Rodgers against top defenses

[ls1bob]

I think Aaron is as great or the greatest QB I have seen. That being said,maybe he has gotten a little too comfortable with himself and there aren't people around him telling him he needs to work on his game a little and shoulder some blame also. I have no clue what goes in the locker room,but I am sure if he owned up to his mistakes in public that maybe the other guys would try harder. Knowing that you are the one that is going to get blamed regardless of how hard you try and that someone else isn't going to shoulder some of the blame you are going to get to a point where you say to yourself " why try?" I am not a big Colin Cowherd fan,but to an extent I agree with some of Colin's points. http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/...odgers-great-talent-not-a-great-leader-110215

 

[easyk83]

A 77 yard passing game from Rodgers will get your attention. His comment about lack of separation was a cry for help. Surely they finally realize something most be done.

I remember the 2010 game against the Jets. I went on a message board prior to the game and remarked that I wanted to see a lot of trip sets crossing routes and pick plays to force them to play more zone. Didn't happen and we only scored 9 points I think.... so same problems but a different year. Thank God we played a zone D in the Super Bowl.

Yeah, the Niners handled our offense with ease as well, went only back until 2013 to find out which elite defenses we played at home.



I don't expect him to throw for less than 80 yards ever again playing a full game. He will struggle with this year's receiving corps against good defenses as long as the coaches don't change some things schematically.

We're agreed here. But I think part of the problem is one of MMs strengths. He's persistent to a fault and he believes in his players to a fault. He's always been hesitant to make changes.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But I think part of the problem is one of MMs strengths. He's persistent to a fault and he believes in his players to a fault. He's always been hesitant to make changes.

Hopefully he'll realize sooner than later that this year the receivers won't get the job done without any help though.

 

[easyk83]

Hopefully he'll realize sooner than later that this year the receivers won't get the job done without any help though.

Which kind of reminds me of the old 2007 offense, there was much more focus on just getting the ball into the players hands and letting them run after the catch. Good things happen when you get the ball to receivers who know how to run with it. Of course not having a deep threat like Greg Jennings hurts.

 

[Half Empty]

They didn't focus on players faces like they do now, back then it was just about football.

EDIT: There's also a generational difference, back then men were not to show emotion. They were supposed to be numb and heavy drinking problems were preferable to showing that you had feelings.

Wow, talk about mountains and molehills.

 

[TJV]

I'm still pounding the drum of schematic changes, it's something Ive been carping about for years now.

Have you been doing that here? We've talked about the zone blocking scheme and Capers' schemes. And we've talked about Rodgers holding onto the ball too long bypassing shorter routes for longer ones. But I don't remember a discussion of 'too much isolation routes' vs. 'more man coverage beaters' routes.

 

[PackerDNA]

I know this is vague, but as to schematic changes and such; I don't know if we have the types of receivers that can pull it off.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I know this is vague, but as to schematic changes and such; I don't know if we have the types of receivers that can pull it off.

If the Packers receivers can't get open on man beater routes there's no way they are capable of separating from corners isolated one-on-one.

 

[red4tribe]

First of all Rodgers is 9-11 in the regular season (2-7 since 2013) against top 5 scoring teams in his career, including three games this season vs. Denver, Seattle and St. Louis. The other numbers are off a bit as well but overall connect the dots.

I will go back and check my other numbers later today but I did not include Seattle as a top five since I went by PA as opposed to PPG for this season.

 

[easyk83]

Have you been doing that here? We've talked about the zone blocking scheme and Capers' schemes. And we've talked about Rodgers holding onto the ball too long bypassing shorter routes for longer ones. But I don't remember a discussion of 'too much isolation routes' vs. 'more man coverage beaters' routes.

I'll confess I've used some poetic license. I have criticized the team for not scheming more man beater routes against good bump n run defenses and for obstinately playing into the strengths of certain defenses. Though to be honest Ive posted more of these complaints in the last 3 days than I have during the entirety of my membership here. I'll see if I can't dig up old posts on the subject.

