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Setting the record straight

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Steel Wheels, Jun 19, 2005.

  1. Steel Wheels

    Steel Wheels Cheesehead

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    I find it humorous to read people's posts where they accuse me of saying things I have never said or accusing me of opinions that are totally wrong. Either these guy's are not reading my posts or they can't read very well.

    The Packers have made a huge mistake in bringing the inexperienced and incompetent Mike Sherman to Green Bay. I put the blame on Bob Harlan for allowing the senile Ron Wolf make that decision.

    If you take a glance at the 2000 Packer's roster you will find that Sherman inherited plenty of talent that underachieved under Ray Rhodes. After a very respectable 12-4 2001 season with a 7-1 record at Lambeau, it became evident to the most casual of football observers, that the Packers could not match up to the top teams in the NFL. The 45-17 beating by the St. Louis Rams in the NFC Divisional Playoffs confirmed that fact.

    In 2002 the Packers again had a respectable regular season record at 12-4 with a 8-0 record at Lambeau. But they still could not match up to the best teams in the NFL. 2002 season facts:

    1. Wk 12 tied for the lead in the NFC with Tampa Bay at 8-2, the Packers lose to the Buc's 21-7 in one of the worst coaching jobs by Mike Sherman in NFL history.

    2. Wk 17 where a win gives the Packers # 1 seed in the NFC and HFA throughout the Playoffs. Instead they get a beating 42-17 by the NY Jets.

    3. Packers suffer first playoff loss at Lambeau in history of franchise 27-7 to the Atlanta Falcons in another poorly coached game by Mike Sherman.

    Over the past 4 seasons the Packers have a respectable 44-20 regular season record but still do not match up to the big teams in the NFL. Nothing has changed that in the past 3 seasons under Mike Sherman since it became evident in the 2001 Division Playoff defeat at the hands of the St. Louis Rams 45-17.

    Coupled with the Packers 2-4 playoff record under Mike Sherman, including 2 at Lambeau, their defense has dwindled over the past 3 seasons. In 2001 the Packer's defense gave up 266 pts which rated them 3rd in the NFC and 5th in the NFL. In 2004 the Packer's defense gave up 380 pts rating them 11th in the NFC and 23rd in the NFL and was the worst defense in Packer history.

    Over the past 2 seasons the Packers HFA has dwindled with a 9-7 record at Lambeau. The bottom line is that Sherman has been a poor GM and equally as poor as a HC. The Packers record has been inflated over the past 3 seasons with a 14-4 record vs NFC north teams which is one of the weakest divisions in the NFL.

    To set the record straight I have never said the Packers wouldn't win the NFC North Division . What I have said in the past and will say again now, the Packers will NEVER win a NFC Championship under Mike Sherman as HC in Geen Bay. Sherman is not capable of getting the job done in Green Bay.

    Look for the Packers to go 8-8 (plus or minus 1) in 2005. Mike Sherman will not be resigned for 2006.
     
  2. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    You've made some interesting comments and I agree with most of them. I do believe that Mike Sherm as GM has set this franchise back year. What Ron Wolf didn't understand about Sherman is that he no head coaching or personel experience before taking over this job. I'm hoping that Sherman has learned enough as a coach to be able to take Thompsons players and make them better. However under Sherman there aren't too many players that have excelled other than Walker, Davenport and Fischer. I don't think Barnett has improved at all. I also thought Mike has made some awful call in free agency. I look for him to be replaced at the end of this season.
     
  3. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I can't believe I'm responding to this because the stuff you posted is almost too ridiculous to warrant a comment but here goes.

    TB, who, correct me if I'm wrong, won the Super Bowl in 2002, beat a Packers team without it's two starting tackles on it's home turf where it was dominant for a great number of years, by 2 TDs. That had nothing to do with coaching, it had to do with injuries.

    For the NYJ game, we had, I believe 8 or 9 starters out and two more guys playing out of position to fill in for those guys who were out. We were also playing a fired up NYJ team who needed a win to get into the playoffs. We got killed, but Mike Sherman had nothing to do with it.

