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Releasing Favre was genius...and other 08 observations

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by RyanMegaphors, Jan 15, 2009.

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  1. RyanMegaphors

    RyanMegaphors Cheesehead

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    Can everyone admit yet that releasing Favre was absolutely the right thing to do?

    Now, people like to say "AR couldn't win us a game in the last few minutes...Favre would have". This is complete BS and I'll tell you why.

    Under AR, we score just about 1 pt less a game. The D let up about 11 more per game. Overall scoring is not down. So when you jump on AR for late-game play, you really have to understand that AR actually had us in better position BEFORE having to make a late game heroic effort. Favre NEEDED to make the comeback...AR had us ahead already at times Favre would have had us just below or tied.

    Point being, it was absolutely the D's fault in late quarters. Also, look at what happened to Favre this year. His arm wore out. He had a horrid year. His arm would have worn out with us too. If you make AR sit on the bench for another year, again we'd have no idea how good he was, nor is it fair to have such a player ride the bench for 4 years, period. He could have easily been the #1 pick, and as we see now, he likely SHOULD have been the #1 overall pick. You can just let that sit for 4 years. He ended up the #6 QB in the entire league...more TDs than Favre, better rating, less INTs...he lacked support.

    How to improve in 2009? Get rid of our worst LB, AJ Hawk. This guy is a bust, is exposed in the passing game, gets dominated by RBs and FBs in run blocking, and NEVER makes an impact play. Dude doesn't even look like he cares. So lax. Not enough effort.

    Pick up either Peppers or Asomugha...and draft a DE or DL in the draft with the #9 pick. Then with the rest, find some decent OL.

    Really really look at the RB position. I'm not convinced Grant isn't our 2nd or 3rd best back. Brandon Jackson looked good...seems the weight training did him good. Keep Lumpkin...he was incredibly talented in college and if he can just get healthy, I feel he's possibly the future.
     
  2. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    I agree with this i hate when fans say that oh favre would of made us a comeback. I also agree and disagree with aj hawk. I think if you move him to mlb he will be better because he can not cover a rb or a Te so if we move him to M LB he wont have to cover as much. But also his problem with run stopping was also d line the d line has to get some sort of penetration some times instead of every one getting pushed back
     
  3. OHIOFAN

    OHIOFAN Cheesehead

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    I 100% agree that getting rid of Favre was the right move. Rodgers will be great and is very good now; he has a certain calmness about him like a young Montana. Favre would have lost many games for the Pack, not pulled them off. When Favre got down he would panic and press, I also agree that Hawk is out of position and had better get it together. This team drafts high character players which I love, but once in a while we need a firey leader on defense. We need a player who will smack the opposing player in the mouth and put fear in the receivers. We need someone with emotion and the fire Ray Lewis, Shawn Merriman, or Troy Polumala to get this team to play to its potential on D. They need to know that they can dominate, and they need to feel that no one is going to come into their turf and show them up. The Pack has a lot of good payers on D and I think that Woodson is great, but we need a playmaker to lead the D and to start Kicking some A##.
     
  4. ksios

    ksios Cheesehead

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    I wonder if you guys were calling for Favre's head in 07 when he won all those games. I doubt it. Before this season started, Brett was our best chance at making the playoffs, as it turns out, I agree that the packers made the right gamble and released Farvre. In the long term Aaron was and is the best option for the Packers. The problem was that the packers, for the most part had the same team as the year before, why would you not want to take one more shot at the playoffs and maybe a SB. It is easy to look at what happened to Brett AFTER the season is over and pat yourselves on the back for letting him go. the truth is that Brett had to learn a new offense and personell with less talent than the Packers and had a better season with the Jets than Aaron did with the packers. I believe to the man that the Jets team could not compete with the talent of the Packers. Aaron is going to be a good qb, but I don't see him having a Hall of fame career in Green Bay. this is just my opinion and I hope the Packers can figure out a way to get back to the playoffs, but I don't see them in the SB anytime soon.
     
