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So I know I'll be flamed for this, but...need new O-L Coach?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Cheesehead625, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Juan Castillo?
     
  2. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    I would think 6 years has been more than enough time for Campen to have made a big dent in creating an identity for this offensive line. Instill solid fundamentals. Create a "well oiled machine" especially this year because the same five have been at it since the first practice of minicamp.

    Whether McCarthy's play calling or each individual lineman have deficiencies have less to do with things than Campen getting the best out of his unit and at the very least give the team a fighting chance to convert a 3rd down and 2 or less on a running play.

    Watching other NFL games I am very jealous watching other teams having O lineman able to get to the 2nd level with regularity. Not in Green Bay. I think it'd be a powerful statement to ditch Campen now and bring in a zone blocking guru at least till the end of the season. At that point, re-evaluate. Considering half of our games were against poor competition there is no reason the Packers should have the 24th ranked total offense which in large part is largely due to the inability to RUN the ball outside of the 2 yards and a cloud of dust theme.

    The funny thing is is that we wouldn't be even having this discussion if our deep threats weren't injured. MM just game plans to cover up for his deficient running game. Until MM takes running the ball serious enough the Packers will have to get the majority of their good rushing yards from Cobb runs, Rodgers scrambles, or when Benson hopefully returns an occasional 5 yard run up the middle.

    Against the Jags MM's offense pretty shaky on the final drive. The Packers only up by 5, McCarthy calls two runs up the middle which once again were stuffed by the Jags. Rodgers on 3rd down threw one up deep and the Pack were bailed out by a defensive penalty to basically ice the game. That is where an offensive line earns their money in crunch time, and time and again they play like horse manure.

    Why not try a high percentage WR screen, pick play, sweep, anything but same ole sorry run behind RG. Running clock is important but I would think gaining a first down should carry a little more weight. But thats just me.
     
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  3. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Removed and consolidated
     
  4. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    You mean we actually have an oline coach who shows these guys how to stink it up every week? Yea get rid of him to..along with Newhouse, lang, Saturday, and Bulaga. I watched the Broncos execute how you zone execute zone blocking Sunday night against New Orleans and it made me sick.
     
  5. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    merged two threads
     
  6. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    For those of you who think the ZBS is flawed, it was a Packers coach to introduce its concepts to the NFL. Lombardi's teams seemed to do alright with the scheme. Coaching is important , even in today's game.
     
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  7. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    That's this year... That whole team is a mess. Their defense has them coming from behind all year, which eliminates the running game. I'm just saying in general the past few years. There's been a few teams that have been able to do both well and these teams have been the most dangerous offenses. They are able to set up both styles of play because their lines can adjust. Ours, not so much. Falcons have obviously changed their O this year and turner is really slowing down. Just watching him run reminds me of a fat man in sand.
     
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  8. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    I think that we can all agree that the offensive line has been mediocre for years, even during our Super Bowl run we were stout in pass blocking in the second half, average at run blocking. So the question becomes is it the OL coach (Campen), is it the scheme, is it the players, or a combination of those three and other factors? I don't know if I'm qualified to say that it's Campen, because I have never watched him coach. Firing a guy for how his team performs is like firing a teacher solely because of test scores. You need to dig a little deeper.
     
  9. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Excellent point on NO. They rushed for 2,127 in 2011.
     
  10. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I know that is this year as I found the info lol

    Your statement implied they are good this year...Cant give them a pass on this year, if you do then your argument isnt valid for NO



    Cheesehead625 said:
    I hate to keeps saying it, but how about the Patriots, Saints, and Texans. They seem to have lines that are good at both. Granted the pass sets up the run in their systems.​
     
  11. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    My bad... I was referring to over all every year. This is still valid because we haven't been good for many years now with this line.
     
  12. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    I hope you're not being sarcastic because that is much better than Green Bay's 1558 last year. Which doesn't make sense at all seeing we were up by a lot most of those games and our pass game was grooving. Which means we should have been able to run at will.

