Receivers

[dansz15]

Ok so I read an article that put a MONSTER smile on my face in one of the years fantasy magazines and found that others said the same thing.

First off, they all think that Driver (no smiles) is heading towards the end of his career and is not anything like he used to. Personally, I think this is BS, looking at him he looks like he is in the shape of a 28 year old and with Jennings becoming a lights out threat his production is simply cut. Example: Anthony Gonzalez in Indy. With Harrison in there at the 2 option out of respect his stats were killed. Subtract Harrison this year he will have monster numbers. I know this is a far fetched comparison it's just food for thought about how one receiver can simply hinder another's affect (White and Tony Gonzalez in ATL?)

But the main point of the article was about James Jones and Jordy Nelson (smiles). They felt that Jennings is on his way to becoming a top 3 receiver in the NFL in both fantasy and real life (big numbers, clutch plays). Behind Driver, who will still be the consistent 2 option, Jones and Nelson are apparently holders of top 15 potential according to the mag. They felt that both have the talent to become game stoppers, and if Jones is healthy he can have a 800 yard 6 td year and Nelson a 650-700 yard season also adding 4-7 TD's of his own (numbers are my estimates in a perfect world).

My thought is that I also believe that Jones and Nelson have potential to be top talents in the league. Nelson at KSU had super glue on his hands catching 120 some odd balls his senior year. He may not be the fastest on the field but has a knack for getting the ball. Jones, if he stays healthy I think has potential to post Boldin-like numbers once Driver retires. Result? Jennings, a lights out receiver with Jones, a wonderful backup man similar to Boldin with a Welker type guy in Nelson who just catches ball after ball. Now add Finley, who IMO has potential to become a top 10 TE statistically, that could be the next big crew in the NFL.

I really think that the passing attack has potential to post similar numbers to Arizona's team, Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston. Although I DO NOT think that Jennings and Jones are as talented, they are a poor man's version which is nothign to scoff at, it still leaves them both top 15. I have been thinking about this for a few days now and wanted fellow Packer fan's insight. I also fully expect a Viking fan to post on this thread and mindlessly rant about Percy Harvin and how much they think Jennings is overrated because they have nothing of their own to talk about.

Don't get me wrong, Harvin is good, but wait until he stops showing up to workouts because he stayed up late watching something like Scrubs or the Real World. :jester:

Sorry for the rant hopefully some of you guys find it interesting!

That being said and the book is written, does anyone agree with this? Although some of us are afraid of the post-Donald days,

 

[PackersRS]

I agree with you about our receivers. And the thing is, ARod is 25. Warner is 38. And Leinart doesn't seem like he's going to be a good QB. He played well his rookie year, but has failed since then. So our corps are probably going to outnumber Arizona's in a few years. That's not to say ours are better. Jennings is a beast, but Fitz is the best receiver in the NFL. And Jones can't be compared to Boldin. But like you said, Jennings will be a top 5 receiver for years to come, Jones AND Nelson will develop into great 2nd WRs, and Finley, if he matures, can become a gamebreaking TE.

 

[ThinkICare]

I do worry about the post-driver years, but Jordy seemed to show real promise last year. Hopefully James Jones will get back into tip top shape because he was really lagging last year. Which receiver will get the No. 2 spot when Driver is gone? I think Jordy will, but if Jones performs like he did 2 years ago it will be a really tight race and will be interesting to see how that pans out.

 

[PackersRS]

I do worry about the post-driver years, but Jordy seemed to show real promise last year. Hopefully James Jones will get back into tip top shape because he was really lagging last year. Which receiver will get the No. 2 spot when Driver is gone? I think Jordy will, but if Jones performs like he did 2 years ago it will be a really tight race and will be interesting to see how that pans out.

I don't think we'll EVER have a concrete #2 receiver. I think in some packages, Jones will be used, and in some, Jordy will. Not to mention that we're a team that uses 3 and 4 Wr a lot. I think MM will mix it up pretty well...

 

[dansz15]

I don't think we'll EVER have a concrete #2 receiver. I think in some packages, Jones will be used, and in some, Jordy will. Not to mention that we're a team that uses 3 and 4 Wr a lot. I think MM will mix it up pretty well...