  5. RyanMegaphors

    RyanMegaphors Cheesehead

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    Ok, but is Hawk big and intense enough to be an impact MLB though? To me, he may have Ron Dayne-itis. He was just fast enough, just strong enough to really be a good college LB...to outrun the blockers, to catch the less crafty RBs, overpower the college TE. But when he reaches the NFL level, the TEs are big enough and strong enough to block him well on runs/pass protection and fast enough to outrun him on routes. The RBs are skilled and strong enough to stop him in his tracks on a lead block and blitz pickup.

    The OL just manhandles him time and time again and I think he knows it. I think his lack of impact has broken his intensity and he doesn't even try anymore because when he does, he doesn't win the battle.

    Its just like Dayne. He was just fast enough and strong enough to run over and outrun college players. Get him to the pros, no longer is he fast enough and strong enough to do it...so he ends up very avg.

    I think Hodge is the better MLB. He also is exposed in the passing game, but he crashes the line hard and shows up on run D. There were a few good plays he made. I dont remember seeing AJ do squat all year.

    Here's how I rank our LB core.

    OLB
    1. Chillar
    2. Barnett
    3. Poppinga
    4. Hawk
    5. Hodge

    MLB
    1. Barnett
    2. Hodge
    3. Poppinga
    4. Hawk
    5. Chillar
     
  6. RyanMegaphors

    RyanMegaphors Cheesehead

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    Actually, I did think this. I'm not the prototypical Favre fan though. I was not on his jock. He was good, but the media made me puke about him. I felt that Favre was very good, that he maybe could get us there, but he'd never be able to win it again. He has a way of unraveling himself and his discipline in the big game. After his last game as a Packer, I was convinced it was the right move. He looked like an old man wanting to get out of the cold. Of all the players on the field, Favre was the most miserable looking. That wasn't Favre of old. And you have to ask yourself, can the Packer succeed in the playoffs...in Lambeau...with an aging QB who no longer loved the cold? MM/TT said no. And they knew...they had the foresight to know the QB play of AR would not be as big of a gap as all the Green Bay Farvian fans thought it would. They were right.

    This was not the same team as last year. We had 5 healthy WRs basically all year...so we could run the 5 wr sets. That was the formation that we dominated on. This year, Martin and Jones were basically hurt all year. Last year, we had a healthy DL/LB crew that provided a pass rush and stopped the run. This year, we lost Corey Williams, Cullen Jenkins got hurt, KGBs skill disintegrated into thin air, we lost Barnett, Woodson played hurt, lost Al for a few weeks, lost Bigby.

    So how is this the "same team"? To all the Green Bay Farvian fans...simply put, it isn't.

    When you say Brett had a better season as a Jet than Rodgers as a Packer...you're really magnifying the influence of the QB and his outcome on a game and diminishing the role of everyone around him.
     
  7. catchpatch

    catchpatch Cheesehead

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    I wasn't calling for his head, but I wasn't too excited in 2008 about the prospect of bringing back a 38-year-old quarterback who broke down in cold weather and hadn't done any work in the offseason.
    1) Favre fell apart when it got cold in 2007. Not exactly the kind of problem you want to have when making a playoff run in Green Bay.
    2) It was obvious to a lot of people that the 2007 Packers weren't really as good as their record. They endured virtually no major injuries and they got lucky in a few of their wins. Favre or no Favre, no one was expecting another 13-3 season.
    This assertion is nothing short of preposterous. It's a flat-out lie. Favre was throwing to one of the best pairs of wide recievers in the NFL and was supported by one of the best pairs of running backs in the NFL. The Jets offensive line was much, much better than the Packers' and their defense palyed better than the Packers' defense as well. The Jets are an all-over better team than the Packers, period.