    * edit... just saw the agreement with that post. My bad. :tup:
     
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  13. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Nope, not being sarcastic and it was clear to me you were referring to this years NO team. I was just pointing out you were correct in saying you can't make a point on how this years NO team in anyway resembles last years. :tup:
     
  14. Grave

    Grave Cheesehead

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    How do we know it's the "coach"? Wild guessing.

    Campen's been at it for six years and the line's getting worse. There were occasional positive blips when Jo Philbin would step in and get Colledge to fall down in front of someone. Unfortunately - or fortunately for us, Colledge is a Card now and unfortunately Joe is with the Fish. No one knows how Campen qualified for the job. He was never even a high school coach. His most notable achievement was emissarying to The Traitor. Maybe TT thinks he still owes him for that. Who knows. The one thing we know for sure, is this line can't block Paul Ryan.
     
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  15. Grave

    Grave Cheesehead

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    They are not good at pass blocking either.
     
  16. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    Well that and the fact that we have damn good guards and our right tackle should be right up there too. I know we have a weakness at center, but with fullback help or pulling a guard, we should be able to design better runs to the right. Aaron called out the play calling as well and I'm pretty sure MM would run only to our strengths.
     
  17. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Last year the consensus was Bulaga was on his way to pro bowl – or close – status, so what’s happened? I don’t think Campen “uncoached” him; IMO Bulaga’s regression is almost entirely on him. Same scheme, same playbook, same OG lining up next to him… OTOH, has Newhouse improved? Looks to me like he has. Wouldn’t a coach have a greater affect on a newcomer as opposed to an established player? And wasn’t Campen “good enough” at his job in 2010?

    But look, I’m not making excuses for Campen, I just think it’s very difficult for outsiders to assign blame on an assistant coach – there’s just too many variables involved and even beat reporters only get limited glimpses at practices, we don’t have any idea what’s going on behind closed doors. And Campen is not going anywhere and if he did, they'd have the same players, same playbook, same scheme, etc.
     
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  18. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    I don't sit down and break down game film to specifically critique Bulaga , however, maybe this pro bowl talk of Bulaga was ill advised in the first place. Everything went seemingly right for the Packers offense last season. Rodgers had his deep threats healthy for majority of the season, he was able to get the ball out fast, and the offense scored a ton. The offensive line played better, especially Bulaga, but Rodgers definately made the offensive line look better with his pin-point passes and generally phenominal pocket awareness.

    I feel you are seeing a truer picture of the effectiveness of the line when you see some key deep threats out and the line is required to maintain protection a bit longer and we are also seeing the limitation of executing fundamentals of ZBS by the offensive lineman when the game plan is more reliant on the running game than has been in the past.

    Basically Campen's teaching of fundamentals is on display and outside of Saturday, the other lineman have several years of his tutelage. Bob McGinn does a fantastic job of breaking down the position groups for the Journal Sentinel and the offensive line routinely gets 1 or 2 star ratings. We are held accountable for our individual performances at our daily jobs just as these lineman should be. BUT when you have a sample size as large as we have with Campen, I think the results clearly points towards a huge coaching deficiency.
     
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  19. net

    net Cheesehead

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    I knew the "fire everybody" crowd would emerge again as soon as the Packers didn't go 7-0. Campen was plenty good enough last year....
    Here's a shocker: the Packers don't have as much talent on the line as they had last year......!
    Is Newhouse better than Clifton? No.
    Is Lange an outstanding guard? No. He's adequate.
    Saturday isn't as good as Wells.
    Sitton is Pro Bowl caliber...
    So is Bulaga, but he's having a mediocre year.
    The NFL process to make the bad good and the good bad is weighing on the Packers. They don't have enough money to keep all the free agents, and when retirements happen, a player at the same Pro Bowl level is immediately available.
    But firing Campen isn't going to make mediocre talent in three positions suddenly become better with another coach. Firing Castillo actually has made the Philly defense worse.
    Ted Thompson hates to pay linemen and running backs, thinking they are easily replaced with a cheaper player. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    With some core players nearing free agency, do you sign a high-priced free agent lineman or running back and then possibly lose Clay Matthews, or God forbid, Aaron Rodgers?
    YOU CAN'T KEEP ALL THE PLAYERS. YOU CAN ONLY HIT ON GREAT DRAFT PICKS ON OCCASION. FIRING THE COACH ONLY SETS BACK THE ENTIRE PROGRAM.
    Amen.
     
