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Sherman was a good coach but not a good GM

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by porky88, Aug 25, 2006.

  1. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    You really think Sherman had a good run as GM? He inherited a team built by Ron Wolf. Mike Sherman didn’t build a winner. Ron Wolf built it. Sherman was a great coach and he coached a winner but his job as a GM was sub par at best.

    Favre was brought in by Wolf.

    Driver drafted in the 7th round by Wolf.

    Mike McKenzie was drafted by Wolf and traded by Sherman.

    Bubba Franks was drafted by Wolf.

    Ahman Green was traded for by Wolf in his last season as GM.

    KGB drafted by Wolf.

    Darren Sharper drafted by Wolf.

    Nail Diggs drafted by Wolf

    Tauscher, Clifton, Wahle, Rivera, Flannigan all drafted by Ron Wolf.

    William Henderson drafted by Ron Wolf.

    Ron Wolf even drafted Cledius Hunt who started for us. Sherman gave him the contract.

    Guys Sherman brought in: Javon Walker, Nick Barnett, Grady Jackson, Aaron Kampman, Al Harris, Hannibal Navies, Mark Roman and I’ll give him Ferguson because it’s been said, Sherman pushed for Ferguson in Wolf’s final Draft over Chris Chambers though. :(

    Sherman brought in only 6 starters and Roman and Navies weren’t exactly solid.

    Now I’m not a “Sherman Haterâ€
     
  2. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    (im not touching this topic with a 10 foot pole)
     
  3. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    I think it goes kind of hand in hand. Can't really seperate one from the other, IMO. I think he was solid, but limited as a coach and a poor GM. That's just my opinion.
     
  4. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    MS I think tried too hard to out-think everyone with some of his picks by reaching at times. I liked what he attempted to do in free agency his first (?) year, though. He took a big gamble to get JJ, Hardly, Glenn, and Darien Gordon to fill all the necessary holes that the Packers had at the time...on paper, it really should have worked...I give him credit for the effort.

    However, in the end, it's obvious his moves just didn't work...whether it was simply bad luck, or bad scouting/decisions is debatable.
     
  5. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    I think Sherman had two majar hamartias. One was hubris. He was too proud to really take suggestions by the staff. Second was that his loyalty got the better of him. He hired friends/close associates when people with better qualifications were out there.
     
  6. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I think I would make a really lousy NFL head coach because it seemed like I was disagreeing with Sherman left and right. He shouldn't challenge this, he should challenge that, he should go for it here, he should punt it there, etc.....
     
  7. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    no, but MS would trade up a lot, so that doesnt matter. packersnews.com writer vaundenanshuahsanen or whatever his name is said he gave draft picks away like "halloween candy" (i thought that was funny)

    (im touching this post with a 9 foot pole now)
     
  8. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Mike Sherman brought in VONTA LEACH?!?! Oh my God, I take everything back!!! Sherman is the best GM who ever lived!!!!!!!!!!
     
  9. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    did a post get deleted here, or am i OFFICIALLY insane?
     
  10. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    MS the man - standing up to Warren Sack when none of his players did. ++

    MS the regular season - division titles. + Had any of the teams in our division been worth a damn in his tenure, this accomplishment would have been graded higher.

    MS the playoff coach --

    MS the GM - He brought in some good players, but overall drafted like he thought we were only one player away from the Super Bowl.


    Mike Sherman was adequate, but considering he had Brett Favre and Ahman Green in the prime of their careers, I view him a failure because he never reached the NFC championship game yet alone a Super Bowl. All in all, he earned his severence check (the signing bonus TT gave him last year).

    And Pyle, you take a lot of latitude crediting MS for resigning players already on the team. With that line of thinking, Driver moves to TT, Grady isn't here anymore, and Leach and Davenport are hardly marquee players. Cole, Jenkins, and Williams are all decent players, and I view Kampman as a very good all around DE.
     
  11. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Not at all. If it was a Sherman bashing I wouldn't of called Sherman a good coach, which he was. I don't blame Sherman for 4th and 26 at all. I blame the players on the field at that time.

    I stated nothing but FACTS about those players. All drafted by Ron Wolf. That is a complete fact and if you can't read it with an open mind, then your nothing but ignorant.