    And to say that Brett Favre had a better season than Aaron Rodgers is even more ridiculous. In what aspect of play did Favre even approach Rodgers, let alone exceed him? The truth of the matter is that a mediocre quarterback could have taken this Jets team to the playoffs, and Favre couldn't even manage mediocrity.
     
  8. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    what about desmond bishop he came in in vikings game and made some huge plays he forced a fumble against adrian stopped him in the backfield on 4th and inches but the only think he has to learn is how to cover otherwise hes a great run defender. I say we put him or aj hawk in the middle because they are not good at pass defense and have nick barnett on the outside and for the other olb spot we need to draft some more lbs in the positon but but if i had to pick chillar because hes a good coverage guy but he made sopme nioce hits in all his games and took his hole
     
  9. ksios

    ksios Cheesehead

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    I would take Jennings and Driver over any of the Jets recievers. to Say the Jets team looked better than the Packers Offense to me is preposterous. The only players better than the packers on offense were the running backs, and Thomas Jones faded just like Brett in the last five games. The one area that I agree that I have to take back is the defense. I totally agree that the packers were not "the same team" as in 07. I have to appologize for that. the injuries did hurt the team, and they are getting older. The reason I feel that Brett had a better season than Aaron is not based on stats alone. My point was that Brett did not have enough time to learn the new system (Brett's fault) and Aaron had several years as a backup to learn the system. Brett won more games (with the help of his team mates) than Aaron. I like Aaron, I'm not sold that he is the future of the team. I would be looking to the draft for an up grade. If Packer fans are happy with a team that is 5-11 then so be it. In my opinion, the team needs to find a impact player for qb that can make up for the short commings of our defense until we can rebuild. Is Aaron that player, I don't think so as a 5-11 record would show. Do I think we would have made the sb with Brett, not a chance, but we may have had a chance to make the playoffs. We'll see how next year goes. I for one hope that I'm wrong, I want Aaron to succeed. I don't see the Packers going very far. Ted T. won't do what is necessary to bring any FA that will make a big impact. Can you say $20million under the cap.
     
  10. pacman5252

    pacman5252 Cheesehead

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    What about Desmond's first play, where he missed a tackle and Chester Taylor ran another 50 yards on a screen? To me, Bishop is just too raw and is a career special teamer. I still think Hawk will pan out. He played with a bad DL and a hamstring injury all year, which if you ever had one they really suck and affect your speed. He played well his rookie and second year. Don't call him a failure yet.

    Right now with the guys we have now, I'd go Chillar- Barnett/Bishop(ACL concern)-Hawk. I hope we can bring in 2/3rd rounder to compete and to add depth.
     
  11. catchpatch

    catchpatch Cheesehead

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    I won't try to compare individuals, but try to come up with better pairs of WRs in the NFL than Cotchery and Coles. Fitzgerald and Boldin, Jennings and Driver, maybe Smith and Muhammad.There is no denying that the Jets have one of the best WR pairs in football. And the Jets could afford to have Jones trail off, because they had another marquis running back, whereas the Packers don't even have one.

    Older? They were still the youngest team in the league. The injuries did kill them, as did Thompson's negligence about the defensive line. More than once, the Jets defense bailed Favre out after a late turnover. Aaron Rodgers had no such luxury.

    If quarterbacks are judged by the team's record as you propose, Kerry Collins is a better QB than Peyton Manning and Kyle Orton is a better QB than Drew Brees. Aaron Rodgers is an impact player. He just played one of the best seasons for a first-year starter in the history of football. I get that you like Brett Favre. Hey, I like Brett Favre, but it doesn't make me too stupid to see the obvious fact that Aaron Rodgers is a good quarterback. And who do you see on the draft that's going to put up the kind of numbers Rodgers put up this year, let alone be an "up grade"?

    By the way, getting to the playoffs this year would have taken at least ten wins, and Favre couldn't even get ten wins with a better team and an easier schedule. At some point, you're going to have to admit to yourself that Favre's mistakes on the field kept the Jets out of the playoffs. Favre had a bad season, period. Maybe some of this can be attributed to his having to learn a new system, but Favre played his best football at the beginning of the season and got worse as the season went on.