 

[pacmaniac]

Nothing is going to change schematically, just look at all the player quotes here:

http://www.packers.com/news-and-eve...emselves/f1d41b58-d008-44a2-9f52-7f827d2cef8f

Aaron Rodgers

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

: “I missed some throws I usually hit. I missed a few that I’m used to hitting, which is disappointing. I have to do a better job of hitting the ones that you should hit.”

Receiver Randall Cobb

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

: “I feel like it’s my fault. I feel like it’s on me. I have to make more plays when I get opportunities. I’m going to go out and I’m going to play better. I’m going to do more for this team.”

James Jones

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

: “It’s me polishing my route-running, me getting better and getting open and doing what I’ve been doing since I got here. I didn’t do a good job. I have to get better. I’ll be working on my craft this week.”

Davante Adams

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

: “I’m going to run my routes and get open. That’s what I’ve got to do.”

So apparently it was all about Aaron missing throws and the receivers not making plays and not running polished routes.

 

[PackerDNA]

At some point, your opponent will figure out how to counter what you do. You have to be able to adjust, and counter their counter moves.
But at the end of the day, it's about matchups and the ability to get the ones you want, and execution.
And as Vic Ketchman always says,"It's players, not plays".

 

[Deleted member 6794]

At some point, your opponent will figure out how to counter what you do. You have to be able to adjust, and counter their counter moves.
But at the end of the day, it's about matchups and the ability to get the ones you want, and execution.
And as Vic Ketchman always says,"It's players, not plays".

Well, but if the receivers can´t get open constantly for several games the coaching staff has to make some adjustments to help them get open.

 

[PackerDNA]

Well, but if the receivers can´t get open constantly for several games the coaching staff has to make some adjustments to help them get open.

They can try, Captain; there's really no other good alternative.
I just don't know if we have the makeup and types of players at WR and TE that can pull it off.
Especially without Nelson. The loss of what he brought to the table, and the following pressure and extra duty that put on the rest of the receiving group, may prove too much to overcome in the end. At least effectively enough.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

They can try, Captain; there's really no other good alternative.
I just don't know if we have the makeup and types of players at WR and TE that can pull it off.
Especially without Nelson. The loss of what he brought to the table, and the following pressure and extra duty that put on the rest of the receiving group, may prove too much to overcome in the end. At least effectively enough.

I think the Packers receiving corps is good enough to get open against most defense on man beater routes. With Cobb being double teamed a lot and Adams not fully healthy they obviously don´t get it done on isolation routes though.

In addition I would like to see the offense use different formations than lining up with three receivers, an in-line tight end and a RB in the backfield most of the time.

 

[PackerDNA]

Agreed, Cap. I'd like to see different routes and a lot more motion. Too vanilla at times.

 

[Un4GivN]

Many fans are quick to fire coaches or sign free agents but I think the simpler approach would be for Rodgers and his teammates just to play better.

This 100 times over... Football will still be about beating the guy in front of you. I think Aaron has had a tendency to play timid against top pass defenses. And it has been something I have seen for years that the Packers finesse offense it shut down rather easy with swift punch in the face.

WR aren't great at getting off tight man coverage, TE has been a disappointment. Need someone to step up and make some plays. It's not one person, but I do believe Aaron deserves the most of the blame. He's the leader of the offense, an offense this talented that is 22nd or worse by now? Needs to change. And when I see a team come out flat in a big game and lay a big egg, that is coaching and leadership.

 

[Un4GivN]

First of all Rodgers is 9-11 in the regular season (2-7 since 2013) against top 5 scoring teams in his career, including three games this season vs. Denver, Seattle and St. Louis. The other numbers are off a bit as well but overall connect the dots.

While that record since the start of the 2013 season is terrible you have to be aware that the offense scored an average of 20.6 points in those games, which is way above the average of points allowed for top five defenses. During his first 11 games, in which he has a 7-4 record, the Packers averaged 19.3 points.

The differnce since 2013 is the defense has allowed 24.4 points per game playing against teams with a top five defense compared to 15.8 from 2008-2012.

