Pass Rush in 2017

[Pokerbrat2000]

Which makes it all the more perplexing that he didn't seek to address the position more aggressively through free agency or trades.

Agreed. It was very telling to me. Here we needed OLB help and I kind of assumed based on TT's offseason comments and the little activity with the position (besides House), Ted was convinced that R & R play last year was a result of injuries. I read TT wrong, go figure. LOL But I am guessing if you asked him today he would say "I love Randall and Rollins, they are great players, but you can never have too many good players in the secondary". Wish that would have been the problem in 2016

 

[Dantés]

There was talk (here) about shifting Rollins over to the same type of roll that Hyde played, I guess I assume that may be where the Packers look to use Jones.

King is an obvious attempt at replacing one of them, or being groomed to replace House if either Randall or Rollins improves from 2016.

Thanks for sharing your thought process. Jones might be in for that Hyde role. I guess we'll see.

Personally, I think they need to stack these guys up and let them compete for roles. I'm not in favor of giving up on Randall or Rollins, or for handing them jobs. But because secondaries need so many bodies (basically 5 starters, an additional major role player for dime, and then reserves) I don't think taking two DB's in the 2nd necessarily means they're over the Randall/Rollins experiment.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Oh I agree, I don't think the Packers have fully given up on R & R, nor have I, but at some point you need a contingency plan after what we saw last year. I think House, King and Jones are that contingency plan (for the loss of Hyde too). How awesome would it be if both R & R go back to their Rookie year form? They may have to, at least to start the season, I don't have high expectations that King and/or Jones are going to walk out on that field opening day and look like seasoned vets, but I now expect that secondary to look better than it did last year, no matter what R & R do.

 

[rmontro]

I don't have high expectations that King and/or Jones are going to walk out on that field opening day and look like seasoned vets, but I now expect that secondary to look better than it did last year, no matter what R & R do.

They could put you and I on the field and the secondary would probably look better than it did last year, but point taken. I still think the defense will take more than a one year project to recover.

Regarding the pass rush, I think it's fair to say it's still a question mark, yes?

 

[pizzle]

I don't doubt that DB was going to be a high pick in this draft, I just don't think two consecutive picks on that position would have occured if the Rollins or Randall had shown themselves worthy of being drafted where they were. Now, they could (and I hope they do) make big leaps this year and prove that they are high quality players, but the Packers can't go back and trade in their picks this year for other guys at other positions of need. This defense is bereft of quality players and almost the entire pass rush is dependent on two guys who have had serious issues staying healthy for 16 games (has Perry actually ever played 16 games in a season?). Counting on Beigel to help with that is ignoring a ton of history that says guys drafted that late generally don't work out as often as the guys drafted earlier.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that having King, a Jordan Willis and a Randall who played like a first rounder would be really nice.

I think that you're spot on. While Randall and Rollins were really good as rookies, and I think will bounce back, last year was very bad for the both of them. What is worse is that because of their sophomore slumps/nagging injury issues last year, Ted didn't properly address our pass rush in the draft. Jordan Willis was right there for us to take. 4.53 40 yard dash time. Good motor. Leader by example type from most reports. A guy that looks like he probably would be a better candidate for transitioning out of college to a standup OLB in a 3-4 than as an undersized, weak-side DE in a 4-3 if coached right. Or in other words, a rich man's Nick Perry. Funny thing is, he might have taken to the switch much, much faster than Perry did-but since he plays for the Bengals now we'll never know since they use alot of 4-3 concepts out of 4-2-5 looks.

 

[SD Cheesehead]

They could put you and I on the field and the secondary would probably look better than it did last year, but point taken. I still think the defense will take more than a one year project to recover.

Regarding the pass rush, I think it's fair to say it's still a question mark, yes?