    The Atlanta game (see comments above).

    As anyone with a brain knows, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. You can interpret them to say whatever you want. There are many ways to interpret that 14-4 vs. the NFC North stat. You can view it as beating up on the weaker sisters in the league (which still ain't easy in todays NFL) or you can look at it and say maybe the NFC North was viewed as being so weak because it was a one horse race for a number of years because the Packers were so dominant. The bottom line is, you can only play who's on your schedule and Mike Sherman coached teams win twice as much as they lose. If that's a reason for getting fired, then nearly every coach should be fired every year.

    What colour is the Kool-aid where you live Chase?
     
  4. rabidgopher04

    rabidgopher04 Cheesehead

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    Players don't necessarily excel or improve because of the head coach. Often most players work with people who specialize in that area of the team. If players don't excel it's often because they never had the talent to begin with or the head coaches surrounding cast isn't very good.

    With a new defensive regime let's see what happens with Barnett.

    As for players not excelling how about the whole O-line from 2001-2004, Driver and Green? All those players improved and did very well under Mike Sherman.
     
  5. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    I agree with you that players who are well coached improve, the head coach however is primarily responsible for the hiring of the assistant coaches. You will notice that I excluded Larry Beightol and the offensive line because he is the best assistant coach in football. But what happened to Torrence Marshall, what happened to both Thomas and Carrol, what about the tight ends, do you want to really talk special teams? I hope you're getting my point. Mike Sherman is like the CEO it's wonderul to back into the playoffs as we did two years ago, it was even great getting there this year, but what happened in that Vikings game? The Atlanta game was not won or lost based on injuries. I will agree it played a part in the game, what happened in that game is that the Packers came out flat as a pancake and we all knew it from the time they came on the field. The Jets game, the Packers had a chance to have home field advantage all the way through and laid an egg. Again you can talk about injuries all you want, but good teams win when players are injured. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I eat these words one day about Mike Sherman, but I honestly believe that his in experience and lack of knowledge of the game, not his effort, has taken this franchise back a long way. I'm not sure if we can recover from all the blunderous moves made.
     
  6. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    How about commenting on the New England game at Foxboro? Did Sherman coach a pretty good game going to New England and defeating the defending NFL Champs with more than a couple starters out of the lineup? How about beating the Baltimore Ravens in Lambeau with that stellar "D" a la Ray Lewis. Oh, that's right. We only should bring up a few games that make Sherman look completely incompetent. I have never said Sherman was THE ANSWER but by no means is he chopped liver as a head coach. His GM decisions were below average at times, I'll give you that.
     
  7. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    Below average? His choices by and large were awful. He has had some really good games as a coach, the problem is that all too often his teams look unprepared and that unfortunately happens in the playoffs. I mean come on, how in the world do you lay an egg against the Queens in the playoffs? That's simply bad coaching and not having your team ready to play. And truthfully that is the knock on him. He calls a pretty good game though and I hope he does that again this year.
     
  8. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Who's setting the record straight


    The accusations that were made by me and others about your posts is this.

    "...Your posts are always Sherman bashing posts, or set up posts to bash Sherman." YOU have NO OTHER agenda for posting on this or the NC forum.
    And, you will stop and no means to do that. INCLUDING posting stats and Partial stats that will ONLY agree with your argument.

    Otherwise, you have no purpose.

    PROVE ME WRONG! I invite you to prove me wrong! You can do that by posting something other than the obvious anti-Sherman rhetoric that you've posted here.
     
  9. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I can't argue some of the bad decisions he made as GM. Johnson, Hunt, KGB all got huge deals and have underperformed. He selected Jamal Reynolds with the 10th pick. Yes, those are terrible. He also selected Nick Barnett and Javon Walker, everyone thought those were stretches beyond belief and I think we may have two gems when it's all said and done. As far as the playoff loss to the Viqueers, don't put that all on Sherman. Players need to be held accountable too. POOR TACKLING was not Sherman's fault, RUNNING THE WRONG ROUTE was not Sherman's fault, etc.
     