It´s pretty tough to score a ton of points against elite defenses and the Packers have done an above average job since Rodgers became the starter. The defense is mostly to blame for his less than stellar record over the last three years.

This is completely giving no blame to one of the highest played players in the league and putting it on the defense. That crap. Rodgers has been mediocre. Look at the TV, watch the games and tell me otherwise.

Want to bring up points scored, last year in the NFC championship game the Defense had 5 count it 5 turnovers! And we lose. Rodgers goes 19-34 for 178 1TD and 2 INT. Thats a joke! Ohh and 3/14 on 3rd down. Those things are on him.

Tom Brady 2 weeks later vs the same defense. Go 37-50 328 4TD and 2INT. Even though Toms defense allowed just and many yards, only 1 turnover. Tom still scored more points. For everyone here that thinks that was on a defensive collapse, partially yes... But Rodgers who gets paid more than most of the defense combined **** the bed. And that is the reason we lost that. 5 Turnovers and you score 19 points is joke.

San Francisco the year before.... 17-26 177.... Is that a joke? You got out passed by Colin Kaepernick? Go 3/11 on third down conversion. Of course they given up more points during his losing spree. When the offense sucks the defense is on the field longer, the opponents offense gets the ball more often. THUS have more opportunity to score. Watch the games and say it is on the defense.

No game is completely on one person. But compare stats equally put Tom's overall record on the road vs Aaron's.

Tom Brady
Home: 94-15
Away: 73-34

Aaron
Home 49-10
Away 30-28

My last point is points scored is a HORRIBLE metric to look at.

Like you count bears wins cause of their scoring defense. WELL guess what, they had like 20th ranked or higher pass defense that year. The bears played Tom that year too he threw for 369 and two touchdowns. The Packers were lucky to win that game too. Going against a third string quarterback Rodgers goes 2-11 on third down and overall 17/30 244 0 TD and 2 INT and doesn't score a point on offense from like 12 minutes left in the second quarter till the end of the game. Defense did help they won that game! Or Rodgers would have got outplayed by Caleb Hanie in a playoff game.

You're also not taking into account his greater turnover rate causing the difference in average score over the last two years as well.


(Disclaimer) I only use Tom as a comparison, cause he is the most elite quarterback at the moment and I think it is fair to put them in the same category for this type of comparison.

 

[Mondio]

I'd like to see them commit, as a team, to running the damn football. Eddie had 2 carries to start the game and a first down. The 2nd run was a classic put the foot in the ground and head up field for 10+yards. Then He doesn't touch the ball again for 10+ plays. That's a really good way to approach getting your running game going. Everyone from the Line to the QB and the backs need to commit and get it done.

If it's going to take passing for 400 yards a game and facing 6 man fronts to have a "running" game then we don't have one and this team isn't doing anything anyway.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

This is completely giving no blame to one of the highest played players in the league and putting it on the defense. That crap. Rodgers has been mediocre. Look at the TV, watch the games and tell me otherwise.

Want to bring up points scored, last year in the NFC championship game the Defense had 5 count it 5 turnovers! And we lose. Rodgers goes 19-34 for 178 1TD and 2 INT. Thats a joke! Ohh and 3/14 on 3rd down. Those things are on him.

Tom Brady 2 weeks later vs the same defense. Go 37-50 328 4TD and 2INT. Even though Toms defense allowed just and many yards, only 1 turnover. Tom still scored more points. For everyone here that thinks that was on a defensive collapse, partially yes... But Rodgers who gets paid more than most of the defense combined **** the bed. And that is the reason we lost that. 5 Turnovers and you score 19 points is joke.

San Francisco the year before.... 17-26 177.... Is that a joke? You got out passed by Colin Kaepernick? Go 3/11 on third down conversion. Of course they given up more points during his losing spree. When the offense sucks the defense is on the field longer, the opponents offense gets the ball more often. THUS have more opportunity to score. Watch the games and say it is on the defense.