I couldn't agree more. They have 2 receivers that actually could be number ones on some teams but the wealth they will have will be deadly. Like I said, Arizona type numbers, but maybe more total talent, obv. Fitz is insane but Jennings over Boldin and JN and JJ over Breaston any day. I think there is little to worry bout, aside from injuries of course. All will work out.

 

[Raptorman]

So let’s take a look at MN and GB WR’s and TE’s.

Green Bay TE’s: 59 Rec. 539 yards 9.6 yards a catch. 6 TD’s, 1 TD per 9.3 receptions
Minnesota TE’s: 53 Rec. 753 yards, 14.2 yards a catch. 7 TD’s. 1 TD per 7.6 receptions.

Green Bay WR’s: 278 Rec. 3632 yards, 13.1 yards a catch. 24 TD’s. 1 TD per 11.6 receptions
Minnesota WR’s: 172 Rec. 2528 yards, 14.7 yards a catch. 20 TD’s. 1 TD per 8.6 receptions.

Now I am not going to sit here and say Green Bay’s receivers are not any good because they are. They catch a lot of balls because they are thrown a lot of balls. But if you break it down to a per reception basis they don’t appear to be head and shoulders above the Vikings receivers. Percy Harvin is an unknown at this point and anyone who says he will be good, or bad, is a fool. Troy “stone hands” Williamson was supposed to be good. We all know how that turned out. Of course MN doesn’t have a QB to throw the ball to these guys so I am sure that they will be undervalued and under appreciated by most.

Sorry for not mindlessly ranting about how good Harvin is going to be. I just don’t know how good he will be.

 

[ThinkICare]

I definitely see what you're saying RS, but they are going to have an official depth chart and someone will have to take up that No.2 Spot after Driver retires. Both Jones and Nelson will fit into McCarthy's schemes and I just hope Jones can put that injury nonsense behind him.

Harvin looks to be explosive and take up multiple roles in the Vikes offense with being effective. The huge thing is if he's ready for the NFL after that serious leg injury he sustained. He performed well his Senior season, but that adjustment from college to the pros could be brutal for Harvin because of his past injury. I could just be cautious for Harvin or just have some wishful thinking.

 

[Packerlifer]

Driver could play at a high level for 3-5 more years. The guy keeps himself in fantastic shape and has such a positive attitude. Only a sudden serious injury will curtail his career as a starter. or at worst No.3 or 4, in Green Bay.
If his numbers dropped a bit last season, and it was only a bit, it was more due to Jennings' emergence and Aaron Rodgers having more rapport with Jennings.
Driver was Brett Favre's "go-to" guy since 2002 so a different qb and additional receiving options rather than decline in ability on his part were part of the Driver story in '08.

 

[PackersRS]

Driver could play at a high level for 3-5 more years. The guy keeps himself in fantastic shape and has such a positive attitude. Only a sudden serious injury will curtail his career as a starter. or at worst No.3 or 4, in Green Bay.
If his numbers dropped a bit last season, and it was only a bit, it was more due to Jennings' emergence and Aaron Rodgers having more rapport with Jennings.
Driver was Brett Favre's "go-to" guy since 2002 so a different qb and additional receiving options rather than decline in ability on his part were part of the Driver story in '08.

Driver is 34. He won't play at a high level for more 3-5 years. In this level of competition, there's no way, in a position like Wr, a 38 year old can play at high level, no matter how he conducts himself. Him playing at a high level being 34 is astonishing. I think he'll be something like Marvin Harrison, play at a high level till he's 36. BUT he'll probably retire then. I don't think we'll keep him at that age, unless he agrees to take a serious pay cut.
BTW, high level is being a #2 receiver, or at least being a slot receiver, since we play the 3Wr package a lot.
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ThinkICare, I understand what you're saying, but nowadays an official depth chart is BS... Wes Welker was the 3rd receiver in the pats depth chart in 2007, but we all know he was, in the short routes, Brady's go-to-guy, along with Moss in the intermediate and long routes.
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Raptorman, I'm pretty sure you don't think that your Wr are as good as ours. You know that those numbers aren't close, except for touchdowns, which is explained by the constant 8 in the box defenses played you. Shiancoe would compete, and possibly earn the starting job in GB over Lee. And Berrian would be a very good #2 receiver, because of his speed. But that's it. You don't have a receiver the quality of Greg Jennings. You don't have a receiver the quality of Donald Driver. Even him being 34, he would start at your team. Sidney Rice is a promising Wr, who would compete with Jones and Nelson. And Harvin is a rookie, who although VERY explosive, didn't have to run good routes in Florida. I confess that haven't watch a lot of games from him, but I saw some of his highlights. Didn't see him catch a pass in traffic, getting hit and staying with the ball. Didn't find many highliths of him catching deep routes. Saw a lot of screen passes, quick slants, and A LOT of him playing Rb and motion plays, with the Qb option...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34--XTjboDI"]YouTube - WR Percy Harvin Highlights Florida 2008[/ame]
Not to say he won't be a very good NFL player. But noone considers Reggie Bush a premier running back...
What I'm trying to say is, you have very good complementary Wrs, that would make a very good corps if you had a #1, go-to-guy. But you don't. And we have 2.

