Same old crap defense (2021-22 version)

Mondio

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They definitely didn’t start strong, and King is a glaring liability, but I figured it was going to be 4-5 weeks until they really started playing well together. It’s a similar defense but it’s still new and new coaching.

there were some good individual performances out there despite how it looked. Effort was poor to start, that got better but still has a ways to go. But many plays were the result of not everybody playing as a defensive team. I expected some of that.
I didn’t expect them to look that bad though either.
 

barbpackerfan

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Sigh.

*Too tired to repeat same stuff that was said in last x years*

When was the last time we had a good defense?
Yes that new Defensive Coordinator doesn’t look like He has made any improvements. Same old crappy Packer defense! Don’t understand why they brought King back again either??!! He was a gigantic bust of a draft pick. I am starting to see why Leonard turned the job down and stayed at Wisconsin. Rodgers is looking like a joke too! No one will want Him after this Season if He does want to leave GB. The whole team was a walking disaster yesterday. We could be in for a LONG season!
 

captainWIMM

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They definitely didn’t start strong, and King is a glaring liability, but I figured it was going to be 4-5 weeks until they really started playing well together. It’s a similar defense but it’s still new and new coaching.

there were some good individual performances out there despite how it looked. Effort was poor to start, that got better but still has a ways to go. But many plays were the result of not everybody playing as a defensive team. I expected some of that.
I didn’t expect them to look that bad though either.

Unfortunately the defense needs to improve in a heartbeat though, otherwise the Packers might find themselves at 1-3 at best entering the Bengals game.
 

Mondio

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Unfortunately the defense needs to improve in a heartbeat though, otherwise the Packers might find themselves at 1-3 at best entering the Bengals game.
Trust me, I don't expect them to come out playing at that level either while they figure some things out either. Half of their problem on Sunday was effort to start the game. They were better in the 2nd half at least in the effort catagory. In the first half, if half of them were playing with effort it would have been an improvement.
 

Pkrjones

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Moving towards game #2 these are the lineup changes I would make:
- Slaton is in on downs 1 & 2. Lancaster spot duty only, giving Slaton or Clark a breather.
- Passing 3rd downs Slaton out, Za'Darius in.
- King inactive or relegated to ST, Stokes outside CB.

Our safety(s) shouldn't be our leading tacklers! It's up to the front 7 to plug lanes and make the stops.
 

Nick Karbula

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Moving towards game #2 these are the lineup changes I would make:
- Slaton is in on downs 1 & 2. Lancaster spot duty only, giving Slaton or Clark a breather.
- Passing 3rd downs Slaton out, Za'Darius in.
- King inactive or relegated to ST, Stokes outside CB.

Our safety(s) shouldn't be our leading tacklers! It's up to the front 7 to plug lanes and make the stops.
And this was the problem I said from the start. Some people were knocking me for saying this, but that DL is awful. It is hard for me to understand how they could not find better guys upfront than what they trotted out there on Sunday. I'm sorry, Clark, Lowry, Keke, Slaton, Lancaster, Heflin are not putting the scare into any offense or OL. Probably quite the opposite. Clark is probably the only player on that squad that deserves a starting spot on an NFL team. Lowry is garbage. He just is. I know he made a few tackles, but he rarely gets any push up front. Keke is almost nonexistent. For his first game, Slaton played okay. I said for this line to be successful he would have to step up and that is a lot to ask out of a rookie. Lancaster, I'm just done with him. He continually gets beat up and down the field. Then take a look at the ILB. Campbell, Barnes, Burks, Summers and McDuffie. Same story. Barnes and Campbell with quite a few tackles. That's just in the stat book though. With no push up front they were tackles down the field. Rarely at the point of attack. Secondary is okay, but King was constantly getting picked on all game long and by ole Crab Legs himself. Just a disappointing group all together. It didn't help much that the DC in Barry played super vanilla. I'm not sure how they fix this, but hopefully they make some changes and quickly.
 
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Moving towards game #2 these are the lineup changes I would make:
- Slaton is in on downs 1 & 2. Lancaster spot duty only, giving Slaton or Clark a breather.
- Passing 3rd downs Slaton out, Za'Darius in.
- King inactive or relegated to ST, Stokes outside CB.

Our safety(s) shouldn't be our leading tacklers! It's up to the front 7 to plug lanes and make the stops.
True that on the Safeties.
Just a casual observation, but in our so called 3-4. We often have 2 down DL, then we bring up 2 OLB near the LOS. Then it seems like we have 1 ILB drop into coverage. So we basically have a 4-1-6 or 4-2-5 type scenario. Those are very light boxes and if we were were blanketing Receivers with double teams it would be somewhat effective. Problem is we were playing lots of zone and their Receivers just dropped into holes and for constant chain moving plays.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Uhm, what exactly changed from last season to make anyone think the defense would be any better? Gute didn't bring in any veteran help and the new DC that MLF picked has been terrible everywhere else. People expecting material improvement were just basing that hope on, well, hope.