    Did Sherman draft Clifton? No he re-signed him. Sherman also re-signed Hunt (like stated), over paid for KGB, and re-signed Robert Ferguson.

    I gave Sherman credit for Jackson, Harris and Kampman all whom were starters the last time GB made the playoffs.


    Like stated MY POST WAS NOTHING BUT FACTS

    I took the starting roster from 2003, the last time GB won a playoff game.
    No inconsistencies at all. Sherman was a solid Head Coach but could not get it done as GM, which is why Bob Harlan dismissed him as GM. I said before Sherman was a good coach although the defense was a bit soft but Sherman was not a very good GM.

    Out of guys Sherman brought in, only Harris, Well, Barnet, Kampman, Jenkins/Cole/Williams are going to start this year.

    AJ Hawk drafted by Ted Thompson
    Ben Taylor signed by Ted Thompson
    Nick Barnett drafted by Mike Sherman
    Al Harris traded for by Mike Sherman
    Charles Woodson signed by Ted Thompson
    Ryan Pickett signed by Ted Thompson
    Corey Williams drafted by Mike Sherman
    KGB drafted by Ron Wolf
    Aaron Kampman drafted by Mike Sherman (Thompson re-signed him)
    Marquand Manuel signed by Ted Thompson
    Nick Collins drafted by Ted Thompson

    Offense
    Chad Clifton drafted by Ron Wolf (Yes Sherman re did his deal)
    Mark Tauscher drafted by Ron Wolf
    Scott Wells drafted by Mike Sherman (Sherman also placed him on waivers and re claimed him)
    Jason Spitz drafted by Ted Thompson
    Tony Moll drafted by Ted Thompson
    Ahman Green traded for by Ron Wolf
    William Henderson drafted by Ron Wolf
    Brett Favre traded for by Ron Wolf
    Donald Driver drafted by Ron Wolf (although Thompson had to redo the contract Sherman gave him)
    Greg Jennings drafted by Ted Thompson
    Bubba Franks drafted by Ron Wolf (Thompson re did his deal as well)

    How good did this team do? I don’t know, I didn't know they played the season already. Perhaps this team should give up.

    Last years team....

    Offense
    Tauscher - Wolf
    Clifton - Wolf/Sherman
    Flannigan - Wolf
    Wells - Sherman
    Whitticker - Thompson
    Klemm - Thompson
    Franks - Wolf/Thompson
    Chatman - Sherman
    Driver - Wolf/Sherman
    Favre - Wolf
    Green - Wolf
    Davenport - Sherman
    Gado - Thompson
    Henderson - Wolf
    Lee - Thompson
    Martin - Sherman
    Ferguson - Wolf/Sherman

    Defense
    KGB - Wolf/Sherman
    Kampman - Sherman
    Jenkins - Sherman
    Cole - Sherman
    Williams - Sherman
    Jackson - Sherman
    Barnett - Sherman
    Diggs - Wolf/Sherman (Sherman matched an offer that the Lions offered Diggs when he was an RFA)
    Thomas - Thompson
    Manning - Thompson
    Poppinga - Thompson
    Carroll - Sherman
    Harris Sherman
    Roman - Sherman
    Collins Thompson

    Sherman = 18
    Wolf = 11
    Thompson = 9

    Result was 4-12. Now I've already put blame on Thompson for last year. I also blame Sherman. I think both had trouble working together. Sherman didn't leave Thompson much too work with but Thompson didn't bring in any players for Sherman too work with. I've said that a lot.

    When I clearly stated that I hope people will read this with an open mind. I meant it. I now know your true colors. You have no open mind. It's your way or the high way. All of the above are facts. Accept it or deny it. It is what it is. Mike Sherman was a good head coach. He coached many solid teams. Never won a Super Bowl but gave us a chance. Probably underachieved a little bit though. As a GM, he struggled and would out think himself. There is a reason why he is a Offensive Line Coach right now for a 1st year Head coach instead of a Head Coach or GM. Will he be a Head Coach again? Yes I think he will and should. Will he ever be a GM again? No in my opinion he won't because he struggled in his only gig as a GM. His Drafts and free agent picks at test to that.
     
