Packers sign P Pat O'Donnell

Voyageur

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Crosby's stats for 2019 & 2020. Nobody seems to think about that. The two best years of his career.

2019 - He was 22-24, 91.7%, and his misses were one over 50 yards, and one over 40 yards.
2020 - He was a perfect 16 for 16. That's 100%!

That hardly sounds like the guy that I'm hearing has been bad for so many years now, and should have been cut long ago.

Just clarifying the facts here.
 

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Like always, Crosby has had rough patches that bring things down. Outside of that he's been a pretty reliable kicker and last year was a complete **** show. Blocking, snapping, holding, i'm not sure I can judge the kicking by anything other than what he's been in the past.
 

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Like always, Crosby has had rough patches that bring things down. Outside of that he's been a pretty reliable kicker and last year was a complete **** show. Blocking, snapping, holding, i'm not sure I can judge the kicking by anything other than what he's been in the past.
To give a comparison of kicking to other sports, the kicker is a lot like the pitcher in baseball. Like it or not, the snapper and holder in football are mimicked by the catcher in baseball. If you ask all the great pitchers of all time, they will name one, two, maybe three catchers that they felt the most confidence with being behind the plate. It's how they managed the flow of the game, how they called the pitches, how they set targets, and everything about how they played the position.

Why is it this way? Because a pitcher, just like a kicker, needs to know that they can shut out everything from their mind except kicking the ball, or throwing it. The rest is cared for by others that they can trust. There were even catchers, over the course of history in baseball, who really weren't good enough to be a regular in major league baseball, but were kept on teams, and used only on the days that they caught a super star pitcher, who wanted them back there.

In football, coaches and front offices don't seem to give a rip about that. They simply say; "Make it work." When it fails, people of course turn against the kicker, and want them replaced.

Look at Adam Vinatieri, who played 10 seasons with the Patriots, and 14 with the Colts. The Pats figured he was all through, and let him walk. The Colts signed him and he upped his FG percentage by about 5 points for the second part of his career, because he was kicking indoors half the time. His last three years were down hill, granted, but he was 47 years old when he played his last season. Based on that fact, and the fact that Crosby is a health freak, he could be a steady competitor for a few more years. But, my bet is, it won't be in GB, and a lot of people who want to see him going are going to be mad because the new kicker sucks and we're watching Mason having a few good years somewhere else.

Kicking is as much psychological as it is physical. It's like pitching in baseball. I've watched guys struggle for two or three years, and then explode as a star, or lose it, when they've been a star, simply because of how it plays out in their heads. They're doing nothing different in their delivery, or any part of throwing the ball, except that intangible inside is letting them put that baseball into small spots at the plate where it's near impossible to hit, based on how you're standing in there. For the hitters, it too is psychological as much as physical. You go into a slump, and you stay in the slump, as long as you think inside that you're in a slump. The moment you let that go, you start getting hits.
 
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captainWIMM

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I disagree with you that Crosby is a below-average kicker. I know the stats, I know what they show.

I don't understand it, Packers fans don't ignore the facts with any other player aside of Crosby.
 
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I have said it repeatedly, Crosby is the only player I can remember the majority of fans have gone to length to come up with excuses for his performance despite evidence showing he has been below average for most of his career.
Just a thought. But someone posted the top Kickers in league history and he came in at like #52 overall??
How could he be below average of just the 175 odd Kickers that qualified? Hmmm
Something doesn’t smell right. Lol

In addition, Mason ranks #14 for the most points scored in the history of the NFL and he’s still rising. You don’t even get Longevity unless you are consistent. He’s recently passed some big time names along the way. Stenerud, Longwell, Akers etc..

Mason Crosby and Robbie Gould
are now neck and neck as the only active Kickers likely to surpass the next tier of greats very soon. George Blanda, Gostkowski, Janikowski are all about to slip down the list.
That’ll very likely happen before the end of 2023. Mason is now fighting for a Top 5 NFL historical spots in 2024.
The “NFL Most points scored” list

Pretty Stellar company there. It sure would be nice to cap it off with a couple SB rings ?

PS.
Mason (696) needs 4 extra points made to pass Stephen Gostkowski (699) for #6 in NFL history for most XPM. At which time 3 of the 5 Kickers in front of him are in the Hall of Fame. Only Adam Vinateiri #2 overall (874) played in an era with same XP distance.