That being said, the defense we saw against the Saints was not the bad defense was last year, that was a truly awful defense that showcased terrible communication, a level of decline by the DEs that I didn't was possible (foolishly I thought "how much worse could they be?"), and evidence that the DC is as bad as most thought.

Kenny Clark is showing signs of decline because he's basically been playing 1-on-5 his entire career and the guy Gute brought in to play ILB (Campbell) looked like the 55th highest paid ILB in the NFL.

The Saints will be a good team, I think people watched Brees leave and forgot that Brees was actually not a good QB last year and the Saints still have the 2nd best RB in the NFL and a top-2 offensive coach in the NFL. Did I think the Packers defense would look like Bowling Green? No, but then again I didn't count on Kevin King picking up right where he left off against the Bucs, a terrible DC doing a terrible job preparing the team, an injured Z being limited to 19 snaps, and a dline that looks like it might be contention for worst in the NFL (if Clark can't recapture his 2019 form).
 

milani

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Uhm, what exactly changed from last season to make anyone think the defense would be any better? Gute didn't bring in any veteran help and the new DC that MLF picked has been terrible everywhere else. People expecting material improvement were just basing that hope on, well, hope.

That being said, the defense we saw against the Saints was not the bad defense was last year, that was a truly awful defense that showcased terrible communication, a level of decline by the DEs that I didn't was possible (foolishly I thought "how much worse could they be?"), and evidence that the DC is as bad as most thought.

Kenny Clark is showing signs of decline because he's basically been playing 1-on-5 his entire career and the guy Gute brought in to play ILB (Campbell) looked like the 55th highest paid ILB in the NFL.

The Saints will be a good team, I think people watched Brees leave and forgot that Brees was actually not a good QB last year and the Saints still have the 2nd best RB in the NFL and a top-2 offensive coach in the NFL. Did I think the Packers defense would look like Bowling Green? No, but then again I didn't count on Kevin King picking up right where he left off against the Bucs, a terrible DC doing a terrible job preparing the team, an injured Z being limited to 19 snaps, and a dline that looks like it might be contention for worst in the NFL (if Clark can't recapture his 2019 form).
You said it perfectly. The defense played worse. Physically they cannot matchup to other offensive lines. Not now but after last year Gute should have been thinking not just a new coach but a new coach for a 4-3. Then get the players who are made for that front 7. When you have a run defense that can get gashed like that it does not matter how good your corners are. Super Bowls can be won with an average QB like a Trent Silver but they cannot be won by a weak defense. Especially one that is helpless against the run. But we talked for years to get a couple studs on that DL to control the line of scrimmage. Never happened and never will. Two strong DLs will take up at least 3 bodies and allow your linebackers to roam a step earlier. The Urlachers, the Ray Lewises were able to do that because of their fronts.
 

captainWIMM

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...and even that defense was shaky for the better part of the season.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. While the 2010 defense wasn't as dominant as the one in 1996 the Packers ranked second in points allowed, held six opponents under 10 points and were a major factor in beating the Eagles and Bears in the playoffs.
 

milani

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I don't think that's a fair assessment. While the 2010 defense wasn't as dominant as the one in 1996 the Packers ranked second in points allowed, held six opponents under 10 points and were a major factor in beating the Eagles and Bears in the playoffs.
True. They lost a lot of close ones. The defense was decimated by injuries. But our offense was not the big striker it was in 2011. We played more ball control and lacked in the run game without Ryan Grant. And to be honest we had a pretty soft schedule that season. New England was our toughest opponent. And the NFC was not so good. Eagles went to Vick due to an injury in game one. Atlanta could score but did not have much pass rush. And the Bears were a Lovey team. Not much offense. Dallas lost Tony Romo also. We had the Jets, Fins, and Bills that year. None had a decent QB.
 

mradtke66

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but a new coach for a 4-3.

Why? 3-4s, with 3 defensive tackles (3-4 ends are 4-3 DTs in size and responsibility) are typically better run defenses.

If we had a 4-3 coach show up tomorrow, our front in base defense (assuming everyone is healthy) would be Gary, Clark, (1 of Lowry/Lancaster/Slaton) and Z, with Preston at SAM. In nickel/dime, it'd be Gary, Z, Clark, Preston. And other than the second DT in base, that 4-3 DC would be very happy with our group.
 

milani

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Why? 3-4s, with 3 defensive tackles (3-4 ends are 4-3 DTs in size and responsibility) are typically better run defenses.

