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Predicting the '08 draft [merged with other draft threads]

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Zombieslayer, Dec 27, 2007.

  1. KGB94SACKEM

    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft


    In all honesty, I think you are making things up as you go. I've been around football for over 30 years and what you are saying just doesn't exist.

    We don't blitz much so that is harder for the DT's which causes more injuries? Ummmmm OK. So if the LB's were to blitz the DT's could just take a break, eat a sandwich, or watch some TV.

    A DT plugs the middle trying to stuff the run or pursuing the QB. The exception would be on a blitz the DT's could occupy the Lineman to keep them off the Backers. That's pretty much what every 300LB DT that has ever played football is asked to do.

    No offense but it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. A scheme that gets your own players hurt? Our DT's don't do anything different scheme wise than any other team in the NFL.
     
  2. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    I'm definitely not the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to this and you make a good point, but they actually do do more in this scheme than many other teams in the NFL. I can't recall if I saw this on TV or somewhere online, I'll look for the article, but I recall a non-Packers scout or coach or someone saying we do alot more stunts than other teams.

    Not exactly begging for an injury with an extra stunt or two, but the argument could be made.
     
  3. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    :panting:



    OK, I had to go to great lengths for this, it was on ESPN insider's free preview earlier, then they removed it. So, I had to sign up for it, put in my card info, blah, blah, blah. So since I had to pay $$ for it, I aint linkin to the page. But here's the quote:

    That's all. :thumbsup:
     
  4. KGB94SACKEM

    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft


    Thats correct but how does that INCREASE INJURY and What does that have to do with the LB's blitzing? Alot of teams use stunts. Stunts and twists are very common and done by every team in the league. It's not exactly dangerous. Because we do it 7 times a game instead of 3 we are more injury prone? I just don't get it. Thats a normal DT's move.
     
  5. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    Well, take it how you will, it's just an interesting thought to me. I found it odd that our DT's were seemingly the only guys getting put on IR besides Wynn, and when Bert said it happened in Miami, it kinda makes sense.

    Granted, it's a part of that positions reportoire of moves, but they do it more than 7 times to 3. I think it's more like every play or every other play that they're doing it. That's completely my assumption, but when Scouts Inc. lists it as a part of the scheme, I assume it's pretty frequently used element.

    Like I said, I don't know alot about the DT position. Maybe I'm clutching at straws. Just kinda interested in all of this and whether or not constant spin moves, stunts, and pirouettes would put extra stress on a man of that size's body or not. :shrug:
     
  6. KGB94SACKEM

    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    Oh I'm not by any means trying to act like a know-it-all here, I'm just stating that DT's jobs are probably the simplest out of all positions. It's a pretty straight forward approach. I've never heard of a scheme for DT's that is so outlandishly different then what every other team employs. Perhaps we do it more than other teams but how smart is it if thats getting your players hurt? It's part of being a DT not a blanket excuse for injuries. Stunts and twists are very common. It's almost like playing bump and run on the corner. It is aggressive but that's part of the position.
     
  7. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    Oh, I wasn't trying to call you a know it all, so no worries. Just being honest that out of all the postions, I probably know the least about the technique used at that one.

    Just something that seemed interesting, and I do wonder if we see a bunch of DT's go down next season as well, if they'll look into what we're demanding of that position..
     
  8. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    KGB94SACKEM, what you said definitely seemed logical.

    For what it's worth, Greg Bedard, who covers the Packers for the JS, also covered the Dolphins during Bates tenure as DC. Bedard has written many times how this scheme specifically takes a toll on the D-Line over the course of a 16 game season, and Bedard has mentioned how Ted keeping 10 D-linemen was a very smart move.

    Bedard has said how the D-line of the Dolphins under Jim Bates would statistically regress at the end of the regular season, allowing more rushing yards than what they had before and not getting the same amount of pressure.

    So that is someone who has experience with this scheme giving his take. But what you posted seem logical too.

    I'm sorta confused now. :-?
     
  9. Bertram

    Bertram Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    Well I think this says it all about your knowledge about the position.

    Also you say we don't run a very different scheme than other teams, I can only quote our defensive coordinator Sanders:

    There is a lot of technique involved at the DT position and it's not only strength that makes it hard for a rookie DT to make a splash.

    The Packers run a hybrid two-gap scheme which requires a lot from our DTs, they are called upon to read multiple gaps. Our ends read one gap and our DTs read two gaps, while our LBs are expected to take care of the runningback. In this scheme we need big stout linesmen that can cover multiple gaps, like Harrell (I for one can't understand why some reporters call him a three-technique tackle, which is a 1-gap player whos job is to run through his gap and disrupt the offense in the backfield).

    From experience in Miami, this scheme is hard on its DTs and they will pick up injuries as the season wears and tears. So it's important to have depth, it was probably no coincidence that we picked a DT with our #1 pick.

    The beauty of this scheme is that if you can clog up the middle and pressure the QB on passing downs, it is very hard to figure out and stop for opposing teams because it doesn't consist of different blitzing schemes which opponents usually figure out after a while.

    Sanders learned this scheme from Bates, who had success with it in Miami, Bates learned it while coaching in Dallas. Dallas won 3 Superbowls with this scheme.
     
  10. Bertram

    Bertram Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    Also to my knowledge, there are only two teams running this hybrid two-gap scheme in the NFL as of today, the Packers under Sanders and the Broncos under Bates.
     
  11. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    Very nice explanation, Betram. I appreciate it.