Secondary had nowhere to go but up. As for the pass rush I think Beigel was a decent depth pick but I don't feel like it's enough especially with Perry and CM3's injury history. If they are both healthy I like our rush but in the highly likely event that one of them goes down and we have to start Fackrell or Beigel our pass rush will be sketchy at best. Still can't believe we didn't make a stronger effort for Connor Barwin. Seemed too perfect as a veteran pass rusher who's best days were in 3-4, wouldn't cost s compensatory pick as he was cut, and signed for 3.5 mill. Very cheap for the type of security and upside he would have given our OLB's.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Possibly TT is keeping his eyes open for a veteran OLB that becomes a victim of salary or roster cuts. I too wanted to see Barwin as a Packer, just seemed to make a lot of sense. But that is why I am sitting here and not in an office at 1265 Lombardi Avenue.

 

[SD Cheesehead]

Any ideas on FA's that could still be available? I have a friend who think Dumervil may be an option as a veteran situational pass rusher? Not sure I agree but someone like that would be some nice insurance

 

[thequick12]

[QUOTE="We needed at least 2 Takkarist McKinley/Taco Charlton/Jordan Willis/Tyus Bowser/Daeshon Hall/Carl Lawson/Carroll Phillips/Dawuane Smoot .[/QUOTE]

of the edge guys you listed I'd rather have Willis and McKinley but he was gone by 29. I do prefer watt as well but he was gone by 33. rest of those guys I'm not real confident about don't think they will amount to much.

 

[rodell330]

Oh I agree, I don't think the Packers have fully given up on R & R, nor have I, but at some point you need a contingency plan after what we saw last year. I think House, King and Jones are that contingency plan (for the loss of Hyde too). How awesome would it be if both R & R go back to their Rookie year form? They may have to, at least to start the season, I don't have high expectations that King and/or Jones are going to walk out on that field opening day and look like seasoned vets, but I now expect that secondary to look better than it did last year, no matter what R & R do.

Well they can't get any worse that's for sure.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

has Perry actually ever played 16 games in a season?

No.

Overall Defence: Before: B- | After B+

Cornerbacks: Before: C- | After B-
Pass Rush: Before: B- | After B+​

I have absolutely no idea what justifies handing out a B- grade to the defense after the way the performed last season. In addition I don't believe the unit has significantly improved, especially the team's pass rush.

Any ideas on FA's that could still be available? I have a friend who think Dumervil may be an option as a veteran situational pass rusher? Not sure I agree but someone like that would be some nice insurance

Dumervil most likely presents the best chance of upgrading the pass rush with a veteran at the moment.

 

[PikeBadger]

Possibly TT is keeping his eyes open for a veteran OLB that becomes a victim of salary or roster cuts. I too wanted to see Barwin as a Packer, just seemed to make a lot of sense. But that is why I am sitting here and not in an office at 1265 Lombardi Avenue.

Lots of salary cap paring yet to come. There are still a half dozen teams that are pretty tight to the cap.

 

[Mavster]

I'm really worried about the pass rush. Perry and Clay can never stay healthy and its not like we have any solid guys behind them either.

 

[easyk83]

Oh I agree, I don't think the Packers have fully given up on R & R, nor have I, but at some point you need a contingency plan after what we saw last year. I think House, King and Jones are that contingency plan (for the loss of Hyde too). How awesome would it be if both R & R go back to their Rookie year form? They may have to, at least to start the season, I don't have high expectations that King and/or Jones are going to walk out on that field opening day and look like seasoned vets, but I now expect that secondary to look better than it did last year, no matter what R & R do.

Well is Davon House really a long term answer? Or is he just a solid player that a rejuvenated Randall could unseat?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well is Davon House really a long term answer? Or is he just a solid player that a rejuvenated Randall could unseat?

Considering that the Packers only gave him a one year deal, I would guess that they don't know what their long term plans for House or the other CB's is. House could become a solid fixture at CB or be out after one year, either way it gives the Packers a season to decide how everyone fits in going forward.

 

[pizzle]

The Packers totaled 40 sacks last season. Good for 6th (tie). They broke down like this:

-Nick Perry: 11
-Julius Peppers: 7.5
-Clay Matthews: 5
-Mike Daniels: 4
-Morgan Burnett: 3
-Kyler Fackrell: 2
-Dean Lowry: 2
-Datone Jones: 1
-Jay Elliott: 1
-Blake Martinez: 1
-Micah Hyde: 1
-Haha Clinton-Dix: .5

Obviously sacks are an imperfect measure of pressure, but they do give some indication.