 

[Philtration]

Yes, Harvin has skill but those wish bone type pitch outs that he ran so many times at Florida does not work so well in the NFL.

He will be facing LBs who can run a hell of a lot faster then the ones he faced in college and they can lay you out when they get there.
They are going to sniff that out right from the snap.

Reggie Bush has found that out.

 

[Schmitty327]

Driver is still a huge threat on the field. Both Driver and Jennings make each other better. You have to make a serious effort to cover both of these guys. More teams are putting their focus on Jennings these days which is why I think Driver will have a pretty good year. Now all we have to do is get our damn ground game in order so Rodgers can sell the play action a little better. I really want to see the Packers work Finely in more this year. At 6-5 thats a nice target. We just have so much depth at WR that we can keep our guys fresh and if one goes down we got good players to back em up.

 

[Raptorman]

Raptorman, I'm pretty sure you don't think that your Wr are as good as ours. You know that those numbers aren't close, except for touchdowns, which is explained by the constant 8 in the box defenses played you. Shiancoe would compete, and possibly earn the starting job in GB over Lee. And Berrian would be a very good #2 receiver, because of his speed. But that's it. You don't have a receiver the quality of Greg Jennings. You don't have a receiver the quality of Donald Driver. Even him being 34, he would start at your team. Sidney Rice is a promising Wr, who would compete with Jones and Nelson. And Harvin is a rookie, who although VERY explosive, didn't have to run good routes in Florida. I confess that haven't watch a lot of games from him, but I saw some of his highlights. Didn't see him catch a pass in traffic, getting hit and staying with the ball. Didn't find many highliths of him catching deep routes. Saw a lot of screen passes, quick slants, and A LOT of him playing Rb and motion plays, with the Qb option...

Not to say he won't be a very good NFL player. But noone considers Reggie Bush a premier running back...
What I'm trying to say is, you have very good complementary Wrs, that would make a very good corps if you had a #1, go-to-guy. But you don't. And we have 2.

Ok, now that you have stuck your neck out, what do you consider a #1 WR's to have as far a as numbers go? Since Green Bay has two and apparently MN has none. Because I am curious as to what constitutes a Number 1 in you mind.

 

[PackersRS]

Ok, now that you have stuck your neck out, what do you consider a #1 WR's to have as far a as numbers go? Since Green Bay has two and apparently MN has none. Because I am curious as to what constitutes a Number 1 in you mind.

Stats wise? A 1000+yds, 80+ rec., 8+ tds guy. Top 15 receiver. But mostly a guy that commands double coverage.

Greg Jennings is that. DD has been that since 2004... DD last years doesn't have the tds, but that's because Jennings has been the #1. If he was with another team, he would be the starter.

Bernard Berrian is your primary receiver, and he never posted 1000 yards. He comes close. But he doesn't have the receptions. He had -60 last year. That's not enough for a true #1 receiver.

 

[ThinkICare]

I agree with PackersRS about the No.1 receiver thing. I think Berrian can definitely be a No.1 receiver in a few years or so. He is definitely a serious weapon though for the vikings and Harvin should be used a slot receiver so he can sneak by the LB's. Sidney Rice looks to be a threat too, needs to work on his game though, but should be kept an eye on.

