Preseason game 3

[Ogsponge]

I think Hundley's play was impressive but no way will a healthy Tolzien be pulled for him in the regular season. With Tolzien at QB the entire playbook is available, including the no-huddle. That's not the case with Hundley. BTW, that TD pass to Janis shows someone's capabilities, but not Hundley's: That was Blanchard.

There was one rather nice throw that Hundley dropped right in Janis' hands between two defenders up the side line. I thought that was rather impressive.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Regarding WRs 3-5, Dougherty makes the argument the Packers should stay in house. He notes Jones' ypc stat as evidence he wouldn't be the answer. The counter argument may be how much difference the QB makes but I have spent no time evaluating Jones' 2014 season. And he notes neither Jones nor Boykin may be available. .

Nor have I studied Jones' situation in Oakland all that closely, but there's one stat that might be telling:

Carr was dead last in yards per attempt, 33rd. out of 33 QBs with enough tosses to qualify for official stats.

And it's not like he was throwing a Tebow-like sub-50% to get to that extraordinarily low 5.46 yds. per attempt. He did manage to complete 58% of his passes. He wasn't even close to the 32nd. ranked QB in yards per attempt, the thrilling Blake Bortles at 6.12 yds. on a barely better 59% completion rate. In fact, you have to go back to 2011 to find a QB with lower yds. per attempt than Carr last season, that being the equally thrilling Blain Gabbert at 5.36 yds. And Gabbert had the "excuse" of completing only 51% of his passes.

In short, Carr completed a slightly below average percentage of his passes, which is neither here nor there for the receiver's yards per catch. But when he did complete passes, they were by-and-large for short distances. Oakland did have a couple of guys with low-to-mid teen yards per catch, but none had enough targets to qualify as featured players.

In short, Jones would appear to have been the featured possession receiver in a ball control, game management passing game. I would not conclude that was his fault.[/QUOTE]

BTW, the one thing I really don't understand is why White's 40 time doesn't seem to translate onto the field at all.

I think it does translate to the field, but not in the way one would ordinarily expect.

Running a sprint, a guy can be extra quick out of the blocks, and still post a good time even if he lacks the 5th. gear. That appears to be White. Other guys have long speed, usually the tall, long striding guys like Nelson and Janis (or Billy Schroeder ). Considering Nelson, he ran a 4.51 at the Combine, but we've never see him getting caught from behind on long balls...he has the 5th. gear.

Looking at White, he's not exactly slow on go routes, he just doesn't separate from the corner. He looks like a 4.50 - 4.55 guy on those routes. He has early speed, but that has been neutralized by press coverage at times, or he chops his steps coming off the line against press, which was evident in prior games but not in the Philly game.

Or consider how Gunther keeps up with faster players...he rides them inside down the field, making enough contact to keep them off stride just enough to keep them from kicking to high gear. It's easier for CBs to stay in contact with White because, frankly, he's not a physical guy.

Where you see White's speed is when he gets off the line clean and breaks into a short route. The guy is quick...5/100 faster than Janis over 20 yards looks about right...that's about a 1/2 step which is a lot running short routes in the NFL.

This is why I think White is a better fit out of the slot...and he was worked there quite a bit in this last game.

Regarding the STs, McCarthy probably isn't regretting promoting Zook to STC rather than hiring one of the (two I believe) established STCs available. But even at this early date, I am.

Given Zook's "consulting" role last season, one would think he bears some responsibility for last season's ST mess, which makes the choice somewhat questionable. While you are probably right that McCarthy is not regretting his decision at this early juncture (he's a deliberate guy...I'm of the belief that one's strengths are one's weaknesses in a zen kind of way ) , he was not shy about giving Zook an earful on the sidelines. McCarthy appeared particularly animated over one particular penalty.

