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Politically Incorrect

Discussion in 'The Atrium' started by FrankRizzo, Aug 9, 2012.

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  1. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    One writer who you consider sick because he reports evidence with which you are uncomfortable, huh? As a good and old Packers fan (that’s not meant as a pejorative as I am too) you must have read Maraniss’ book, right? IMO it’s “the” book on Lombardi. Did you find it poorly referenced, or not heavily footnoted? What other “lies” did you ferret out in the book? How about you doing some research to back up the BS you peddle? For example, check out what Susan Lombardi (Vince’s daughter) has said about this subject and while you’re at it, check out what Vince Jr. says. And keep in mind both have been very honest about Vince’s failures as a father. Find evidence that suggests Harold (AKA Hal) wasn’t gay or that his partner, Richard Nicholls was making up his relationship with Harold (who died in 2011). BTW, Nicholls has also commented upon Harold’s relationship with Vince, but he must be lying because he’s gay, right? Find evidence that George Dickson disputed what Lombardi reportedly said to him. And why do you suppose no players from that era have come forward to dispute how Lombardi treated gay players? There are a lot of closed-minded, bigoted people like yourself still around from that era.
    I did a quick search looking for outlandish claims of the percentage of gays and didn’t find any. That's not to say they don't exist but I certainly didn't find a huge number of such claims. Since you are the proponent of the idea, I’ll leave it to you to support it. I did find a slate.com story on the subject which referenced a Gallup poll detailing the percentage of LGBT by state. http://www.gallup.com/poll/160517/lgbt-percentage-highest-lowest-north-dakota.aspx Gallup finds the national average to be 3.5%. I think it’s fair to say slate.com is “gay friendly”, so I wouldn’t expect them to highlight such a poll if they had problems with it. Or, I’d expect them to attempt to tear it apart. Any claim the percentage is far greater than that just wouldn’t be credible, so the greater the exaggeration the better you should feel about it, right? (BTW, you may want to be careful promoting the sexual tendencies of priests as evidence for your position – and I’m not just talking about perverted or gay clergy.)
    And you’ve posted more than that:

    "Read the polls" and "the polls back that up", huh? The most comprehensive poll on this question I could find was completed recently by The Pew Research Center (be careful with your usual knee-jerk reaction to information with which you disagree – Pew is not a “liberal” think tank). Pew conducted a poll in 39 countries in 80+ languages and then compared that data to their poll of American Muslims. As to your estimates of 90%+ to 100% who you claim support terrorists, I direct you to read the polls: Pew finds that 81% of US Muslims say suicide bombing is never justified and the global median is 72%. So the “huge” majority don’t support the terrorists’ preferred tactic. Pew finds that 86% of American Muslims say suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilian targets is never or rarely justified. Worldwide in addition to the 72% who say never, another 10% say that tactic is rarely justified. Just 1% of U.S. Muslims and a median of 3% of Muslims worldwide say suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets are often justified, while 7% of U.S. Muslims and a global median of 8% of Muslims say such attacks are sometimes justified to defend Islam. Here’s a link to commentary on both the US and worldwide Pew polls: http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec.aspx I’ve provided two polls which dramatically contradict your made up numbers. Now it’s your turn to provide links to the polls you are referencing.

    Don’t get me wrong, if there are about 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide and if 8% are violent, that’s 120 million; if 3% are willing to act out violence, that’s still 45 million. That’s obviously a huge problem. Because of that and because I believe jihadists pose the greatest threat to our country, I’m in favor of such tactics as profiling at airports (as the Israelis do) and surveying communications from and to the U.S. to and from known dangerous areas in the world. IOW, if you’re a U.S. citizen and you regularly communicate with someone in Yemen, you should have zero expectations of privacy. Same thing if you regularly use terms commonly used by terrorists.

    As I wrote in my previous post, you’re not big on evidence and facts. And I don’t take writing such a thing lightly, but we have some examples of that on this site. For example, in something as relatively trivial as a discussion of Packers history, you were unaware that Sherman remained as HC for a season after Thompson was hired as HC. In that thread you posted, “Yeah, I fell into your trap by answering your question.” Here’s that “clever gotcha” question you answered, “How do you think Sherman did as GM?” Like I said that’s trivial but if you are going to post strong opinions about Packers history on a forum dedicated to the Packers, IMO you should at least have a basic grasp of the facts and you don’t. You share that attribute with many Favre supporters but that’s no excuse. Next you pull percentages of Muslims who support terrorists out of your arse. If that is not correct, I will look forward to your citing two or more polls which support your view.