Mason is also distinguished as 1 of only 3 players that stayed with 1 team and made the top 25 scoring list (Jason Hanson, Lou Groza)
 
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captainWIMM

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Just a thought. But someone posted the top Kickers in league history and he came in at like #52 overall??
How could he be below average of just the 175 odd Kickers that qualified? Hmmm
Something doesn’t smell right. Lol

You need to realize that kickers have significantly improved over the course of NFL history. Out of the 118 qualified kickers ranked behind Crosby in field goal percentage only 14 even played after Crosby was drafted and only two of them are still active.

Therefore it makes much more sense to take a look at kickers with at least 100 field goals (the minimum requirement to be considered qualified) since Crosby entered the league in 2007. He's ranked 51st in field goal percentage out of those 57 kickers, which actually makes him significantly below average.
 

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You need to realize that kickers have significantly improved over the course of NFL history. Out of the 118 qualified kickers ranked behind Crosby in field goal percentage only 14 even played after Crosby was drafted and only two of them are still active.

Therefore it makes much more sense to take a look at kickers with at least 100 field goals (the minimum requirement to be considered qualified) since Crosby entered the league in 2007. He's ranked 51st in field goal percentage out of those 57 kickers, which actually makes him significantly below average.
None of which can factor in domed stadiums, the largest increase in warmer climate teams, artificial turf kicking versus greasy, wet, frozen, muddy, and slippery grass fields, a huge change in the material of the ball itself. There are so many factors that have an effect. Like I pointed out, with Adam V., who had two careers. One with the Pats, the second with the Colts. His percentage went up 3 points in over a decade of kicking in each stadium, because the Colts played indoors for home games.

We can argue these points forever, and the simple fact is, we all have our opinion of whether or not he's done a good job. In the end, someone in the Packers front office, and on the sidelines, seems to think he has, or he would have been gone somewhere along the line. Obviously nobody has been found that's been brought to camp in 15 years who can beat him out. I think that accounts for something.
 
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captainWIMM

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None of which can factor in domed stadiums, the largest increase in warmer climate teams, artificial turf kicking versus greasy, wet, frozen, muddy, and slippery grass fields, a huge change in the material of the ball itself. There are so many factors that have an effect.

Once again, another Packers fan making up excuses for Crosby while ignoring the facts. How do you explain that opposing kickers have a better field goal percentage than Crosby at Lambeau? Why do you ignore that Crosby plays half of his games on the road, where his field goal percentage of 80.60% is worse than while playing at home?

We can argue these points forever, and the simple fact is, we all have our opinion of whether or not he's done a good job. In the end, someone in the Packers front office, and on the sidelines, seems to think he has, or he would have been gone somewhere along the line. Obviously nobody has been found that's been brought to camp in 15 years who can beat him out. I think that accounts for something.

The Packers have done a terrible job of bringing in competition for Crosby. That's not an evidence of him being great but the front office not getting the job done though.
 

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So, in 2019 he was 22 of 24, and in 2020, he was 16 of 16. That does not sound like a kicker who isn't accurate. But, because of last year's debacle, which was pointed out as being more of a blocking, snap, and hold problem, and proven accurate in the playoffs, and even admitted to by the coaches, Crosby should be thrown under the bus as the sacrificial lamb for the poor decisions made by players assigned the aforementioned duties?

What you haven't considered is that there are no Packer kickers except for Longwell and Crosby anywhere in the stats that resemble what people who live on stats alone consider "decent." It makes me wonder how guys like Jan Stenerud with just under 70% over a career made it into the HOF.

Oh! I got it! He kicked on grass, and outdoors, just like Crosby. At least those people understand the mechanics and the results, based on surfaces and weather. And, by the way, you might want to look at Jan's 4 years in GB. He kicked at an 81% rate.

Kicking isn't just stats. It's making that big kick when you need it, especially in bad weather. Crosby has been as good as anybody at that over the course of all the years I've watched the Packers, and that's over 70 years. But, what would I know, the Packers front office know, the coaches know, or anyone else? The stats say we're all wrong.......

