Poll on Rodger's Pocket Presence

[neilfii]

Acme Packing is hosting a poll on Rodger's pocket presence after a Don Pompei article about Ryan Mallet's seeming lack of pocket presence. So, how would you rate Rodger's pocket presence?

Rating Aaron Rodgers: Pocket Presence - Acme Packing Company

 

[ivo610]

2nd tier. If that makes any sense.

 

[PackersRS]

I've commented several times on that thread.

I'm discussing with a guy about Rodgers' pocket presence. Apparently he doesn't think it's good enough simply because "he takes too many sacks".

Am I the only one that doesn't think it's that simple? That Aaron more than showed great pocket presence against the Giants, the Falcons, and the Steelers????

 

[ivo610]

I've commented several times on that thread.

I'm discussing with a guy about Rodgers' pocket presence. Apparently he doesn't think it's good enough simply because "he takes too many sacks".

Am I the only one that doesn't think it's that simple? That Aaron more than showed great pocket presence against the Giants, the Falcons, and the Steelers????

he isnt the best but he is better than average. Its not easy for us as a fanbase to judge this based on watching the previous QB for so many years avoid sacks like few ever do.

Manning is phenomenal as well in the pocket. For someone who has the speed of a lawn gnome he rarely takes a sack.

 

[GreenBayGal]

I think Aaron makes his pockets look pretty nice. :wink2:

 

[GBPack2010]

The fact that there's an option "Can use improvement" should apply to all QB not ranked #1 in terms of pocket presence. He's one of the best but clearly not the best.

 

[Ausnadian]

He is definitely more comfortable in the pocket this last season than the one before when he was sacked about a bazillion times, and because his pocket has improved, his presence has been more noticeable. I have said before and I will say again, if our OL can continually give Rodgers 4 seconds to throw, we will be unstoppable on offense. In that case he will be spectacular in the pocket.
One addition , if any QB in the NFL is given 4 seconds consistanly to throw, he should be deadly.

 

[PackersRS]

he isnt the best but he is better than average. Its not easy for us as a fanbase to judge this based on watching the previous QB for so many years avoid sacks like few ever do.

Manning is phenomenal as well in the pocket. For someone who has the speed of a lawn gnome he rarely takes a sack.

I challenge anyone to watch the Giants, the Falcons and the Steelers game and not say Rodgers is elite at avoiding sacks.

 

[Bogart]

I think the results speak for themselves.

 

[ivo610]

I challenge anyone to watch the Giants, the Falcons and the Steelers game and not say Rodgers is elite at avoiding sacks.

unfortunately you cant cherry pick games to say if a player is elite in sensing pressure coming in the pocket. Its something you judge season to season. Just like I wouldnt use 2009s Bengals, Vikings, or Tampa Bays games to judge his pocket presence.

In 2010 Chad Henne, Matt Hasselbeck, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer, Matt Cassell, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning, and Eli Manning all took less sacks than Rodgers. so to say he is "elite" in terms of avoiding sacks is a reach at best.

 

[PackersRS]

unfortunately you cant cherry pick games to say if a player is elite in sensing pressure coming in the pocket. Its something you judge season to season. Just like I wouldnt use 2009s Bengals, Vikings, or Tampa Bays games to judge his pocket presence.

In 2010 Chad Henne, Matt Hasselbeck, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer, Matt Cassell, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning, and Eli Manning all took less sacks than Rodgers. so to say he is "elite" in terms of avoiding sacks is a reach at best.

Again, I had this same discussion at Acmepackingcompany.com, it's borderline assinine to correlate sack totals with pocket presence.

To do that, you have to completely disregard the quality of OL, the conditions in which every sack was made, who was responsible for every sack, if taking the sack was the best solution in that moment or not.

Favre took way less sacks than Rodgers, but he also threw way more picks.