    And of course you reject evidence regarding Vince Lombardi’s life without providing any evidence to back up your objections. That’s not only lazy, it’s ignorant. You accuse others of insulting the memory of Lombardi when it is actually you who is doing so by ignoring the evidence of what he not only believed regarding homosexuality but also how he led his life with regard to gay people. You appear to be happily ignorant on at least a couple of subjects. I’m sure there’s no changing your mind, but you should know by publically advancing and loudly proclaiming your ignorance, you do your “causes” more harm than good.That's not a big deal regarding issues like Sherman, Favre and Thompson but by peddling the BS you do about Muslims, you damage (to the extent anyone reads or hears it) the point of view of those of us who recognize the threat posed by a relatively small number of Muslims by opening up our argument to justified criticism.
     
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  2. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Damn Jack....

    Thats a ton of of whoop
     
  3. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    You're a master of circular logic, Jack - and making unwarranted assumptions based on your belief in what people with an agenda similar to your own put out.

    This thread isn't (wasn't) about Muslims, but if you want to go there, be my guest. You already posted my words, and there they stand, uncontroverted. You faithfully cite a poll that defies all appearance of reality regarding Muslim views. Do you suppose maybe those Muslims answering poll questions might just purposely mislead? No, I don't suppose you would ever consider that.

    I read "Run to Daylight" and Jerry Kramer's book, "Instant Replay", as well as the more recent "Distant Reply". This new thing designed to inflame and push an agenda? Nope, I'll have to confess to avoiding it. Funny, you quote the crap that Vince's children had to say about him, and your own words discredit that by saying they claim he was not a good father. Do you suppose that might have had something to do with what they say about him? I prefer to believe Vince's words - "God, Family, and the Green Bay Packers".

    3.5% of Americans are homosexual huh? hahahaha. That's about 1 in 30. Does that REALLY seem believable to you? If you assume the NFL is representative of society in general (I don't know, is that logical or not?), then there is almost two of them on each team - a big "yeah right" to that hahaha.

    You may well be correct that there was some sick crap in Vince's family. I don't see any need to drag the Great Man through the mud because of that. If you or that damned author or whoever are going to assert any weird approval other than the expected toleration of a brother's foibles, then I'd say the burden of proof is on ya'all.
     
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  4. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    He didnt say that at all



    Should quit while your ahead
     
  5. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Your reply is pathetic, texas.

    • If I’m the master of circular logic, give an example or two. (Do you even know what that means?)

    • YOU were the one that insisted we “read the polls” and that the polls “back that up”. Yet you STILL haven’t cited a single poll. Why is that? Why did you post anything about polls? And talk about “logic”: If you think Muslims en masse would lie in a poll, why pretend you had polls to back up your notion that 90-99% of Muslims are evil? BTW, declaring that more than 1,350,000,000 people are evil because of their religious beliefs is one of the all-time idiotic things every written. And not just on this forum.

    • Your ignorance is on display again as you write Maraniss’ book pushes an agenda while admitting you haven’t read it. BTW, these quotes only surfaced recently, what made you think Maraniss had an agenda when it was published in 1999? And here’s the real kicker: Lombardi’s views on homosexuality comprise a tiny portion of the book.

    • It’s not my words that claim Lombardi wasn’t a good father – it’s his children’s words. Lombardi was the best HC in the history of the NFL but he wasn’t perfect. He was consumed by football and that left little time for his family. You can read and hear his children talk about this directly. BTW the reason I brought up what Lombardi’s children said about him as a father was to point out they weren’t just automatically praising his attitude towards gays and blacks – they are/were willing to talk about his faults, too.

    • 3.5% seems reasonable to me. You think it's less? If so, where is some objective evidence to back up your belief? You seem very comfortable spewing out opinions without supporting them with any evidence or even knowing basic facts. There are over 300,000,000 in this country, are you really so foolish as to depend upon anecdotal evidence to determine what percentage of the entire population is … anything?

    • The proof of how Lombardi treated gay players has already been advanced. If you insist on not believing it, the burden of proof is on YOU to refute it.

    Here is a suggestion. Try something completely different: Present some damn evidence of something! You aren’t too old to try something completely new, are you?
     
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  6. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Maybe it was a gay muslim who wrote the biography ???? Do you really believe Texas, that JUST because Vince Lombardi was the greatest coach the Packers have ever had, he was infallible ?? Why would his children say things about him that wasn`t true, and which you find unacceptable. Bill Curry wrote a book called Ten Men to meet in a huddle, and while he was complimentary about Lombardi, he was as honest as he could be. We all have good and bad points in our makeup, its what makes us who we are. Lombardi was no different, he was a human being, not God.
     