Yet, when the season starts, if he's healthy, Mason Crosby will be the Packers kicker, and the carping against him will continue, just like it does against Rodgers, because he hasn't won enough Super Bowls for some people, who think that's the only stat that matters for a QB.
 

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How's Pat O'Donnell looked? Also, I'm nervous about going into the season with Crosby. He's old and the kicker position needs to be addressed. I'm always nervous when that guy kicks, especially the last couple of seasons.
 

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How's Pat O'Donnell looked? Also, I'm nervous about going into the season with Crosby. He's old and the kicker position needs to be addressed. I'm always nervous when that guy kicks, especially the last couple of seasons.
Crosby has a career (& 2021) average kickoff distance of 64.3 yards... Ramiz Ahmed's USFL average (37 kickoffs) was 70.6 yards!! Kid needs to show accuracy & consistency in his FG/Extra Pt. attempts during practice as well as games for another week to give Gute something to think about at final cuts time.

Crosby has been kicking in camp but still doesn't feel "right"... maybe keeping on PUP for 1st 4 weeks of Regular Season allows for a longer look at Ahmed, although risky if he starts sucking Week 2. Cutting Crosby creates $2.34Mil dead cap money, but creates a cap savings of $2.395Mil.
 
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None of which can factor in domed stadiums, the largest increase in warmer climate teams, artificial turf kicking versus greasy, wet, frozen, muddy, and slippery grass fields, a huge change in the material of the ball itself. There are so many factors that have an effect. Like I pointed out, with Adam V., who had two careers. One with the Pats, the second with the Colts. His percentage went up 3 points in over a decade of kicking in each stadium, because the Colts played indoors for home games.

We can argue these points forever, and the simple fact is, we all have our opinion of whether or not he's done a good job. In the end, someone in the Packers front office, and on the sidelines, seems to think he has, or he would have been gone somewhere along the line. Obviously nobody has been found that's been brought to camp in 15 years who can beat him out. I think that accounts for something.
Yeah 2-3% points at FG was about where I surmised a warm weather Kicker had advantage wise. I tried to factor in the fact that Kickers only play 1/2 games at their home stadium so it reduces the full impact. Mason has 2 Division games in an easier dome, but 1 at Soldier Field which isn’t exactly easy either.
Also, occasionally in in-climate weather, the teams will choose not to try a longer FG, just to show there’s other variables. However I don’t think there’s any question that Lambeau is not a desirable place to kick a FG when accounting for Bay winds and cold combined. I would be shocked if Mason’s average % didn’t increase at least 2-3% just playing home games in a dome. That’s at the lower conservative end imo.

So again I actually love stats, but they don’t really give a perfect and accurate reading comparing Kickers. Probably closer to accurate on XP though, with a minimal variance. The league K stats are a general measuring tool that should definitely be factored, but adjusted according to specific Stadiums.

Can @captainWIMM or anyone get a stat on several Dome stadiums in comparison for a K group?? Like the Splits they sometimes use? That would be far more compelling evidence
 
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Just 1 more thing on I researched on travel distance for a football. On the 13 longest FG ever made this is the results of Stadiums

Tucker 66 (dome/Detroit)
Prater 64 (Denver mile high stadium)
Maher 63 (dome/Cowboys stadium)
Janikowski 63 (Denver)
Gano 63 (N.C. Panthers 10-7-18)
Elam 63 (Denver)
Dempsey 63 (Saints 11/8/70)
Akers 63 (Lambeau 9/9/12)
Prater 62 (dome Arizona)
Maher 62 (@Jets 10/13/19)
Maher 62 (dome AT&T)
Gostkowski 62 (dome @Raiders)
Bryant 62 ([email protected])

Of the top 13 longest FG 6 were in Domes.

Of the top 5 longest FG made, 3/5 of them were at Mile High Stadium in Denver by 3 different Kickers.

Of the remaining 4/4 FG, the fans were wearing shorts or short sleeves (I watched each on YouTube) only 1 was after October and it was in NO at like 70+ degrees.

The most impressive was Akers 63yd @ Lambeau on Sept 9 (week1) and it actually hit the bottom of the uprights and bounced in.

0/13 longest FG’s on record were in cold weather.
 
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Pkrjones

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I was premature in my excitement for Ahmed's future in GB. The Packers worked out 4 kickers, today: Cameron Dikcer (purposely reversed the interior consonants to bypass censorship), Chandler Staton, Matt Amendola and Parker White.