  10. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    I am generally a fan of Sherman's, but there are a couple of issues that bother me to no end:

    1. Teams seem unprepared for 3 - 4 games per season: For whatever reason, MS led teams seem to come out uninspired and unprepared for at least several games per year...and usually against terribly inferior competition. Yes, the players play the game, but the coach HAS to be held responsible for getting them ready for EVERY game.

    2. Gets a lead and goes soft: There is no room in this league for getting all soft on a team when you are up. When your foot is on their throat, push down harder and finish them off. MS and/or Rossley seem to have an intrinsic need to get conservative with games still on the line. The KC game of 2 years ago is all that needs to be noted. As well, how is it his teams can go into halftime hot as a pistol and come out for the second half looking flat. This also occurs at least several games per season under his leadership.

    3. Excessive loyalty to pet players and personal friends: Please, somebody explain Frank Novak to me...Kurt Schottenheimer...Bob Slow wit and his merry band of idiots.....Tyrone Davis.....Cletidus Hunt.....Jamal Reynolds (after we knew he was a bonafide hack)......and giving TR back control of play calling after several games in which MS called masterful games, only to watch the team flounder again under the leadership? of Rossley.

    Don't even get me going on the failure to change up any aspect of the gameplan from two weeks prior when we met the Queens in that embarrassing playoff loss.

    MS has many fine qualities as a HC, and I hope they re-emerge now that that is his only responsibility...but if we see any more of the lame playcalling and lack of confidence in his team as was displayed 2 years ago in the playoff loss to the Eagles... (2 4th and 1s and he calls both wrong!) he should be gone.

    Just a few thoughts on a slow day.
     
  11. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    On your points #1 and #2, I would argue that there isn't one coach in the NFL and that includes the genius Belichick that doesn't get accused and is probably guilty of both of these.

    #3. You may have something there. I agree that he seems awfully loyal to some players that need to produce before getting the big payday...or coaches who seem to be just "hanging on without merit".

    4th and 1's that you refer to bug me really bad; however, hindsight is 20-20. The one he went for and didn't get really sucked but it would have been the greatest and gutsiest call ever if he would have moved the chains. The Packers could have gone to Carolina and on to the SB, winning Favre a second ring. The threads on this forum might look a lot different then, eh?
     
  12. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    "The Packers could have gone to Carolina and on to the SB, winning Favre a second ring. The threads on this forum might look a lot different then, eh?"

    Yes it would be different. Chase wouldn't be here... Well may be.
     
  13. Philtration

    Philtration Cheesehead

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    When the Packers got off to a bad start last year, Packer fans wanted him gone ASAP. Then a few wins come along and everything is happy-go-lucky again. After the Packers lost to the Vikings in the playoffs last season, I saw a lot of the same people on this site calling for this guys head on the old site. After a few months to blow off steam too many of you have put the rose colored glasses back on. I believe that you are very loyal fans but there are some of you that over react one way or the other and that makes me think that you really don't understand the game as much as you would like to believe.
     
  14. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    The people who were calling for his head were always there and the people who support him, but criticize when warranted were always there too. The former were just more vociferous during the early losing streak and after the playoffs than they were during the 9-2 finish (understandably so IMO).
     
  15. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Gotta appreciate a guy who uses "vociferous" in daily conversation.

    Yep, you are correct...there are those who call them as they see them, good or bad...and those that just want to bitch for bitching's sake.

    What type of brew are you going to suprise us locals with on your visit to Lambeau in August? And more importantly, is it a hassle to bring the cool amber juice over the border? Your visit will coincide with several community drunks, such as Sheboygan's "Bratwurst Days". May be something to do in the evening...I mean, an entire weekend of food, beer and bands dedicated to the sausage that makes Packers' fans tingle....get your minds out of the gutter, folks!!!!
     