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  7. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    Did I say "1,350,000 Muslims are evil"? - your words, not mine. What I said is: The actual percentage of evildoers among Muslims is small. However, the vast majority - I think I estimated 95-98% are sympathetic to the actual terrorists. That's like saying only a tiny percentage of Green Bay residents actually play for the Packers, but the vast majority of Green Bay residents want the Packers to win. You know what? I'd bet money the percentages in those examples are very similar.BTW, did I "cite the polls"? Or did I say "take a poll"?

    Do YOU know what circular logic is, Jack? Your posts are saturated with examples, both on the Muslim front and the homosexuality front.

    I SAID you cite the words of Vince's children that he wasn't a good father - do you suppose THAT could cause them to say the disgusting things about him that apparently appear in the book? (answering your question also, Bill) I'm not saying they lied or said bad, I'm just asking the question, is it likely, given they claim he was a bad father? And no, of course Vince Lombardi wasn't infallible - I heard he was a damn liberal Democrat hahaha - a big fan of Kennedy. The man, however, is dead - not able to defend himself or his legacy. Some loon comes along 30+ years after the era and writes a damn book accusing him of condoning homosexuality, and you, Jack, call that PROOF? I call it name-dropping of a Great Man - not around to deny the allegations - to advance a SICK agenda of mainstreaming homosexuality

    I don't know who you are, what you are, which way you swing, whatever, Jack, you probably are a good person, but think about it, here you are coming out on side of uh ........ Muslims and homosexuality!!!!! ....... and trying to paint Vince Lombardi as condoning homosexuality!!!! and probably supporting gay marriage? no wait, I guess that wasn't you - it was your sniveling little sycophant, the "super" moderator.

    As I said, you are the one making weird and outlandish claims. That puts the burden of proof on you. I'm merely stating that Reality is PROBABLY just the way it appears - both on the Muslim thing and the homosexuality thing.
     
  8. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    I didn't say you had an issue with it, Bill, but 1 Corinthians - which you quoted in your post on P. 4 - is in the New Testament.
     
  9. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    You said nearly 100 twice??

    Then you challenge Jack by telling him to read the polls, but didn't say what polls to read..That is where you need to supply evidence. So what polls do you mean? So supply that poll please.


    You also stated this

    http://www.packerforum.com/threads/politically-incorrect.38170/page-2#post-489635

    Now you say this


    You did say 99% are evil, about 3 times, now your saying the % of evil is small???

    That my friend is circular logic..
     
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  10. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Approximately 1.5 billion Muslims times 90% = 1,350,000,000. (BTW, you missed three zeroes – we’re talking billions, not millions of people you are ignorantly judging.) .

    If I hadn’t seen it, I wouldn’t believe there would be someone so ill-informed as write such a thing. And of course you have absolutely ZERO evidence to support it.
    Really? You don’t remember what you posted and can’t even scroll up and read the nonsense you wrote? Let me help:
    “READ the polls” and “the POLLS back that up”. Still confused? So we can take your “not remembering” as an admission there are no polls supporting your opinion.What a surprise. :rolleyes:
    Yet again you allege something without backing it up with evidence, facts or examples. Just writing something doesn’t make it so: BACK IT UP.
    Not discriminating against gay people is not disgusting to his children. They view it as I view it: A good thing. That’s why I brought it up – they are willing to admit to Vince’s failures as a father but they are also proud of his not discriminating against blacks or gay people. So unlike you, they are not blindly biased. And here’s something you will probably never understand: If they wanted to hurt Vince’s legacy they would have said he really hated gay people and only appeared to be tolerant. Maraniss was relaying what others observed and heard like a good reporter. That’s the evidence that Vince did not discriminate against gay people or blacks, for that matter. And that enhances his legacy.
    I’m on the side of the truth as revealed by evidence. As I’ve posted the jihadist threat is real but the vast majority of Muslims don’t support terrorism. I cited a comprehensive poll to back that up. You have cited nothing but your ignorant opinion. And your ignorant opinion is counter-productive. I’m not painting Lombardi as anything. I’m citing evidence that he had a gay brother and that he treated gay players well. You have cited nothing but your ignorant opinion.
    Reality is as it appears: The vast majority of Muslims worldwide lead peaceful lives and Lombardi had a gay brother and suffered discrimination himself so he did not discriminate against others based upon race or sexual orientation.