However, the ST looked decent in the first 2 games, there are a lot of bubble guys shuttling in and out, and despite the mess in the Philly game, the biggest problem last season, blocking on kicks, hasn't looked to be a problem this preseason. I'm willing to reserve judgement until the "starting" ST groups are established. Unlike the first half defense against Philly, it's hard to say that all of the guys on any one of those plays are pegged as the "starters".

If nothing else, the punt return game will look a lot better once Hyde is back there. You can bet he won't whiff on a punt catch (Janis, week 2) or call a fair catch with 10 free yards right in front of him (Janis, week 3).

Masthay has issues. How much control Zook has over that is a question. And then there's the risk in switching holders for a kicker who's stroke is delicate, considering his on-again, off-again seasons. Crosby looks to be in on-again mode right now...it's a big risk messing with that.

 

[HardRightEdge]

[QUOTE="TJV, post: 620724, member: 4300"BTW, that TD pass to Janis shows someone's capabilities, but not Hundley's: That was Blanchard.[/QUOTE]
You're right. See...Hundley needs work on his deep balls, as I said.

And I concede that Tolzien is the first off the bench, as I said. I'd give him 2 games to prove he can move the ball with a diminished surrounding talent. We can debate this forever until such time Rodgers goes down, which we all hope is "never", but I stand by my observations that Tolzien is a system, by-the-numbers QB. Hundley is already showing he can make things happen when the play breaks down...which happens more often than we'd like, even with Rodgers at QB.

I don't think Tolzien would have fared as well as Hundley in the Philly game behind that patchwork line.

 

[TJV]

Good stuff on Carr and the OAK offense, Jones' time at OAK looks like an outlier. His lowest regular season ypc in Green Bay was 12.3 and 6 of his seven seasons were better than 13.5. So far this preseason with 11 catches (and yes, just preseason) he’s averaging 13.5. There now that we’ve (mostly you) posted this much about him he’s sure to spend this season with the Giants.

Regarding White, if he’s faster than Janis over 20 yards I expect him to get some separation over that distance without breaking the route off. I hope it doesn’t matter much as I see him at #5 and don’t expect him to be counted on much this season except for more injuries.

Certainly Zook’s job is tough in preseason. I’m hoping for the best but I still preferred hiring someone who had already established himself as a solid STC.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Regarding White, if he’s faster than Janis over 20 yards I expect him to get some separation over that distance without breaking the route off. I hope it doesn’t matter much as I see him at #5 and don’t expect him to be counted on much this season except for more injuries.

Just to be clear...I don't see the White issue as "breaking the route off", as in adjusting the route. It's a matter of getting off the line clean. You might have noticed he had healthy separation on several of those short route catches against Philly...that was quickness at work. I see White as quick more than fast, while his lack of physicality presents issues against certain CBs and certain coverages.

As for the matter of him being the #5 and of limited use, I'd call that into question on several counts.

Before the Nelson injury, you may recall my response to posts that the #4 receiver was not that important. I observed that expecting 48 out of 48 starts from the top 3 was unrealistic...I said we can expect several lost starts at some point in the year. With Nelson down, 16 lost starts are on the books already, and the same general assumption applies...the current #4, be it White or Janis, can be expected to get several starts at some point during the season, maybe starting in week 1 pending the Cobb prognosis.

Janis still looks like a one-trick pony, stretch-the-field guy. His hands are iffy, and probably always will be. The Packer QBs don't throw the ball to him until after he makes his break...that tells me they don't trust his route running. James Jones once zigged when Rodgers zagged and sat on the bench for 2 or 3 games. For whatever plusses or minuses a receiver might offer, running good routes and having decent hands takes precedence. White leads Janis in those regards.

And if nothing else, the Packers run a fair amount of 4-wide...the #4 is going to get some snaps.

And it's not as though Montgomery is a proven article. I could actually see some rotation at #3.

You may have noted my comment that the Packers should try to sign Reggie Wayne, not to stick it to the Pats as one poster put it, but instead because the Packers could use him. I'm not profiling White as some kind of answer to a difficult problem; I'm assessing him as possibly the best down-in-down-out #4 on the current roster.