  16. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    digs, I will be bringing Alexander Keith's India Pale Ale. No problem to bring it over the border so long as it's within the limit.

    Unfortunately, due to my wonderful job, I now have to leave Green Bay on Saturday the 6th of August as I have to be in Ottawa for meetings on Sunday and Monday. We're driving back to Toronto so I need all of Saturday to do so. Really upsetting for me. If you're interested in attending a game at Lambeau this year, I may have a way to do so relatively cheaply. I'll pm you and give you the scoop. I'll be attending the Pittsburgh game on November 6 BTW.
     
  17. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Name one post during last or ANY losing streak or a bad loss where I didn't support the Pack and the decision makers.

    By YOUR reaction, it makes me think that YOU REALLY DON'T know as much as you profess to know.
     
  18. Philtration

    Philtration Cheesehead

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    I do know that I can count on you to be the first, and sometimes the only one to respond as if I am personally attacking you Obi1annabe. Do you have a guilty conscience? I stick by my statement. You would be one of the fans that over reacts in the direction of blindly defending all things Packers and turning away from any thing that is not all sun shine and rah rah, we are number one. The other responses were intelligent whether they agreed with me or not and not so overly emotional.
    By the way, that whole CAPITALIZING words to try to EMPHISIZE your point thing is kind of WIERD!
     
  19. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    So are you going to put up or shut up? I stand by MY Statement.

    I've challenged you to put up or shut up many times and you haven't put up anything yet.

    Truth hurts doesn't it?

    Again, Why is it so tough to figure out that YOU are the one that is lost on a rival's board?

    Packers fans that have backed the Packers with Sherman or otherwise have done that whether they lost or not. Those who have not backed Sherman's Pack have spoke up when they lost a lot.

    So what? You must be letting all the lousy seasons get to you. Your incessant whining is telling that picture.

    Again I challenge you. Come up with ONE post that I or ANY of the Packer fans who YOU consider Sherman backers, have put up that was anti- Sherman or Anti-Packers. Can you find one from Bruce? Gravedigger? Me?

    YOU sir, post like the Bears Play football... Pathetic.
     
  20. leopardmech

    leopardmech Cheesehead

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    Guys lets keep the posts on topic there is no need for this crap. :eek:fftopic:
    Crap and smack when started breed uncontrolably and then you are left to sift through it all to get to the football related discussions. If you have problems with each other please take it to pm or email.
    Thanks

    Later
    Leopardmech
     
  21. Steel Wheels

    Steel Wheels Cheesehead

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    Obi1, this forum has a "Smack Area." Kindly refer your garbage to that area.
     
  22. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Leopardmech...

    Thanks for your words of advice. I feel that I AM on track. I discuss the Bears pathetic football play, the fact that there are 2 types of Packer fans when it comes to Sherman.

    I AM talking Packer football.
     
  23. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    TO - when do you plan on arriving in town for this game?
    We're staying at the Tundra Lodge - coming in on early Saturday to take in the HOF and a few other events. Actually, we're leaving for Wisconsin about Wednesday evening for a day or two around Milwaukee & Lake Geneva areas. I used to live around Burlington for over a decade. My youngest daughter is now living just off Hwy94 in Kenosha.

    Anyone showing up for this game and arriving the day before should try and plan on meeting either at Nick Barnett's new place or over at Fuzzy's Place. I can PM anyone my cell phone number upon request.
     
  24. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    WOW...the party continues to grow! Should be fun...........
     
  25. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I'll be there late on Saturday night, probably around 6 local time. I'm staying at the Best Western Midway. Where is Nick's new place. My fiancee and I are hooked on Texas Roadhouse on Oneida Street (don't have them in Canada), but I'm sure I can convince her to check out a different restaurant. I haven't been to Fuzzy's for 2 years so that's an option too.

    I'll also be at the Bucs game this year, with some friends from Toronto who are Lambeau virgins. Not necessarily Packer fans per se, but I'm sure we'll have them converted by the end of the weekend. Staying at the same hotel for that game too.
     

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