 

[dansz15]

Ok, now that you have stuck your neck out, what do you consider a #1 WR's to have as far a as numbers go? Since Green Bay has two and apparently MN has none. Because I am curious as to what constitutes a Number 1 in you mind.

Berrian is an excellent reciever, and potentially top 5 in the league when it comes to down-field routes, long posts or flies. His issue is that it does not seem likely that he will be they type of guy to catch 80 balls and post 1000 yards, and 8-10TDs. Another issue could be QB, where they currently have no QB that has the talent to truly unleash his potential.

On the other hand, Berrian makes a wonderful 2 threat. Possibly one of the best in the league. And I am not going stats wise, but it doesn't look like he has the route-running ability nor the top notch hands to make him a top 15 receiver. We could all be wrong, maybe a new QB could be the remedy, but I am not sure. He is no doubt a threat, but mostly in stretching the field, which can work in his favor with his speed but matched up with an agressive corner or a zone defense watching the upper middle of the field he is much less effective and less likely to be able to get that ball in the likes of guys like Boldin, Marshall, Smith, among others.

 

[Raptorman]

Ok, so Berrian is not a #1. He missed 1000 yards by 36 yards. At his average that would have been 2 more catches. So if one team doesn’t pass as much as another and spreads the ball around more than they are less likely to have a “true” #1 WR. Berrian averaged over 20 yards a catch, had 7 tds’ on 48 receptions, (1 per 6.8 catches, as opposed to Jennings 1 per 8.9 and Drivers 1 per 14.8 ) and was 36 yards short of 1,000 yards. But in your mind he can’t be a number one with those stats. But it’s ok that he’s not a number one. He doesn’t need to catch 80 passes a year, he needs to catch about 65 at most. I would rather him keep up his yards per catch and td’s per catch then get 80 catches and 1200 yards, as well as his 70.8% first down percentage. Out of the top 15 WR’s last year only 4 had more TD’s then Berrian and 3 had the same number. And for what it’s worth, the last 3 years Berrian has more TD’s than Driver.

Now that Sidney Rice has recovered from his knee injury he should be able to put up some good numbers. He is not real fast but has good hands, good height and will go get the ball.

And as far as Shiancoe and Lee.
Shiancoe: 42 rec. 596 yards 14.2 yard per catch and 7 Tds.
Lee: 39 rec. 303 yards 7.8 yards per catch and 5 Tds.

I think he could start on most teams right now. With a 13 yard per catch average over the last two years I would say he is doing just fine.

One more thing. The west coast offense is all about slants and screen passes. Not about the deep ball.

 

[robdog]

Our receivers are awesome. I hope our running game can step it up this year and match the awesomeness of our passing game.

 

[dansz15]

Our receivers are awesome. I hope our running game can step it up this year and match the awesomeness of our passing game.

I'm not sold on Grant being the answer. He can probably be effective but in a one-two type role with Jackson. I give Grant one more chance after playing camp and being healthy, but with the effectiveness of the passing game he should be doing ok. He may of piled up yardage but 3.9 a carry is ugly w/ that number of carries.

Hopefully he turns it around. If not, I am a fan of Jackson. He has worked hard to solidify his role. I really do think he should get 30% of the carries.

 

[ThinkICare]

I agree, Ryan Grant needs to live up to his contract. He really did lag last year. It seemed he just didn't have the vision of reading the correct blocks. He usually ran for 2 or 3 yards every time he ran. Is it so much to ask for a 4.5 or up avg?

 

[PackersRS]

Unless the OL improves drastically (which I don't think it will), I don't expect Grant to increase his Ypr avg, not on a regular basis. What I do expect to see more from him, now that he's healthy, and that he's practicing early and often, is an increase on his big plays. Which ultimately will increase his avg. But you know what I mean...

 

[cyoung]

I think DD is still a threat and we shouldn't lose faith in him, the way Jennings is playing he is looking to be one of the top receivers in the NFL. James Jones now that he healthy can hopefully put up some numbers, and maybe Jordy Nelson can show us the hands he had in college.

 

[ThinkICare]

Yeah, PackersRS I know what you mean. That was one thing that surprised me about Grant. The fact that he barely had any big running plays. Hopefully, he will do better this year.