  12. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    It must of but if you want to re read it, I quoted it word for word in my reply above.
     
  13. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    oh, good call. He probably deleted cuz he looked foolish, instead of manning up about it and letting his words stand. I wouldnt put it past the guy who has my old words in his sig(which i appear to have been wrong about, but im a man, and can admit that).

    good work, porky.
     
  14. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    You're not just a man Trom, you're Da Man. Keep bringing us those highlights and articles.

    I wonder how many tackles Grady will have for the Packers this year! That one killed me from Mr. Facts. LOLOLOL
     
  15. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    WTF?! Not only does trom have a fan club, but it is apparently growing! :shock:
     
  16. arrowgargantuan

    arrowgargantuan Cheesehead

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    yeah it was a troll by the name of "stretchmywanger".

    pretty typical stuff. "you guys are hillbillies, peckerwoods, and dumb. im smart."

    stuff like that.

    he's gone though.
     
  17. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    I dont have a fan club, I just have my ...

    [​IMG]

    my packerforum homies, yo!

    or something similar...



    but back to the point of this good thread, I didnt like sherman as a coach much either. He did nothing during the last great years of Favres and Ahmans career (unless NFC North division titles are your superbowl, then yes, hes a superbowl winning coach\gm). Hes a nice guy, he TRIED, and he will always get an A for effort from me...but...im glad a change was made. we wont know if TT and his new coach MM will work out, but a change had to be made, it was obvious. But as packers fans, lets hope it works out, and not root for current regimes failure so YOU look right. Thats not what a fan does.
     
  18. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    I didn't delete my post, AADP did because it was obviously to "HARSH" for you guys. I guess he didn't want Trom to go cry to the mods again.

    As far as this topic goes. I mentioned Grady Jackson because MS brought him in. Where did I say he was still on the team?

    I mentioned Vonta Leach because it is a MS guy on the roster. If you can mention guys like Marviel Underwood I will mention guys like Leach. I guess good blocking isn't an important thing to any of you. Kind of like our GM.


    It's just funny that this thread pointed out one side of the argument. Porky pointed out Hunt's contract which MS signed but FAILED to mention the contracts he gave Driver,Clifton,etc. It's one sided

    Secondly he stated that this team started only 6 Sherman guys. That is inaccurate

    Kampman
    Barnett
    Harris
    Jenkins
    Walker
    Roman
    Leach
    Jackson


    Thats 8 by my count. Plus guys like Cole, Ferguson contributed alot and Diggs was hurt.


    MS's record as a GM was very good and WAS DEFINITELY a better GM than TT has been so far. Time will tell.
     
  19. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Pyle, Sherman tended to draft more athlets that played football as opposed to football players that play football like TT does. Sherman also didn't tend to value draft picks, he traded picks to move up to draft guys who had potential, but weren't the best of character/work ethic guys.

    While TT has had only 2 drafts, he seems to be rebuilding the depth. However that is only good for one more year, TT needs to show once he has gotten enough depth that he can actually draft players who can push for starting spots.
     
  20. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Can I get an example here?
     
  21. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I mentioned Grady Jackson from the start.

    It's not one sided at all. It's not a thread comparing Sherman to Thompson. It's a thread that points out facts that Sherman didn't do to "hot" as a GM and inherited loads of talent.

    Thompson did Bubba Franks, Aaron Kampman (re-signed) and had to redo Drivers contract which was previously done by Sherman. If your going to give credit too Sherman for Clifton's contract. Fine, Sherman didn't draft him, he inherited him and made a good move in re-signing him but Why not give credit too Thompson for Driver, Kampman, and Franks? Makes no sense. Also Hunt was not the only contract Sherman re did. He over paid for KGB when he resigned him and he overpaid for Robert Ferguson when he extended him.


    In the start of this thread, I took the 2003 team since they were the last team to win in the playoffs. 2004 is pretty much the same as that team as well. I did not take 2005. Vonte Leach did not start in 2003, neither did Jenkins, Cole, or Corey Williams.

    From that team Sherman had... Kampman, Barnett, Jackson, Roman, Harris, and Ferguson. You can give a 7th I guess to Walker for being the #3 WR that year.