    Oh, and the Packers were 6-10, not 5-11.

    Aaron Rodgers will be just fine. He was good this year (4th in passing yards, 4th in passing TDs, 6th in rushing yards, 1st in rushing TDs, 6th in passer rating, etc., etc., etc.) and will be even better next year after a season of experience in this offense and improving play from Jordy Nelson and Jermichael Finley.

    As for free agents, I don't see a Reggie White out there right now, but I expect Ted will find somebody. Probably not a Pro Bowler, but someone who can solidify a weak spot.
     
  12. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Like hawk never gave up a huge play or al harris or charles woodson or nick collins
    sure he missed the tackle but ajhawk has been doing that the entire year. Are Lbs are bade at covering Tight ends and running backs that is the worst for us. plus Desmond bishop youve never even seen him play for all you know he could be raw :rock: all im saying is from what ive seen he could be a pretty good Lb with the right coaching
     
  13. Burr

    Burr Cheesehead

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    Rodgers isn't as good as Favre, so no, I still don't agree with the decision. You can put the sole blame on the D Line, but I honestly believe we would have won the NFC North this season with him under center, D Line or no D Line. And catchpatch, Cotchery and Coles are not top receivers in the NFL. Where'd you hear that from? Quite frankly, I'm surprised they have starting jobs ANYWHERE in the NFL. Our 3rd and 4th receivers are comparable to them. And Favre had some pretty small windows to work with if you watched any of the Jet's games, and he still had the highest completion percentage in the NFL throughout the entire first half of the season. Rodgers, statistically, did good. But watching him - not so much. He takes wayyy to long to find an open guy - he wouldn't throw it unless they were WIDE. That can't be blamed on the offensive line or receivers either. And then he would occasionally miss wide open guys too.. almost all of his deep balls were underthrown for that matter. That's not saying he never hit guys in stride, but he did give up several opportunities. A lot of Favre's interceptions were longer throws too - why not take some chances? You can have Favre throw a 40 yard pick.. or have Rodgers do nothing and then punt it just as far (assuming the punter isn't Frost). Even with all the interceptions, he still ended up with a higher completion percentage. He's still the more accurate passer.
     
  14. ksios

    ksios Cheesehead

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    It is interesting to me that we blame the defense for the Packers problems, then turn around and blame Favre for the Jets collapse and then say it was a team effort that they won as many games as the Jets did. You can't have it both ways. The Jets defense had a worse let down than the Packers, and T jones didn't have one game over a 100 yards in the last five games. He also only scrored 2 touchdowns in the last four or five games. I wonder how many times Brett through an interception on 3rd down, where they probably would have had to punt anyways. There was nobody better threading the needle than Brett. It has been said we have a young defense, the only problem with that is our corner backs, I wouldn't exactly call them young any more.
     
  15. catchpatch

    catchpatch Cheesehead

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    What made the Jets defense and running game look bad at the end of the season was the constant turnovers. And guess who was turning the ball over? Good ol' Number Four. It was noted by the commentators in the Jets' last game against the Dolphins that Favre himself turned the ball over twice as many times as the entire Dolphins team in 2007. Turnovers change games, period.

    As for having things both ways, you take a quarterback who played a horrible season and credit him for his team's success, then take a quarterback who had a great season and blame him for his team's failure. It is obvious to everyone in the world except you that Brett Favre had a bad season, one of the worst of his career. It is equally obvious that the Jets would have made the playoffs had they not turned the ball over so much down the stretch, and Favre accounted for most of their turnovers.

    Favre was the weak link in that chain. The Jets were a pretty good team, and Favre deserves some credit for that, but ultimately Favre's mistakes kept them from being a playoff team.
     
  16. catchpatch

    catchpatch Cheesehead

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    You must have been watching a different Brett Favre than the one I was watching.