  20. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Having two Pro-Bowler types (according to your post) on an offensive line plus the trusted handler which handled Peyton's snaps during the Colts run should provide at least an adequte line, no? That is the problem here. Poor ZBS fundamentals. MM doesn't place enough of a committment to the run. This will always be a pass first offense, but quite frankly the best thing MM could do to show his committment to the running aspect of his game to get a decent teacher of the ZBS fundamentals (or scrap ZBS alltogether).
     
  21. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    "YOU CAN'T KEEP ALL THE PLAYERS. YOU CAN ONLY HIT ON GREAT DRAFT PICKS ON OCCASION. FIRING THE COACH ONLY SETS BACK THE ENTIRE PROGRAM."

    With this reasoning, we'd still have Scooter McLean coaching.
     
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  22. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    McGinn does do a good job of analyzing what happened in the games and it may surprise some that for a unit ‘routinely getting 1 or 2 stars’ they’re averaging 2.6 stars per game at this point. Of course we don’t need McGinn to know the OL has to get better but if you’re going to rely on McGinn’s ratings you have to include the two 4.5 star ratings and the 3 star rating he gave them against a very good 49ers D.

    IMO the Packers have been going away from the ZBS – certainly they aren’t using it exclusively. Has Campen been the one urging they go away from it more and more? (He never played it and has no allegiance to it.) If you think it’s his fault they didn’t scrap it upon Jags’ departure, your bias is showing IMO. Has Campen been urging McCarthy and Clements to run more and to run from more power formations? Has Campen been asking for different players on the OL - and more resources spent on them? How has the switch from Philbin to Clements affected the offense overall and the OL in particular? How have the opposing DC’s adjustments to playing against the Packers affected the play of the OL? I don’t know the answer to these questions and my point is none of you do, either.

    Saturday certainly deserves praise for his career but its clear he’s at the end of it. IMO the best part of his game is his accuracy with shotgun snaps and his veteran savvy. But he’s slow and lacks strength which makes it difficult for him to make the reach blocks required in the run game and he’s at times overpowered by bull rushes. When was the last time you saw him get out on a LB? Have you ever seen him get to the second level on a run? Does Campen get credit for Bulaga’s better play last season than this, does Campen deserve any credit for Newhouse’s improvement this year or is he just responsible for poor OL play? Is Campen a good enough OL coach to win a title with?

    Finally, does anyone believe Campen is going anywhere in-season?
     
  23. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Nice post, but only thing I am going to point out is Cliffy

    Wasnt he gone for 10 games? Then came back for the playoffs?
     
  24. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    Oh god shut up and stop being such an optimist that you can't tell when something is obviously not working. No one is expecting us to go undefeated every season. As Packer fans we are allowed to criticize glaring weaknesses on our team. "Ted Thompson hates to pay linemen," this is one of the main reasons we don't have lines like the Pats. However, the Pats don't pay large amounts to their linemen either... you know what they have a great O-line coach. They were able to take a rookie RT last year and make him a starter and not miss a beat. It's possible and please stop getting down on fans for criticizing. Nothing will ever be perfect, but a team with this much talent shouldn't be struggling in these positions.
     
  25. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    In 5 out of the 8 games McGinn had our offensive line at a 2 or less out of 5. Maybe Newhouse is less of a turnstile this season but he still hasn't elevated his play to be considered an effective run blocker. You have to take the whole of the unit to gauge Campens effectiveness. Ultimately results is what matters. 65 yards per game out of the RB and FB added to the Packers inability to convert short yardage situations if they have to rely on their offensive line to provide running lanes for their backs. I say that falls out the position coach going on 6 years now.

    By the way, I am no fan of Saturday and if you read the EDS thread you'll see that yourself. I used Saturday as an example of why the Packers should have at least an adequate line. They have an adequate pass blocking line but a sub-par overall line due to their issues creating those darn running lanes.
     

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