James Jones would be preferable to the alternatives currently on the roster, probably ending up as the #3 outside to Cobb's normal slot position; Montgomery looks like a slot player who probably is not sufficiently acquainted with the full route tree to play outside. Realistically, he's Cobb's backup not an outside guy at this juncture, even if he is the Packers favorite toy at the moment.

 

[Grave]

The first string defense was total garbage in this game. Special teams was one penalty after another and not any better than the ST Slocum was coaching. Really a disappointment. MM and the Packers were so worried about injuries that they played soft. This team definitely needs an attitude change.

This is the Capers D. The fat guys get pushed around, the Lbs don't tackle or cover, and the DBs have no clue. They are pathetic. But Capers told us all a few years ago, this is not a stop-em D. Truest words he's spoken.

Can Rodgers make up for this? Not if we're playing the Iggles. If Kelly had played his 1st stringers for the game they would have scored 80.

MM needs to act. All we need is an average D and Special Teams and we're 16-0.

 

[Grave]

Special Teams had 10 on the field for 2 kicks and 12 for another.

7 penalties.

Lane discipline is absent.

Causing MM frowns.

How hard is this stuff?

 

[Grave]

Just another scrimmage for the starters, who don't need it. It's important for those hoping for a roster spot.

Preseason games and their regular season ticket prices are the biggest financial fraud in professional sports.

Yes. We are deep into the National Fascist League.

And much like the 1930s German populace, the people are fooled into loving it.

 

[TJV]

HRE, 20 and 40 times measure fast, not quick. I don't see that speed reflected on the field. It's not the end-all be-all of receiving but for a fast guy his ypc look more like a Raiders' WR.

Yes. We are deep into the National Fascist League. And much like the 1930s German populace, the people are fooled into loving it.

If you really believe this nonsense, why in world would you be a fan of that?

 

[Half Empty]

Yes. We are deep into the National Fascist League.

And much like the 1930s German populace, the people are fooled into loving it.

The initials don't work, but it's really the National Capitalist League. The commissioner/owners don't force the players to compete, nor the fans to watch. The athletes could get a real job without fear of retaliation, and the fans could stay home. They don't.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I hope I am wrong here, but I'm wagering that either Zook or Capers (or both) are going to have their feet over the fire most of the season. I'm not hitting the panic button on special teams or defense, but WOW, that was pathetic on Saturday. I half expected to wake up to the News that Zook was fired. Again, preseason, cutting him some slack until the Roster is at 53 and he knows who is playing week to week, but come on man!

 

[TJV]

Here’s a quote from Baranczyk and Dougherty’s article yesterday:

The Packers also had three punt returns in which they had the wrong number of players on the field. On the first, in the middle of the second quarter, they were penalized for 12 men on the field. On the re-punt, the Packers then had only 10 players on the field. And on the Eagles’ first punt of the second half, the Packers also had only 10 players on the field. No doubt the logistics are tough in the preseason with 90-men rosters and the coaching staff wanting a look at as many players as possible. But three plays with the wrong number of players is astounding.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...zyk/2015/08/30/packers-defense-show/71438702/

In related news McCarthy has hired a special assistant, Sally Mae Sunshine a local kindergarten teacher. She’ll be in charge of teaching all the special teamers, including Zook and Jason Simmons to count to eleven.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Y