    7 out of 23 guys then, if you include Walker. That's barley over 1/4 of the starters.

    Also off the top of my head, I can't think of one free agent move that Sherman made that ended up making a difference. His best move was a trade in which he traded a 2nd round pick for Al Harris. He gave up a 4th round pick for Terry Glenn but then shipped him out after 1 year. Joe Johnson didn't really pay off. I could be over looking someone. I hardly call Mark Roman or Hannibal Navies a successful signing.

    Trading for Al Harris. Re-signing Clifton and Driver were his only good moves from a non draft point view.

    From the Draft Barnett, Walker, & Kampman was his only real good picks. Scott Wells you could probably throw in as well. So 4 solid guys in 5 years as a GM. The jury is still out on the rest. I personally like Corey Williams and hope they start him. Carroll I think can become a great nickel back if he plays in the game like he has so far in practices. Kenny Peterson could be on his way out soon.

    For Sherman's winning seasons, I give him more credit as a Head Coach, than I do as a GM. He was fortunate to inherit a team built by Ron Wolf and Mike Holmgrem in my opinion.

    Thompson the jury is still out on all his picks. So far Nick Collins looks good. This Draft Class has potential to field a lot of starters and I'd hardly right off guys like Underwood and Montgomery after one season.

    Time will tell with Ted Thompson.
     
  22. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    In the start of this thread, I took the 2003 team since they were the last team to win in the playoffs. 2004 is pretty much the same as that team as well. I did not take 2005. Vonte Leach did not start in 2003, neither did Jenkins, Cole, or Corey Williams.

    From that team Sherman had... Kampman, Barnett, Jackson, Roman, Harris, and Ferguson. You can give a 7th I guess to Walker for being the #3 WR that year.

    7 out of 23 guys then, if you include Walker. That's barley over 1/4 of the starters.

    Also off the top of my head, I can't think of one free agent move that Sherman made that ended up making a difference. His best move was a trade in which he traded a 2nd round pick for Al Harris. He gave up a 4th round pick for Terry Glenn but then shipped him out after 1 year. Joe Johnson didn't really pay off. I could be over looking someone. I hardly call Mark Roman or Hannibal Navies a successful signing.

    Trading for Al Harris. Re-signing Clifton and Driver were his only good moves from a non draft point view.

    From the Draft Barnett, Walker, & Kampman was his only real good picks. Scott Wells you could probably throw in as well. So 4 solid guys in 5 years as a GM. The jury is still out on the rest. I personally like Corey Williams and hope they start him. Carroll I think can become a great nickel back if he plays in the game like he has so far in practices. Kenny Peterson could be on his way out soon.

    For Sherman's winning seasons, I give him more credit as a Head Coach, than I do as a GM. He was fortunate to inherit a team built by Ron Wolf and Mike Holmgrem in my opinion.

    Thompson the jury is still out on all his picks. So far Nick Collins looks good. This Draft Class has potential to field a lot of starters and I'd hardly right off guys like Underwood and Montgomery after one season.

    Time will tell with Ted Thompson.[/quote:2obpvnst]


    The problem is SHERMAN's guys had POTENTIAL too. Trying to say MS's guys had LESS POTENTIAL than TT's is ludacris. Why do the 2006 Packers have more POTENTIAL than the 2003 Packers?

    I was unaware that you were using 2003 as a reference so I didn't know what you were talking about.

    MS brought in Harris and lets not forget GRADY JACKSON!

    You give TT credit for fixing the problems he created. Are his draft picks going to start on the O-line, of course, because HE failed to pay Wahle. Is Hawk an instant starter? Of course because we were 4-12 team last year. Is Pickett starting? Yes, because Grady is gone.


    My question to you is why are you so confident in TT's abilities. What have you seen from TT that has you so confident? I'm not talking about Potential or What Could Be, I'm talking about right now. What FA has TT Brought in that has made a difference, or hell, even made the team? What draft pick from last year, outside of Collins, has showed signs of being above average? What was Shermans Record compared to TT's as a GM?