    KGB still makes a good point though that maybe it's a bad thing to run a scheme that causes us to lose good players. Something to probably think about in the offseason, I guess.

    Denver was running it, but scrapped it when they realized their DT's aren't a fit for the scheme. I tried mentioning this on the local radio show back in Sept or Oct, but the host just deflected it and just tried to make an argument with me.
     
  12. Bertram

    Bertram Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    If your DTs are fit for the scheme, you gain more than you lose, and I think that is the case in Green Bay.
     
  13. KGB94SACKEM

    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft


    With all due respect I have been around the game my whole life. I can tell you everything you want to know about techniques, Shades, Gaps, etc. The problem I have with your theory is I don't see how reading 2 gaps causes more injuries or puts anymore physical stress on a player. I understand what kind of system we run but it's not anymore physically demanding then any other system. Mentally perhaps but you get your read and react physically. C'mon now you know that DT isn't rocket science compared to the skill positions. You don't even have to be that darn athletic. You have very few options compared to DE,LB's, CB's, etc.


    In fact it similar to the old NT position. In a base with a NT he was often required to fill half of each A gap with the Mike responsible for the other half of each. A little harder but not more physically demanding.
     
  14. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    In defense of KGB here, I understand what KGB is getting at. Even in our D where our DT position is more complex than most other DT positions, comparatively, it's still not a position that requires a higher Wonderlic score. The positions that still require higher Wonderlic scores are generally OT, QB, C, and G, and on some teams, MLB and/or S. Sure, the DT can't be a retard for the Packers, but I think you can train the average Joe off the street (assuming they have the athletic ability) to be a DT in our D.
     
  15. dhpackr

    dhpackr Cheesehead

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  16. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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  17. dhpackr

    dhpackr Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    oh he is good, in fact he also plays offense, the question is will he enter the draft.
     
  18. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    That sucks if he doesn't, but we should look at him in '09 then. Having too many CBs is a problem I wouldn't mind having.
     
  19. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    I've never seen really any of these guys, so I gotta go by scouting reports.

    I like what I've heard about Talib, and here are a few other CBs who's stock could shoot up when the combine and workouts roll around..

    Mike Jenkins, USF ( 6'0", 200, 4.49 ) - He'll probably be gone before we pick

    Trae Williams, USF( 5'10", 185, 4.45 ) - He's a junior, so he may not declare. From what I've heard, he's got the higher ceiling of the two South Florida guys, though. Both excel at man coverage, but Trae has better ball skills.

    Terrell Thomas, USC ( 6'1", 200, 4.47 ) - I know he got hurt earlier this season again, but can anyone tell me if he finished the season? Also likes to play man-to-man, and is expected to be a player who can be left on an island, but he has a very bad history of injuries, so durability is a huge ??? He is evidently a good character guy, though. Uncommon at this position.

    Leodis McKelvin, Troy State ( 5'10", 186, 4.44 ) - Right now I see him as this years Darrelle Revis. Not rated really high at this point in the year, but every scouting report raves about him, he has awesome ball skills and is a punt return beast. At this point I wouldn't be surprised to see him go before any other corner.

    Antoine Cason, Arizona ( 6'0", 190, 4.55 ) - dh and others have already put his name out there, so I won't say too much here. Does well left on an island, but he lacks upper body strength (which I assume he could add during offseason workouts) and scouts say he'll struggle pressing WRs at the pro level.

    Darnell Terrell, Mizzou ( 6'2", 198, 4.44 ) - Big kid with supposedly sick speed. Would require more development, but you know TT and his "reach" picks. Right now projected 2nd day, which means he'd probably go late 3rd round if our staff liked him. :D
     
  20. Mortfini

    Mortfini Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    Pack im sure u saw that thing about our d-line on NFL playbook
     
  21. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    Actually no, but I wish I had! Love that show.
     
  22. starpass

    starpass Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    I like RUCKER out of MIZZOU for TE...I saw saw mock drafts and they had him going from late first to the 50th pick...Actually...next year...we should go after Chase Coffman...the son of Paul Coffman for TE...Both of these TE had monster years at MIZZOU...Speaking of MIZZOU...Tony Temple...the running back set a cotton bowl record of 281 yds...and it was the second highest rushing total of all time for ALL bowls...he is somewhat smallish..but...fast and can find holes...he runs more like Jackson that Grant though...a good 3rd-5th round pick...value pick...
     
  23. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    Thanks for the good thread, zombie. I mostly agree with your original assessment. The best case scenario would be for a good CB or TE to fall to the Packers in the first round. Beyond that, I'm thinking LB, G, or DE.

    LB because we have no depth there and Poppinga is suspect.

    G because we have a bunch of guys who have been here for two years and none of them stand out. This is a position where players often take a few years to develop (remember Wahle and Rivera), so there is hope that our current guys can improve, but Thompson might want to hedge his bets.

    DE because KGB is getting older, and once he loses a bit of his quickness, he will be done. Meanwhile, Montgomery has not impressed me at all. And you can never have too many pass rushers.

    Thompson's approach of favoring quality over need continues to make sense with this team because, for one thing, it's worked so far, but also, I think TE is the only position that is really in dire need of a good player immediately. We should learn more about the Packers' draft needs from the playoffs, as that is where weaknesses really get exploited.
     
  24. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Re: Predicting the '08 draft

    I hadn't taken KGB's age into account. That's something I missed.
     
  25. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Predicting the '08 draft

    bump for underclassmen's deadline passing.
     

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