    Over the last three seasons (two of which were with Chad Pennington), Cotchery and Coles have averaged a combined 1,848 yards a season. That's with six missed games between them and sharing the ball with a solid one-two rushing attack. You'd be hard pressed to find many other pairs of wide recievers who can put up those kinds of numbers consistently, especially in that situation. I maintain that Cotchery and Coles are one of the top WR pairs in the NFL, and the numbers bear it out.

    Favre did play pretty well in his first few games. But his numbers were skewed well into his long slump by the one awesome game he played against Arizona.

    I think it was by design that Rodgers stuck to the open man. When you've got the kind of recievers the Packers have, you shouldn't have to be forcing it into coverage. You're right that Rodgers holds the ball too long; that's a pretty common mistake by young quarterbacks. I expect we'll see less of that next season. You're also right that Rodgers isn't the deep thrower that Favre was in his prime. But hey, who is?

    Don't you think it's a little silly to dismiss all of Rodgers' impressive statistics the way you just did and then tout the sole statistical category in which Favre exceeded Rodgers? Favre's completion percentage exceeded Rodgers' by two percent. That's all. The fact that you consider that a more significant statistic than six fewer touchdowns, 530 fewer passing yards, nine more interceptions, and 13 fewer points of passer rating is downright ridiculous.
     
  17. ksios

    ksios Cheesehead

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    Catchpatch, it is clear to me that you are in bed with the whole Rodgers thing. In time I maybe also, but not at this time. To tell the truth I wanted both teams to do good, but I wanted the Jets to do better, for one reason.... I hate Ted T and believe that he has made some bad moves. I want him out of GB and will suffer losing season after losing season until he is gone. That could be the reason I'm not so high on Aaron yet, I don't know. We are lucky were are in such a weak division. In almost any other division we would not or could not compete. I know there are weaker ones, but not many more. I was impressed with Aaron toughness through his injury, I'll give him that, and I will gladly drink the cool-aide if I'm wrong about his future. I'll wait to anoint him god when he produces. By the way, why do you think Aaron didn't get picked for the pro bowl if he had such a great season ( Brett didn't deserve to go... I know .... I know). It seams very few people felt he was good enough to make hmmmmm...
     
  18. catchpatch

    catchpatch Cheesehead

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    Hey, no one likes Ted Thompson. His mishandling of the defensive line is probably the number one reason the Packers had such a bad season. I'm not obsessed with Rodgers; I just acknowledge him as a good quarterback. The only people who don't are those whose idealized image of Brett Favre would be ruined by accepting this truth. Brett Favre was one of the best quarterbacks in the history of the game. Now he's getting old and it's time to move on, and the Packers are lucky to have a talented young guy to move on to who's had time to learn the game from the bench.

    As for the Pro Bowl, I don't think it's any knock on Rodgers to say that Warner, Brees, and Manning got in ahead of him. They all played great seasons.
     
  19. ksios

    ksios Cheesehead

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    I can't wait to see Aaron in the pro bowl this year.... oh wait he didn't make it. How can that be... he is the best QB out there. It must be the defenses fault he didn't make it. I'm kidding. I will admit that he deserves to be in the pro bowl more than Favre, I don't understand that one Pennington deserves to go more than either one of the AFC's backups. I would have like to see Aaron over Eli but who's team won more games. I will tell you IMO I think both teams (Jets and Packers) were major dissapointments. In the Championship game last year, there were more than just Brett's pick that cost the game. The Giants fumble where instead of falling on it when it is sub-zero out, we try and pick it up and run with it. I believe that the fumble was close to mid-field. If we fall on it, who knows but the only thing people remember is Brett's pick. Fair enough it did end up costing us the game. The week before ( in the snow and cold) Brett lights it up, the next week he doesn't.. as they say from a hero to a zero.
     