So the Packers have lost 9.5 sacks from this list in guys who have moved on. How to replace it?

Well I don't think it would be fair to project the veteran guys to make up the difference. Perry had a good season and should have another one. But he's not going to be an 18 sack guy. 5-7 from CMIII would be right in line with what I'd expect from him at this point, and 4-5 is just about right for Daniels. No, the made up ground should come from the development of young players and the additions of new ones.

Kyler Fackrell and Dean Lowry have some pass rush talent/ability and are entering their second seasons. Both contributed 2 sacks last year, and a few more would be normal as they continue to get playing time.

Kenny Clark's playing time and quality increased as the season went along. He's never going to be a big time sack artist, but a handful wouldn't be surprising. RJF has also had 2-3 sacks every year going back to 2012.

And then you have the additions of Adams and Biegel. Given their talent, I think a pretty safe floor is to expect that they replace Lowry and Fackrell's production as those two move up in playing time. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Biegel has a nice rookie season.

Just looking at personnel, and barring a huge rash of injuries to the pass rushers, I would expect them to be in the same neighborhood as they were in 2016. Now if the players on the back end stay healthier and play better, that pressure could be put to better effect.

-Nick Perry: 11 (-4) 7 {Will regress as teams focus pass pro to his side}
-Julius Peppers: 7.5=Elvis Dumervil 7.5 {I think he could come in as a situational pass rusher for Nick and be excellent. RTs will find the change of pace he would be hard to deal with on late downs, especially with him fresher in our rotation. Essentially the best replacement we could get who is available at this point right now for JP}

-Clay Matthews: 5 (+2.5) 7.5 {With hopefully a full season of snaps and better health, this amt is more like 10-12 if coming from him playing more ILB}
-Mike Daniels: 4 {No more, no less from our top DL}
-Morgan Burnett: 3 {Continuing w/ him as a "money" backer should keep this number where it is}
-Kyler Fackrell: 2 {Not confident he can do more than he did last year}
-Dean Lowry: 2 (+1) 3 {I like Dean; he will continue to impress}
-Jay Elliott: 1 (+2) 3 {He will start out nice, then prolly get hurt again}

-Blake Martinez: 1 =Vince Biegel {Not sure what he will do, so will just keep this slot at 1 for him or Vince}

-Haha Clinton-Dix: 5 (-3) 2 {With drafting Jones/playing Morgan down in the box more, he will get less safety blitzes dialed up for him, which is what I actually hope for, because we need his patrolling skills most in centerfield to break up deep balls}
-Ahmad Brooks (6) {Would be our other starter opposite Nick. Move Clay to inside where he belongs. Good, solid vet to be equally good against the run and pass on early downs, then get subbed out for in late passing downs/later in games when we have big leads. Would fix our lack of pass rush issue and give our defense what it would need to get it over the top}

I tally that up to 46 sacks (in the regular season). That would put us somewhere in the top 3-5 of the NFL, and more importantly, help us to get more interceptions and fumbles that lead to extra possessions for AR and our offense-which generate points and early leads that we thrive off of. The key is obviously grabbing 2 high-quality vet street agents (one who is available now, one whom we would hope will eventually become a cap casualty) in Elvis and Ahmad. I think they complement our scheme well. Elvis has made a career off of getting to the QB, and is probably still better at it than Nick is, or in the ballpark range. So subbing Nick out for Elvis is not a drop-off at all, in my eyes. It's like bringing in a fastball pitcher for a knuckle-baller. Then Brooks solidifies everything, the LB core, our front seven, the whole D and their outlook/mentality. He's a tough guy and has shown how good he is throughout his time as a 49er, specifically when we couldn't get past them a few years back. Could set the edge and get pressure to satisfy our needs at the position. Has playoff experience as well, which is big to me. He would be great as an early down enforcer, who will not only be productive stats-wise but also be a leader on-the-field when it comes to making sure everyone is assignment sound and accountable. We don't necessarily need locker-room leaders because we have enough character guys on our squad. We just need guys who can produce. Guys on defense that are gonna be physical. Brooks is that. He puts Clay where he needs to be. I don't believe #52 is a top EDGE guy anymore for a multitude of reasons, and shouldn't be paid like one. However, Clay can be a really good ILB for quite a few years, and even make some more pro bowls. We win a SB this year with him doing that/us grabbing the two vets, and then we could restructure his contract (along with Aaron's contract retooling/raise) to help the cash out of Davante, Corey, Lane, and HHCD. Plus, it still leaves room for Jayrone, Kyler, and Biegel to get reps and show what they're worth. Ted has got to grab these guys if we're gonna get past teams like Dallas, Atlanta, and ultimately NE to win it all this season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