Like you count bears wins cause of their scoring defense. WELL guess what, they had like 20th ranked or higher pass defense that year. The bears played Tom that year too he threw for 369 and two touchdowns. The Packers were lucky to win that game too. Going against a third string quarterback Rodgers goes 2-11 on third down and overall 17/30 244 0 TD and 2 INT and doesn't score a point on offense from like 12 minutes left in the second quarter till the end of the game. Defense did help they won that game! Or Rodgers would have got outplayed by Caleb Hanie in a playoff game.

You're also not taking into account his greater turnover rate causing the difference in average score over the last two years as well.

(Disclaimer) I only use Tom as a comparison, cause he is the most elite quarterback at the moment and I think it is fair to put them in the same category for this type of comparison.

Once again you take a look at some random games that fit your assumption and try to prove a point with it while completely ignoring the overall picture. There´s no denying Rodgers had some bad games with some of them occurring in the playoffs but guess what Brady has had them as well. There´s a reason why Rodgers is the highest rated passer in NFL history as well as the highest rated active player in postseason history.

No game is completely on one person. But compare stats equally put Tom's overall record on the road vs Aaron's.

Tom Brady
Home: 94-15
Away: 73-34

Aaron
Home 49-10
Away 30-28

My last point is points scored is a HORRIBLE metric to look at.

If points scored is a horrible metric to look at why do you list Rodgers´ and Brady´s records which, you guessed it, are based on points scored???

 

[PackerDNA]

I remember Joe Montana having some horrendous playoff games, too. Just sayin'....
I don't think serious career comparisons can be made until after the guys being compared are retired.

 

[TJV]

My last point is points scored is a HORRIBLE metric to look at.

Really? Points scored and points surrendered seem to be a rather important metric in a game decided by, you know, points.

 

[Un4GivN]

Really? Points scored and points surrendered seem to be a rather important metric in a game decided by, you know, points.

Not when judging a Defenses overall effectiveness vs elite quarterbacks it isn't.... Let's see last week had #1 scoring defense vs #1 passing defense. Who won? Which defense looked better to an eye tests? Which quarterback had a harder time throwing the ball when they needed to?

All these metrics in the end are flawed, go by the eye test. Who are the best pass defenses the Packers have faced in the past 3 or 4 years. Regardless of what the stats say. 49ers, Seahawks, Bills, Bengals a couple years back, the giants teams before this year.

How has he done is your opinion overall against the best defenses he faces? What you would expect from a two time MVP, super bowl champ?

That is the point im trying to make is rodgers bad? No of course not. But he isn't in the same league as Brady in any metric that matters, win%, playoff win %, championships... The case is always made well he has a 4:1 interception ratio. What does that matter when you lose the games that matter? When you don't bother to show up when your team needs you the most.

You want to compare people in his league under the same circumstance, another example. @ Buffalo 2014 Tom goes for 27-37-361 4TD and 0INT. Aaron didn't get off the bus. Tom Brady shows up when it means the most, and has his best games against the best opponents. Does he lose? Sure but that is the outlier not the norm. Rodgers is getting to the point that if we play an elite defense, either our defense will win us the game. Or we are going to lose.

 

[Mondio]

I really like Brady in that respect, heck, I really like him overall. I think he's among the best of the best, easily. But I don't recall too many times Tom was under pressure like Aaron was last Sunday. Eye tests work in that way too. Brady isn't getting rid of the ball quickly, if all his receivers are running down field, and Brady isn't looking like Brady under that pressure either.

 

[Un4GivN]

I really like Brady in that respect, heck, I really like him overall. I think he's among the best of the best, easily. But I don't recall too many times Tom was under pressure like Aaron was last Sunday. Eye tests work in that way too. Brady isn't getting rid of the ball quickly, if all his receivers are running down field, and Brady isn't looking like Brady under that pressure either.

That is a really good point... One question I always wondered and without giving my opinion.

What do you think about Rodgers as a leader especially in these big games or when you know the team has hit adversity? Obviously we can only judge what we see on the field.