    I guess I see things as they are not on how they could be. You're optimism is based on alot of "if's" and "can be's". I don't know how you think TT can have some GREAT EYE for talent when he brought in 5 FA's last year that didn't even contribute. He is continuing the trend this year with Boerighter. TT brought in 1 player thus far that is a contributor, Nick Collins. His MISSES far outweigh his HITS. Maybe MS's did to but the final product won football games.
     
  23. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Sure. James Lee, Donell Washington, Terrance Marshall, Joey Thomas, Jason Horton (not drafted, rather signed). They were all physical specimen/great athletes, but had major flaws in terms of technique while playing football.
     
  24. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    The 2006 Packers are currently rookies. The 2003 Packers had they're chance and most have failed. This was the 3rd camp for the 2003 Class.

    This was the 1st for the 2006 class. This was the 2nd for the 2005 class.. There is a chance that the 2006 Packers Draft Class does bomb. They're is a chance they don't. So far out of the 1st 3 rounds of the 03 Draft, only Ahmad Carroll has done anything but has still disappointed. Donell Washington, Joey Thomas, and BJ Sander aren't on the team right now. Washington was cut before training camp and I don't believe was picked up by another team. Thomas was with the Rams and hasn't done much. Sander was a huge disappointment. So far from the 2006 class we have 4 starters in Moll, Jennings, Hawk, and Spitz. That's a good start hopefully they don't disappoint like the 03 Draft. I can't see into the future. Nobody can. So again it's a wait and see with that class and with Ted Thompson in general.

    I said that and gave him credit.

    I haven't given Thompson credit for anything outside of setting Green Bay up well financially. In my opinion, Pickett is a better player than Jackson. He had more tackles a year ago and is younger. I see that as an upgrade. As for 4-12, I believe that is as much Mike Sherman's fault as it is Ted Thompson's. Both are too blame along with the players.

    1. His track record is nice in my opinion. He worked under Ron Wolf and then worked in Seattle where they built a Super Bowl caliber team. Did he build it? No he deserves 0 credit for what Seattle did a year ago but he was there and apart of the front office that built a contender.

    2. I'm very high on this draft class. I do mocks, and rankings all year. Hawk was my #2 Defensive player only to Mario Williams. Jennings was my #4 WR (Believe it or not I had him going to Chicago in round 2) Colledge I had rated fairly high. So far he's struggled but I still think he can make the adjustments and become a solid player. I had Spitz rated fairly high and Hodge was my #2 MLB only to D'Qwell Jackson and I had him as a mid to late 2nd round pick. Corey Rogers I liked because of his ability to return kicks at TCU. Will Blackmon, I rated as one of the 10 best athletes in the Draft.

    3. I also like what I've seen from Aaron Rodgers. I've stated before he'll be the make or break pick, this guy makes. Brady Poppinga has potential to start at SLB. I think he will sooner than most think. Nick Collins looks good so far to.

    As for your question, like I stated I give more credit to Mike Sherman as a Head Coach than I do a GM through those winning years. In my opinion Sherman as a GM was lucky to receive the talent from Ron Wolf. In my opinion Ron Wolf left Sherman a team that had Super Bowl caliber talent.

    Ted Thompson has been a GM for 2 off seasons.

    Mike Sherman was for 5 off seasons and was hear for 6. 1 as a Head Coach and the other as a GM.

    It's way to early to judge this team. If you haven't noticed, I don't expect anything more than a 500 season. I want this team to play like the Dolphins did a year ago. Win the games you should win. Hopefully pull of an upset in there as well. In my opinion 2007 and 2008 will give us a better look at what this team is capable of. I believe we could see glimpse this year.

    Ted Thompson's free agent pickups haven't done much in 1 year. GB didn't have that much cap a year ago. This year we don't know how they'll do. Again it's a wait and see. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and I'm going to wait and see. I do see some positives. I've stated my reasons above. Mike Sherman's signings didn't do much either. Outside of Roman, Navies, and Jackson, Sherman didn't do much in free agency either for his 5 years here. Jackson was actually a waiver wire pickup from the Saints.
     
  25. Buckeyepackfan

    Buckeyepackfan Cheesehead

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    :sucks: :wall: :wall: :wall: :soapbox: :beersign:
     

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