-Nick Perry: 11 (-4) 7 {Will regress as teams focus pass pro to his side}
-Julius Peppers: 7.5=Elvis Dumervil 7.5 {I think he could come in as a situational pass rusher for Nick and be excellent. RTs will find the change of pace he would be hard to deal with on late downs, especially with him fresher in our rotation. Essentially the best replacement we could get who is available at this point right now for JP}

-Clay Matthews: 5 (+2.5) 7.5 {With hopefully a full season of snaps and better health, this amt is more like 10-12 if coming from him playing more ILB}
-Mike Daniels: 4 {No more, no less from our top DL}
-Morgan Burnett: 3 {Continuing w/ him as a "money" backer should keep this number where it is}
-Kyler Fackrell: 2 {Not confident he can do more than he did last year}
-Dean Lowry: 2 (+1) 3 {I like Dean; he will continue to impress}
-Jay Elliott: 1 (+2) 3 {He will start out nice, then prolly get hurt again}

-Blake Martinez: 1 =Vince Biegel {Not sure what he will do, so will just keep this slot at 1 for him or Vince}

-Haha Clinton-Dix: 5 (-3) 2 {With drafting Jones/playing Morgan down in the box more, he will get less safety blitzes dialed up for him, which is what I actually hope for, because we need his patrolling skills most in centerfield to break up deep balls}
-Ahmad Brooks (6) {Would be our other starter opposite Nick. Move Clay to inside where he belongs. Good, solid vet to be equally good against the run and pass on early downs, then get subbed out for in late passing downs/later in games when we have big leads. Would fix our lack of pass rush issue and give our defense what it would need to get it over the top}

I tally that up to 46 sacks (in the regular season). That would put us somewhere in the top 3-5 of the NFL, and more importantly, help us to get more interceptions and fumbles that lead to extra possessions for AR and our offense-which generate points and early leads that we thrive off of. The key is obviously grabbing 2 high-quality vet street agents (one who is available now, one whom we would hope will eventually become a cap casualty) in Elvis and Ahmad. I think they complement our scheme well. Elvis has made a career off of getting to the QB, and is probably still better at it than Nick is, or in the ballpark range. So subbing Nick out for Elvis is not a drop-off at all, in my eyes. It's like bringing in a fastball pitcher for a knuckle-baller. Then Brooks solidifies everything, the LB core, our front seven, the whole D and their outlook/mentality. He's a tough guy and has shown how good he is throughout his time as a 49er, specifically when we couldn't get past them a few years back. Could set the edge and get pressure to satisfy our needs at the position. Has playoff experience as well, which is big to me. He would be great as an early down enforcer, who will not only be productive stats-wise but also be a leader on-the-field when it comes to making sure everyone is assignment sound and accountable. We don't necessarily need locker-room leaders because we have enough character guys on our squad. We just need guys who can produce. Guys on defense that are gonna be physical. Brooks is that. He puts Clay where he needs to be. I don't believe #52 is a top EDGE guy anymore for a multitude of reasons, and shouldn't be paid like one. However, Clay can be a really good ILB for quite a few years, and even make some more pro bowls. We win a SB this year with him doing that/us grabbing the two vets, and then we could restructure his contract (along with Aaron's contract retooling/raise) to help the cash out of Davante, Corey, Lane, and HHCD. Plus, it still leaves room for Jayrone, Kyler, and Biegel to get reps and show what they're worth. Ted has got to grab these guys if we're gonna get past teams like Dallas, Atlanta, and ultimately NE to win it all this season.