Tom Coughling was quoted saying that Eli Manning was a big reason why they didn't take many sacks, but that he was wrong in doing so, because that was also the big reason why his INT totals soared.

It's idiotic to take number of sacks and determinate if the QB has good pocket presence or not. What Aaron Rodgers did against Atlanta, you can't do that if you are not ELITE at pocket presence and avoiding sacks.

And this isn't evaluating Rodgers' career or year regarding his pocket presence. It's evaluating it NOW. The last 7 or so games, he was elite. NOW, he's elite. It's not cherrypicking, I'm not just selecting a few games, it's a STRETCH of games, the most recent stretch of games, against the best pass rushing teams in the NFL.

 

[LAG]

Rodgers was 'Houdini' last season, much improved from his 2008 and 2009 seasons.

 

[Wood Chipper]

well of course vick has great pocket presence. he has the speed of a running back.

 

[PackersRS]

Rodgers was 'Houdini' last season, much improved from his 2008 and 2009 seasons.

Yes, if you take Rodgers' 08 and 09 season, though, again, most of the blame for the sacks are on the OL, he wasn't good at sensing the rush and avoiding it before it got there.

I remember the Vikings games where Allen used to eat him alive, and worse, cause him to fumble the ball quite often.

But, as I said, we're talking about the most recent Rodgers. The one that stormed through the playoffs and won the SB by playing a flawless game.

That Rodgers is elite at avoiding the rush.

 

[ivo610]

Again, I had this same discussion at Acmepackingcompany.com, it's borderline assinine to correlate sack totals with pocket presence.

To do that, you have to completely disregard the quality of OL, the conditions in which every sack was made, who was responsible for every sack, if taking the sack was the best solution in that moment or not.

Favre took way less sacks than Rodgers, but he also threw way more picks.

Tom Coughling was quoted saying that Eli Manning was a big reason why they didn't take many sacks, but that he was wrong in doing so, because that was also the big reason why his INT totals soared.

It's idiotic to take number of sacks and determinate if the QB has good pocket presence or not. What Aaron Rodgers did against Atlanta, you can't do that if you are not ELITE at pocket presence and avoiding sacks.

And this isn't evaluating Rodgers' career or year regarding his pocket presence. It's evaluating it NOW. The last 7 or so games, he was elite. NOW, he's elite. It's not cherrypicking, I'm not just selecting a few games, it's a STRETCH of games, the most recent stretch of games, against the best pass rushing teams in the NFL.

I believe your the one who brought up sacks in this thread and said he was elite at avoiding them. Clearly he isnt if he ranks in the middle of the field.

 

[PackersRS]

well of course vick has great pocket presence. he has the speed of a running back.

Actually, I disagree.

Vick is elite at avoiding pass rushers. The best in the league BY FAR. But he has TERRIBLE sense of the rush and feel of the blitz. Look no further than the first play of the Wildcard game, where Bishop shoots untouched for an easy sack.

Rodgers is a combination of both. While he's not elite at sensing the rush and delivering the ball quickly, he's great at that. But what separates him is that, when he doesn't, he's able to simply shake defenders, which QBs like Manning and Brady can't.

He has both ways of avoiding the rush. He's top 10 at sensing the rusher and getting rid of the ball quickly, but he's top 3 at shaking defenders (Vick and Roethlisberger). And THAT, IMHO, makes him elite at that atribute.

 

[PackersRS]

I believe your the one who brought up sacks in this thread and said he was elite at avoiding them. Clearly he isnt if he ranks in the middle of the field.

If he was to be sacked 600 times and was sacked 30, while Brady was to be sacked 200 times, but was sacked 15, who is better at avoiding sacks?????

As I said, sacks in itself doesn't mean squat. Unless you can count sacks per attempt, and attribute number of sacks on Rodgers based on play by play, while deciding if taking the sack was the right move, if there was nothing else positive he could've done, and do the same with the so-called elite QBs, then those stats will mean something...