    See if you can understand this: Maraniss presented evidence Vince was tolerant of gay people. You have presented evidence of absolutely nothing. If you disagree with evidence presented, it is up to you to refute it by presenting some evidence. That is how an intelligent conversation/argument proceeds. But yet again you put up a post with not one scintilla of evidence.

    Ignorance is lacking knowledge, stupidity is lack of intelligence. The former is not knowing; not being informed. The later is an inability to process information once you do know it. Your posts reveal both. Your ignorance is apparent because you haven’t presented even one piece of evidence, as I posted previously facts and evidence aren’t your strong suit. And upon receiving evidence I have provided, you have been unable to process or refute any of it. You apparently foolishly believe that you are backing up your opinions by posting the equivalent of ‘because I say so’.You can't remember or take the trouble to review what you actually posted. At this point I'm wondering if English is your first language and I don't mean it as a slam but as an honest question. Unless you respond with some evidence supporting something, I'm done with you on this thread.
     
  11. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    ...and when you're talking about ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS (not Muslims in general), this is an excellent comparison Islamic Extremists have ZERO to do with Islam in the same way that the KKK has ZERO to do with Christianity - except that each group of nut cases bastardized their religious beliefs to justify evil and hatred. Thanks for bringing that comparison up, Buggy ... I was afraid as I read through the posts that nobody would. :tup:
     
  12. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Actually, thank YOU Weeds, I was accused of making comparisons without any foundation by another member. Texas and I hopefully sorted ourselves and agree to disagree, but apart from my rant which was out of order , my whole argument was the fact that Muslims have extremists, but Christians do to, and I firmly believe that.
     
  13. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    You call yourself a "super" moderator? You can't even READ. The words in your own post shoot down everything you say. AS I STATED - a couple of times now, the 90 - 99% or 95-98% or virtually 100%, take your pick are SYMPATHIZERS of the relatively small percentage of actual evildoers. Hell yeah, they are our enemy. WHY, not because I say so, not because the U.S. government says so, but because the God damned Muslims themselves say so. And to that, I - and most good Americans say, BRING IT ON!

    I will give you one miniscule victory. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned "polls", as polls are conducted mainly by the same leftist anti-American media in this country and abroad that demagogues every issue, and hence, are of very questionable reliability. What I actually said, I think, is "take a poll" - of what they call the "Arab/Muslim street". Anyway, every demonstration or whatever of those people make it obvious: THEY HAVE SET THEMSELVES UP AS OUR ENEMIES.

    I thought this thread was about homosexuality, but if you persist in dragging the issue of the Muslim terrorist enemy into it, I will say to that also, BRING IT ON!

    You know what is really funny? What those Muslims say and do about homosexuality/homosexuals. Maybe you'd like to cite some polls on THAT hahahaha.
     
  14. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    I've been watching a good old 1990 movie on Cinemax, "Navy Seals" starring Charlie Sheen and Dennis Haysbert, the Allstate "voice", so I'm really in a BRING IT ON mood to the God damned Muslim terrorist enemy tonight hahahaha. killemallalGsio hahahaha.

    Oh yes, your post hahahaha. Most of what I had to say I put in the reply to your sycophant, Jack, whatshisface, that "super" moderator.

    Whine and Gripe all you want, but you can't hide from the fact that you are trying to defend the indefensible on two fronts - homosexuality and the Muslim terrorist enemy. Quibble all you want about numbers, percentages, polls, WHATEVER, but we all know - or SHOULD that 1. Muslims in HUGE percentages, are OUR ENEMY - because they SAY they are our enemy. Yeah, as one or the other of you two jokers stated, most Muslims just live their lives in peace, surviving from day to day, BUT, their sympathies lie with the God damned terrorists - just as we ALL are not Green Bay Packer players, but we sure do SYMPATHIZE with the fortunate 53 who are. And 2. homosexuality is an abomination if you are Christian and a Bible believer at all, and if you are not, then homosexuality is just plain filthy and sick and disgusting, and only the insidious leftist propaganda known as "political correctness" prevents the huge percentage of good normal Americans from expressing that.

    BTW, you got me hahahahaha. I plead guilty to leaving off those three zeroes, also to not comprehending that your 1.35 billion figure constituted only 90% of the total. BFD!

    Oh yeah, about Vince's poor misguided kids, maybe THEY didn't see it as dissing their father - if in fact they talked about him supporting homosexuality at all, but making the statement about such filth drags the Great Coach's name through the mud just the same, even if unintended.