Some good stuff. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Clay playing inside and I think Martinez and Ryan are eventually going to be a solid duo of ILB's, so I would hate to see them lose snaps. I would prefer Clay focus on what he is/was good at, getting to the QB or disrupting the play, pass coverage and chasing running backs down doesn't seem to be his forte.

I would like to see the Packers sign Dumervil, but I think Ahmad Brooks is still under contract with the 49'ers?

 

[pizzle]

Some good stuff. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Clay playing inside and I think Martinez and Ryan are eventually going to be a solid duo of ILB's, so I would hate to see them lose snaps. I would prefer Clay focus on what he is/was good at, getting to the QB or disrupting the play, pass coverage and chasing running backs down doesn't seem to be his forte.

I would like to see the Packers sign Dumervil, but I think Ahmad Brooks is still under contract with the 49'ers?

Martinez and Ryan are decent ILBs, but I think there would be enough snaps for them even if Clay was moved inside permanently. I'd see Ryan as Big Mike-1st/2nd down/base personnel MLB. Blake is Little Mike-3rd down/nickel personnel MLB. Then you've got Joe for Dime, when Morgan replaces Clay and you can literally move #52 all over the field.

We need to sign Elvis. Like now. The more he is out there, the more I worry he will go back to the Ravens for a lower price.

And as for Brooks, yes-he is under contract with San Fran, but for just one more year and is one of those potential cuts you see of a veteran to save coin/make room for the new kids on the block. The more I look at the 49ers roster after the draft the more I see them letting Brooks go. If they do, we better snatch him up-FAST.

 

[thisisnate]

Just curious, anybody know much about Devin Taylor?

 

[pizzle]

Just curious, anybody know much about Devin Taylor?

I don't-but judging from his draft measurables he's got some serious athleticism. I do remember him making a couple of plays against us in the past couple seasons-I'd love to take a flyer on him and see if he could be an elephant in our scheme. Don't know if the business side will make him a fit for GB, though...

 

[Dantés]

Just curious, anybody know much about Devin Taylor?

I seem to vaguely remember reading that he was kind of passive on the field-- lacked that killer instinct. It's a shame, because he's so gifted.

 

[ExpatPacker]

No.



I have absolutely no idea what justifies handing out a B- grade to the defense after the way the performed last season. In addition I don't believe the unit has significantly improved, especially the team's pass rush.



Dumervil most likely presents the best chance of upgrading the pass rush with a veteran at the moment.

No kidding. That defense gets a "F" in my book.

 

[mradtke66]

-Clay Matthews: 5 (+2.5) 7.5 {With hopefully a full season of snaps and better health, this amt is more like 10-12 if coming from him playing more ILB}

I don't understand why you think this. Inside/Middle Linbackers get fewer chances to rush the passer. Putting him inside will give him less sacks. We have history on this: See 2015, when he was primarily an ILB. 6.5 sacks.

Move Clay to inside where he belongs.

Why do you think this? CM was at best, a middling ILB. He's athletic and smart, but he takes false steps and poor reads at times. He disappeared in two games. Against Oakland and Arizona, he was blanked entirely from the stat sheet. Not that total tackles are a good measure of a player, zero from an ILB means something is wrong.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Well is Davon House really a long term answer? Or is he just a solid player that a rejuvenated Randall could unseat?

There's absolutely no doubt that House could be unset by another cornerback.

I don't believe #52 is a top EDGE guy anymore for a multitude of reasons, and shouldn't be paid like one. However, Clay can be a really good ILB for quite a few years, and even make some more pro bowls.

Matthews is an average inside linebacker at best.

Just curious, anybody know much about Devin Taylor?

Taylor is a below average edge defender, therefore I would like the Packers to pass on him.

 

[PikeBadger]

I'm really worried about the pass rush. Perry and Clay can never stay healthy and its not like we have any solid guys behind them either.

Imo, the consistent quality of our pass rush likely hinges on the play of Kenny Clark, Francois and Dean Lowry. A consistent disruptor from that area of the DL would enable the others more opportunity to commit backfield mayhem.