If we had a 4-3 coach show up tomorrow, our front in base defense (assuming everyone is healthy) would be Gary, Clark, (1 of Lowry/Lancaster/Slaton) and Z, with Preston at SAM. In nickel/dime, it'd be Gary, Z, Clark, Preston. And other than the second DT in base, that 4-3 DC would be very happy with our group.
And maybe no worse than what we have now. Need more DLs than LBs on the roster to do it. But we were a 4-3 until Capers came along. Aaron Kampman was a decent DE.
 

mradtke66

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And maybe no worse than what we have now. Need more DLs than LBs on the roster to do it. But we were a 4-3 until Capers came along. Aaron Kampman was a decent DE.

True, Kampman was a good defensive end, no argument there.

I guess the point I was trying to make is 4-3 vs. 3-4 is kind of moot. Partially because in the modern NFL, nickel is the defacto base defense. Partially because (technically, anyway) 3-4s should be the better run defense. Partially because a 4-3 under (think the Seahawks base, the Packers under Schurmer) is a 3-4 with 4-3 personnel. Partially because a scheme swap would keep most of our players in similar positions/responsibilities and not fix any deficiencies on the roster.

Our OLBs would be come defensive ends and we're still missing a complementary player for Clark in the middle. Our ILBs become a MIKE and WILL and honestly, we kind of have a hole at SAM. Preston could do it, but even he is a little miscast. His greatest use would still be primarily as an EDGE defender. And we don't have a good backup for position. So we haven't fixed any problems and have created a new one.
 

captainWIMM

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True. They lost a lot of close ones. The defense was decimated by injuries. But our offense was not the big striker it was in 2011. We played more ball control and lacked in the run game without Ryan Grant. And to be honest we had a pretty soft schedule that season. New England was our toughest opponent. And the NFC was not so good. Eagles went to Vick due to an injury in game one. Atlanta could score but did not have much pass rush. And the Bears were a Lovey team. Not much offense. Dallas lost Tony Romo also. We had the Jets, Fins, and Bills that year. None had a decent QB.

The most astonishing fact about the 2010 team is that despite losing six games that season the Packers never trailed by more than seven points at any point during that year.
 

Sunshinepacker

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No worries, fans will still continue to insist it's all the defensive coordinator... Although I'm willing to believe that this year based on the ridiculously awful hire MLF made.
 

Nick Karbula

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No worries, fans will still continue to insist it's all the defensive coordinator... Although I'm willing to believe that this year based on the ridiculously awful hire MLF made.
I don't remember ever saying anything about the hire. I didn't like it. I mean, he was on the 0-16 Lions staff. Regardless, I truly believe it is a lack of talent. I said it in the offseason and after this last game. That DL is terrible. I don't care if we have Clark or not. He can't do it on his own. Slaton is a rookie and I do like his potential. However, that is not helping us now. For a lack of a better term, the rest of that line is garbage. If there is not push up front the rest of the defensive unit suffers. I think we will have to get used to giving up 28-30 points per game. I hope the offense wakes up, which I'm wagering it will.
 

Mondio

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I'm not going to say we have a strong defense, but I do think we have players that are too good to look that poorly as a unit.

On paper if you told me I had to start a defense with players with the talent of Smith, Smith, Gary, Clark, Amos, Savage and Alexander, I'd be ecstatic. They are all quality players at premium positions. I know they can't do it themselves if there are glaring holes in other places, but you should be able to take "just guys" and plug them in around and create a pretty serviceable Defense.

I expect to be better than just serviceable and they were anything but last week.
 
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Uhm, what exactly changed from last season to make anyone think the defense would be any better?
One thing you’ll learn about me is that I’m generally not one to subscribe to “popular” opinion. It’s obviously a new D setup, but you’ve got to give anyone more than 1 road game to evolve. That’s just common sense and I realize that’s in shortage these days.

To answer your question. I would expect a slow start to a new system (not game 1). The reason I would expect some D improvement as the year progresses mainly comes from the belief that players early in their careers (Rashan, Savage, J’aire, Keke, etc..) mixed with known quantities.. Clark, Z, Preston, Amos should conceivably grow in wisdom. Nothing in this league beats live game experience. I expect several players to grow and improve snd those include several Rookie draft selections. Player Growth is a normal expectation by year 3 and we have plenty of that on our team.

Secondly, we really didn’t lose any veterans other than Kirksey who’s a wash there with Campbell. If anything we gained a few prospects in Stokes and Slaton. I don’t see where we’ve regressed in either talent or experience from last season. My expectation is a very slight improvement from last season but not until we gain momentum from losses like this.
People expecting material improvement were just basing that hope on, well, hope.
I think it’s easy to pile on to the kid that’s already knocked down. Cmon. It’s game 1 and imo we played a pretty good team there in NO, they weren’t a bottom feeder last season. You ad to that our O getting a late start and it’s how life comes at you. Being prepared is more important than people think and I didn’t see a prepared team. Did you?
 
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