 

[ivo610]

If he was to be sacked 600 times and was sacked 30, while Brady was to be sacked 200 times, but was sacked 15, who is better at avoiding sacks?????

As I said, sacks in itself doesn't mean squat. Unless you can count sacks per attempt, and attribute number of sacks on Rodgers based on play by play, while deciding if taking the sack was the right move, if there was nothing else positive he could've done, and do the same with the so-called elite QBs, then those stats will mean something...

You said he was elite at avoiding sacks when he ranks in the middle at taking them. clearly not the best line in the NFL but by far not the worst in terms of QBs that I listed. If your going to make the claim he is elite at avoiding sacks then please state what you use as evidence. Its easy to shoot out fake numbers but Im looking for some real ones.

 

[PackersRS]

You said he was elite at avoiding sacks when he ranks in the middle at taking them. clearly not the best line in the NFL but by far not the worst in terms of QBs that I listed. If your going to make the claim he is elite at avoiding sacks then please state what you use as evidence. Its easy to shoot out fake numbers but Im looking for some real ones.

Real, meaningless ones.

 

[ivo610]

Real, meaningless ones.

ok so you dont have anything to back it up with? your just saying you think in your opinion he is elite? Ok fair enough.

In my opinion for him to be elite he would have to be in the top 3 in the league, which I dont have him. To each their own. I have been happy with the progress he made from 2009 to 2010. If I had to point to the biggest issue with the 2009 it would be the sacks he took, which I would say about 1/2 were him holding the ball to long. Much has been written about his effort to correct this. My hats off to him for his improvement.

 

[PackersRS]

ok so you dont have anything to back it up with? your just saying you think in your opinion he is elite? Ok fair enough.

Oh, I do. Actually, I already did.

If he was to be sacked 600 times and was sacked 30, while Brady was to be sacked 200 times, but was sacked 15, who is better at avoiding sacks?????

As I said, sacks in itself doesn't mean squat. Unless you can count sacks per attempt, and attribute number of sacks on Rodgers based on play by play, while deciding if taking the sack was the right move, if there was nothing else positive he could've done, and do the same with the so-called elite QBs, then those stats will mean something...

Rodgers is a combination of both. While he's not elite at sensing the rush and delivering the ball quickly, he's great at that. But what separates him is that, when he doesn't, he's able to simply shake defenders, which QBs like Manning and Brady can't.

He has both ways of avoiding the rush. He's top 10 at sensing the rusher and getting rid of the ball quickly, but he's top 3 at shaking defenders (Vick and Roethlisberger). And THAT, IMHO, makes him elite at that atribute.

But, as I said, we're talking about the most recent Rodgers. The one that stormed through the playoffs and won the SB by playing a flawless game.

That Rodgers is elite at avoiding the rush.

Again, I had this same discussion at Acmepackingcompany.com, it's borderline assinine to correlate sack totals with pocket presence.

To do that, you have to completely disregard the quality of OL, the conditions in which every sack was made, who was responsible for every sack, if taking the sack was the best solution in that moment or not.

Favre took way less sacks than Rodgers, but he also threw way more picks.

Tom Coughling was quoted saying that Eli Manning was a big reason why they didn't take many sacks, but that he was wrong in doing so, because that was also the big reason why his INT totals soared.

It's idiotic to take number of sacks and determinate if the QB has good pocket presence or not. What Aaron Rodgers did against Atlanta, you can't do that if you are not ELITE at pocket presence and avoiding sacks.

And this isn't evaluating Rodgers' career or year regarding his pocket presence. It's evaluating it NOW. The last 7 or so games, he was elite. NOW, he's elite. It's not cherrypicking, I'm not just selecting a few games, it's a STRETCH of games, the most recent stretch of games, against the best pass rushing teams in the NFL.