I may have been correct, however, questioning Crosby's injury & possibly staying on PUP into the regular season.
 

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I was premature in my excitement for Ahmed's future in GB. The Packers worked out 4 kickers, today: Cameron Dikcer (purposely reversed the interior consonants to bypass censorship), Chandler Staton, Matt Amendola and Parker White.

I may have been correct, however, questioning Crosby's injury & possibly staying on PUP into the regular season.
yeah, i don't think he will be ready to play by week 1. and i also thought we stumbled onto a good prospect with ahmed. there must be something the packers didn't like.
 

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I could be wrong on this and I don't recall the exact numbers but I seem to recall the difference between a bottom 1/3 and top 1/3 kicker percentage wise was something like making 3 more kicks in a season. I just think using strictly percentage is not necessarily the best way to judge a kicker.
 
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captainWIMM

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So, in 2019 he was 22 of 24, and in 2020, he was 16 of 16. That does not sound like a kicker who isn't accurate. But, because of last year's debacle, which was pointed out as being more of a blocking, snap, and hold problem, and proven accurate in the playoffs, and even admitted to by the coaches, Crosby should be thrown under the bus as the sacrificial lamb for the poor decisions made by players assigned the aforementioned duties?

Actually Crosby was pretty good in 2019 and '20. That should be considered as an outlier compared to the rest of his career though.

What you haven't considered is that there are no Packer kickers except for Longwell and Crosby anywhere in the stats that resemble what people who live on stats alone consider "decent." It makes me wonder how guys like Jan Stenerud with just under 70% over a career made it into the HOF.

Oh! I got it! He kicked on grass, and outdoors, just like Crosby. At least those people understand the mechanics and the results, based on surfaces and weather. And, by the way, you might want to look at Jan's 4 years in GB. He kicked at an 81% rate.

You just don't understand that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare kickers from different eras based on field goal percentage.

While Stenerud only made 66.85% of his attempts over his career, that was 4.38% over the league average during that period. While in Green Bay for four seasons, his FG percentage of 80.82% was an astonishing 13.64% over the league average from 1980-83.

He was an elite kicker compared to the rest of his peers at that point while Crosby has mostly been below average for all of his career.

Yet, when the season starts, if he's healthy, Mason Crosby will be the Packers kicker, and the carping against him will continue, just like it does against Rodgers, because he hasn't won enough Super Bowls for some people, who think that's the only stat that matters for a QB.

The huge difference being that Rodgers has been criticized by the majority of Packers' fans during the rare seasons his numbers dropped despite he never finished below average in passer rating in any of those years. For some reason, the same approach isn't applied when talking about Crosby.

Crosby has a career (& 2021) average kickoff distance of 64.3 yards... Ramiz Ahmed's USFL average (37 kickoffs) was 70.6 yards!!

You need to consider that kickoffs take place from the 25-yard line in the USFL though.

I would be shocked if Mason’s average % didn’t increase at least 2-3% just playing home games in a dome. That’s at the lower conservative end imo.

You're right about that, Crosby has a field goal percentage of 84.6% playing in domes while only 80.4% in outdoor stadiums.

Can @captainWIMM or anyone get a stat on several Dome stadiums in comparison for a K group?? Like the Splits they sometimes use? That would be far more compelling evidence

Here's a list of field goal percentage at all stadiums that have been around since 2007:

Carolina 85.93%
Jacksonville 85.91%
Pittsburgh 85.33%
Cincinnati 85.08%
Philadelphia 84.96%
Tennessee 84.90%
Baltimore 84.45%
Houston 84.30%
New England 83.66%
Seattle 83.60%
Denver 83.47%
Detroit 83.37%
Buffalo 82.64%
Green Bay 82.57%
Kansas City 82.42%
Chicago 82.06%
Arizona 81.72%
New Orleans 81.47%
Miami 80.95%
Cleveland 80.92%
Washington 80.85%
Tampa Bay 78.57%

It doesn't seem to be much easier to kick in a dome or in warm weather, teams just need a talented kicker to make it work.