I never get jacked up about preseason results; it's all about evaluation and seeing what the young guys have .
Reading various sites today and they're gushing over how great Sam Bradford is, what a genius Chip Kelly is, and they might as well give the Lombardi to Philly now and be done with it. No sale here.
I do think there are signs of trouble, though, and not based on one preseason game.
- Nelson is a huge loss; not just him as a player- he's one of the best WR's in the game- but how his loss affects the offense as a whole. You have Cobb, Adams, and a bunch of questions marks.
You don't replace Nelson, you replace his production. Who's gonna do that, and fill the role of outside deep threat? Cobb is an undersized slot guy. Adams is still fairly raw. I've read on several sites quotes from coaches and personnel guys who think Janis is just a straight line guy. Montgomery is a rookie; we don't even know what his role will be. The rest are total mysteries, and for me, uninspiring.
-As fans, we often overestimate the talent on our favorite teams. I don't believe the defense is as horrible as it looked last night. I also don't believe they're very good, either. Outside of Matthews- when he plays- and Peppers, there isn't a lot of difference makers or top talent. The secondary is very promising, but right now they're pretty raw. The dline has too many 'just a guy' types. ILB has too many journeymen/career backup caliber players. They won't have to be great, but they'll need to be at least good , especially with the probable downgrade to the teams strength, the passing game.
-Looks like the injury bug is remembering how much it liked the taste of Packer meat. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to get flashbacks to 2013.

Yeah I think PS is most important to the guys trying to make the team and the coaches looking at them. I's hard for a fan to divine the importance, if any, of how good the team will be come the start of the season based on PS results.

And I was wondering and would like some views on this - do the first team guys, when they play, treat thesse games as "pro-bowl" like, meaning the effort is maybe 50% of a regular season game? Obviously this wouldn't be true of Jordy - his play was at regular game speed and regular game efforrt. The great ones usually only know how to play one way. With comments that PS games are meaningless for the starters, wouldn't most of them be better off playing with a lot less drive? And the offense always has a slight advantage in that it knows for sure what the play is. The defense has to read it and adjust if it's another call. Why bother when the added effort could result in injury? So I can almost see this theory, if you want to call it that, applying more to the D.

Anyway I'm no more concerned for this D than I have been for any other version. Some exceptions - 1) the play of Casey Hayward. He plays as if he's a lock for that starting CB across from Shields. I'm not so sure. 2) At a position that one would think would benefit from the competition, ILB, no one seems to be stepping up (contrast with the competition at DB, where Rollins and Gunter are playing well, and I think Randall but haven't really watched him that closely.)

I think the loss of Nelson will be best compensated by improved play from the D and STs'. But I don't see much to suggest that will be the case.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And I was wondering and would like some views on this - do the first team guys, when they play, treat thesse games as "pro-bowl" like, meaning the effort is maybe 50% of a regular season game? Why bother when the added effort could result in injury? So I can almost see this theory, if you want to call it that, applying more to the D.

Just my observations, but I would guess this varies widely from player to player and preseason game to preseason game. On Saturday it was obvious that the Eagles first teamers (especially on offense) were treating this as a "full effort" game. Our defense, not so much. This mentality may have been coached, due to lack of talent or due to Jordy's injury and a few starters not starting and the lackluster frame of mind that circumstance created. I am hoping the latter and it kind of explains what looked like a very pathetic first team defense.

 

[PFanCan]

Here’s a quote from Baranczyk and Dougherty’s article yesterday:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...zyk/2015/08/30/packers-defense-show/71438702/

In related news McCarthy has hired a special assistant, Sally Mae Sunshine a local kindergarten teacher. She’ll be in charge of teaching all the special teamers, including Zook and Jason Simmons to count to eleven.

But Zook only has 10 fingers. Sally Mae has her work cut out for her.

 

[AmishMafia]

my observations:

Hundley played well, but he left a lot on the field. 1/2 of his plays there were WRs wide open for big gains that he did not throw to. Rodgers would have carved them up - if they would have played him the same.

Zook. WTF?!?! How do you replace Slocum and get worse? Why not gather kick off return and coverage units around you just prior and count helmets?

 

[JK64]

my observations:

Why not gather kick off return and coverage units around you just prior and count helmets?

That seems like a simple solution to the problem. I'm really worried about Zook the kook.

 

[PFanCan]

... Why not gather kick off return and coverage units around you just prior and count helmets?

Again... 10 fingers... 11 helmets...