Plus this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TiTC5fGez0]YouTube - Aaron Rodgers 2010 - 2011 Highlights[/ame]
This:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZDm0VV1sIU]YouTube - Greenbay Packers - Highlights Wks 16 & 17 ( 2010 Season )[/ame]
This:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYr0SOX1uEU]YouTube - 2011 NFL Playoffs -Green Bay Packers at Atlanta Falcons[/ame]
And this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLbiROT220]YouTube - Packers vs Steelers 2011 Super Bowl 45 Highlights[/ame]

In my opinion for him to be elite he would have to be in the top 3 in the league, which I dont have him. To each their own. I have been happy with the progress he made from 2009 to 2010. If I had to point to the biggest issue with the 2009 it would be the sacks he took, which I would say about 1/2 were him holding the ball to long. Much has been written about his effort to correct this. My hats off to him for his improvement.

If you're gonna go out of highly subjective STATS like attributing 1/2 of sacks for him, that out of your head, and talk about improvement from 2009 to 2010 be my guest.

I'm gonna talk about recent production and film.

Just on the Falcons highlight, Rodgers avoided a number of sacks. Let's count:
1 (0:20 mark)
2 (1:46 mark. He actually avoids 2 sacks, but let's count as 1)
3 (2:05 mark)
4 (2:50 mark)
3:06 he's sacked, but because the receiver is held
5 (5:00 mark)
6 (5:24 mark)
7 (5:37 mark)
8 (6:07 mark)

That's it. He ONLY avoided 8 sacks in that game... Yeah, he's average. Maybe good...

 

[ivo610]

so yeah no real stats or numbers just opinion and some youtube clips. Wondering if this is getting lost in translation...

What do youtube videos do to compare him to the rest of the league? Is Peyton Manning in any videos?

He did take 3 sacks in the SB with BB taking 1, so its not like he went untouched.

 

[PackersRS]

so yeah no real stats or numbers just opinion and some youtube clips. Wondering if this is getting lost in translation...

What do youtube videos do to compare him to the rest of the league? Is Peyton Manning in any videos?

He did take 3 sacks in the SB with BB taking 1, so its not like he went untouched.

Again, I've already said why raw stats are meaningless. Wondering if that is getting lost in the translation, or you simply aren't reading what I post.

So no comment on that? You're just gonna point to sacks? No word on my response to why sacks are irrelevant? You want me to break down every single video for you? Do or do you not agree that what Rodgers did against Atlanta was being elite at avoiding sacks? That avoiding 8 sacks in a single game takes TONS of pocket presence and escapability? 8 sacks, only counted in the highlights, might I add.

 

[ivo610]

You say sacks are irrelevant yet say Rodgers is elite at avoiding sacks?

By saying someone is elite at something your saying he is better than others. Again you have provided nothing to show he is elite at this. I just figured if your going to make a claim you would at least try to make a sensible argument to back it up. Youtube highlights dont really cut it.

Until you show me something to compare other QBs I dont think there is much of a debate.

But I will ask Don Banks Monday night if you like for his opinion on Rodgers ability to avoid sacks in comparison to the rest of the leagues QBs, and his pocket presence.

 

[PackersRS]

You say sacks are irrelevant yet say Rodgers is elite at avoiding sacks?

By saying someone is elite at something your saying he is better than others. Again you have provided nothing to show he is elite at this. I just figured if your going to make a claim you would at least try to make a sensible argument to back it up. Youtube highlights dont really cut it.

Until you show me something to compare other QBs I dont think there is much of a debate.

But I will ask Don Banks Monday night if you like for his opinion on Rodgers ability to avoid sacks in comparison to the rest of the leagues QBs, and his pocket presence.

Well, I thought that when I break down film of a guy breaking 8 sacks I'm kind of showing he's elite at that.

Guess not.

Regarding proof, I say the same. Until you show that other guys breaking as many sacks as Rodgers, I'll figure he's the best at it... Because, so far, you haven't shown anything, and you haven't even commented on my points, just dismissed them left and right...