  9. slaughter25

    slaughter25 Cheesehead

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    <---- This guy has. From his couch in 2010 ;)
     
  10. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Nope, I'm not in the sports business. But I can see when something is not working, and our offensive line is not working. BTW, when Lombardi lost to the Bears in 63, he'd already won 2 Championships and lost 1. Not quite the history of MM, who I like.
     
  11. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    Umm.. the run blocking was terrible!
     

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