    And as for this damned author, you whine and rant about assumptions and unproven claims, just because that piece of crap said/wrote it doesn't make it so. I repeat, when one is making such weird outlandish claims as you and the author, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU - to defeat the PRESUMPTION of Normalcy.
     
  15. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    Really I'm just more against people being jerks to one another when their lives have zero impact on yours. That is something I'll champion all day long.

    As far as one abomination being worse than others, James 2:10 says you break one rule you've broken them all. So where does that leave you? Same place it leaves everyone else, including your personal gay boogie men.

    And in answer to your question, I am perfectly comfortable with who I am and the stance I've taken.
    You, I'm not so sure about with all of your protesting.
     
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  16. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    just a request but, can we put this thread to bed now ???
     
  17. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    There you say 90-99% evil

    And muslims are hateful

    Which is it? Seriously, your statements are so conflicting
     
  18. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    I played in the annual tennis tournament here yesterday. There was a gay men's doubles team - fortunately I didn't play them because they were damn good, but I like and respect the guys. There also was a Muslim couple from Pakistan in the mixed doubles. Fortunately we did play them, because they weren't any good at tennis, but they were nice people (and no, I'm not surprised by that hahaha). The point is, PERSONAL has nothing to do with this discussion. People can and should be civil to whoever while still realizing there is a strong chance that the Muslims sympathize with the actual Muslim terrorist evildoers, and homosexuals practice what the Bible calls and abomination. Do you poor politically correct fools have a problem with that?
     
  19. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    You can't see a difference between hateful and evil? One is a state of mind. The other is the result of actions. For about the dozenth time, the HUGE majority of Muslims hate America and sympathize with the relatively small percentage of actual evildoers perpetrating the terrorism. Can your sick "politically correct" mind comprehend that?
     
  20. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    WHY? I'm having fun, aren't you? I don't know about those politically correct losers - ya think they're having fun? Or just trying look up at the clear blue sky and manufacture some left wing pollution? hahahaha
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Why the name calling?

    Fools
    Sick minds

    --you said that and then proceed to name calling
     
  22. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Enough of the name calling..
     
  23. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Your posts are sad texas, not fun. You call Muslims hateful and ignorant and that's exactly what your posts are. IMO it's sad you are so proud of hating more than one billion people and so proud to revel in your ignorance. You still haven't provided one piece of evidence to support anything you post. Correcting your ignorance isn't "politically correct" and being uninformed isn't politically incorrect. Being inconsistent in your "arguments" isn't politically incorrect. Being unable to remember what you posted even though reviewing it is just a click away isn't politically incorrect. It's just ignorant and stupid. One our greatest Presidents has some advice for you from the grave: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt". Unfortunately for you, it's too late.
     
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  24. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    No Texas I'm not having fun mate. I have friends who are muslim and they're bloody good people. Two of my wives relatives are gay as I said before, not a life choice of mine and some would say, including myself, not a life choice of theirs either, they just are gay. A bit of tolerance in the world might make the world a better place. Just my opinion of course, but one I stand by.
     
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  25. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    You ....... PEOPLE ........ write like FOOLS - but don't like to be called FOOLS hahahaha. Grammatically speaking, saying somebody has a SICK MIND when they write SICK-MINDED stuff isn't namecalling ........ but whatever hahahaha. Is referring to you ........ PEOPLE ........ as "misguided", too harsh for your sensitivities? hahahaha

    Darth, I think it was, referred to PERSONAL relationships or whatever nicey nice crap it was, and I stated, as you quote, "people should be civil to whoever" - IN PERSON. Basically, in forums, anything goes, although I think I have gone pretty easy on you ....... PEOPLE ........ considering the weirdness level and the sick damned political correctness quotient of what you post (or is it wrong to namecall the crap you post too hahahaha?) Mr. "Super" Moderator, do you even know what "Political Correctness" refers to?

    Seriously, I am just stating the OBVIOUS - the HUGE majority of Muslims hate America and refer to themselves as our enemy (Jack, did I EVER say "I hate Muslims"? hahahaha), and homosexuality is referred to in the Bible as an "abomination" - that isn't an opinion, it's a FACT. The fact that I believe what the Bible says, I suppose you can call an opinion, and hell yeah, THAT I am proud of. Are YOU (and your buddy the "super" one) PROUD to be such staunch defenders of A. Muslims B. Homosexuality?

    Absolutely, this is FUN - defending truth, justice, and the American Way (not that I would refer to myself as "super" hahahaha) and sticking it to you ....... PEOPLE ........ who feel such compulsion to defend the indefensible.
     
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