  20. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    Agreed... The "I love Favre-4-Ever" bandwagon needs to give it a break. AR is the present and the future. He played great this year and was let down by the defense.
     
  21. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    Everybody knows that the Pro-Bowl is based mostly on "fan votes". This is the reason Favre made the Pro-Bowl over Philip Rivers even though he lead the leage in INTs.

    I call this the "Warren Sapp syndrome". Remember when he made a few Pro-Bowls at the end of his career that he did not deserve?
     
  22. ksios

    ksios Cheesehead

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    like I said I was kidding about Aaron, you are correct with the fan votes, but then again the pro bowl should be about the fans getting to see whom ever they want to see. I also agree with the fact that Aaron is the present, and only time will tell if he is the future. my only point against all the Favre bashing is that he is one of a very few players who made the Green Bay Packers who we are today. Between him and Reggie, they put Green Bay back on the map of the NFL. I am sad at all the fans who turned their back once he was gone. Maybe you will all claim that you didn't but by the title of this forum, it seems that some have. I for one will never turn my back to one of the best Packer player ever to play for us. If we all had a little respect for the man and felt a little depressed that he's gone( not that he had a great season for the jets), we don't have to cry lol!! I guess I would be able to give Aaron a little more credit. After all Aaron IS our QB not Brett. Go Pack Go!!
     
  23. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    All I have to say about this debate is this..

    You, ( that is in general ) or I did not cause the issues this past summer on why he was let go..I am not going to get into that..

    I know if he was with the Pack I would have supported him 100% just like I did AR...

    There are/were players I thought that needed to go and expressed my views about them in the past..I didnt think Brett had to go, but he was..So I moved on and supported AR..



    To say Brett brought the team back to upper tier is correct, to say he means a lot to the city, state and the NFL is correct...To say he is one of the best if not the best is correct...Everything you can say about him in a positive light is true...

    But to give him a free pass because he did all that ^^ Is wrong IMO

    Now....

    I hear people bashing AR for things, but when Brett has done it or has done even worse, they are okay with it..

    To me that is just odd...Brett is a 17+ year vet, he SHOULDNT be making those mistakes...Or am I wrong in thinking that??

    He throws an int in the NFCCG but people are okay with it, cuz of what he has done for the team??? a 17 year vet and gets a free pass...Yet Ar does it and he is bashed to know end?



    Its a double standard, and its ridiculous...
     
  24. ohiopacker

    ohiopacker Cheesehead

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    My take on Favre- he retired- so the Pack went with Rogers AND drafted 2 QB's- thinkin -life w/o Favre - THEN Favre wants to come back -which put the Pack in a difficult spot-things happened and we traded Favre for a draft pk - which ended up a 3rd rd pk.It all SUX , I wanted Favre to end his career with the Pack- but - another way to look at this is - If Favre stayed retired - the Pack gets nothin- he ended up gettin traded and we got a 3rd rd pk out of it. Now Favre doesn't know if he will come back next yr - puttin the Jets in the same situation. ??? If Favre would've said he was gonna be back with the Pack BEFORE the draft , he would STILL be a Packer ! = frustr ;( ation !
     
  25. RyanMegaphors

    RyanMegaphors Cheesehead

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    ^^ Exactly. Brett Favre never was the smartest though. He never knew enough to keep his mouth shut...ala speaking on Walkers contract...admitting Gruden tried to get him to TB after Gruden told Garcia he didn't, throwing the team under the bus when they underperformed, hissy fits when we didn't get Moss...ect. He's, simply put, not a smart guy. Talented? Yes. Gutsy? Yes. Smart? No.

    I just dont get how people can say we would have won those games with him. The net loss of pts was 1 point. He wouldn't have been in the same positions as AR was. We would have scored less leading up to the attempted comeback.

    One could easily say that Favre simply had that good last year because MM flat out made him be more conservative and higher percentage routes than before. Didn't he have like a rating of 70 or so a year or 2 before this good last season?
     
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