I could be wrong on this and I don't recall the exact numbers but I seem to recall the difference between a bottom 1/3 and top 1/3 kicker percentage wise was something like making 3 more kicks in a season. I just think using strictly percentage is not necessarily the best way to judge a kicker.

For example, last season Crosby would have had to make six more field goals to move into the top 1/3 kickers in the league. That's a pretty significant number considering he only attempted 34 field goals.
 

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Thanks for the stats by stadium. It's an interesting one to say the least. Since half of Crosby's games are played at Lambeau Field, I'm going to use just the figures shown to compare. Mason's career average is 81.1%, and the Lambeau average is 82.57%. That's only a difference of 1.5%. About average. But, that does not even touch on a spread of from distances that the misses came, whether the miss was on Crosby, the holder, the snapper, or the blockers, and the weather conditions. It's entirely possible that some of those misses are also due to bad weather, and bad footing on the field.

There are so many intangibles in evaluating kickers that it ends up more subjective. Even having the yips, because of bad holds, snaps, and blocks earlier in the game, or season, can contribute to lowering the made percentage.
 
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captainWIMM

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It's an interesting one to say the least. Since half of Crosby's games are played at Lambeau Field, I'm going to use just the figures shown to compare. Mason's career average is 81.1%, and the Lambeau average is 82.57%. That's only a difference of 1.5%. About average.

It's actually disappointing that opponents have a better combined field goal percentage at Lambeau than Crosby who should be used to kicking in Green Bay.

But, that does not even touch on a spread of from distances that the misses came, whether the miss was on Crosby, the holder, the snapper, or the blockers, and the weather conditions. It's entirely possible that some of those misses are also due to bad weather, and bad footing on the field.

Crosby's misses at Lambeau have come from an average distance of 45.95 yards, those of opponents from 47.81 yards. Once again, some evidence to support Crosby is a below average kicker. I'm absolutely convinced it will get ignored and excuses will be continued to be made for him.
 

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It's actually disappointing that opponents have a better combined field goal percentage at Lambeau than Crosby who should be used to kicking in Green Bay.



Crosby's misses at Lambeau have come from an average distance of 45.95 yards, those of opponents from 47.81 yards. Once again, some evidence to support Crosby is a below average kicker. I'm absolutely convinced it will get ignored and excuses will be continued to be made for him.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It might sound a little hokey, but I've watched so many kickers who've kicked for the Packers, and I've found that over those years, Mason has been one of the best, when the chips are down.

It isn't always about the percentage you make, but how well you handle those game winning kicks. You could have 3 misses in a game, for various reasons, including weather, etc, then make that 50+ yard kick that wins the game to save a game that you could have easily lost. That is where I see Crosby. He's one of the better kickers in that area, in history.

I think you'd best look at these stats, because they tell the story of someone much more reliable than what you indicated.

 
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captainWIMM

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It isn't always about the percentage you make, but how well you handle those game winning kicks. You could have 3 misses in a game, for various reasons, including weather, etc, then make that 50+ yard kick that wins the game to save a game that you could have easily lost. That is where I see Crosby. He's one of the better kickers in that area, in history.

Well, if that kicker wouldn't have missed those three kicks there would have been no need for him to hit the one to win it in the end.

I think you'd best look at these stats, because they tell the story of someone much more reliable than what you indicated.


Maybe I'm missing something here, but what does the Packers overall record since 2007 tell us about Crosby's performance???
 

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We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It might sound a little hokey, but I've watched so many kickers who've kicked for the Packers, and I've found that over those years, Mason has been one of the best, when the chips are down.

It isn't always about the percentage you make, but how well you handle those game winning kicks. You could have 3 misses in a game, for various reasons, including weather, etc, then make that 50+ yard kick that wins the game to save a game that you could have easily lost. That is where I see Crosby. He's one of the better kickers in that area, in history.

I think you'd best look at these stats, because they tell the story of someone much more reliable than what you indicated.

The only issue with your analogy is if the kicker would have made 2 of those earlier 3 misses there would be no need for a game winning 50 yarder.
 

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I guess what it comes down to for me is.....

1. How many game winners has Crosby made?
2. How many game winners has Crosby missed?
3. Is he reliable in the playoffs?
4. Is his kickoff performance still acceptable?

A game changer for me is if he's lost too many yards on kickoffs or is shanking kicks out of bounds.
 
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