Packers O Formation(s) Question

[jakemillar]

Hey all,

I've got a question in regards to certain Packers offensive formation(s) and a tendency that they seem to do, more than any other team by far, that I have (literally) for years been unable to figure out why they (or Mike McCarthy specifically) do this. I have asked Peter King from MMQB via email, I've asked Peter's columnist and writer Andy Benoit, and other knowledgeable football fans, with none of them able to give me an answer definitively as to why. Some have told me it could be a timing thing but I don't buy that, while others have told me its to allow the outside receivers to motion in, which McCarthy never does anyways, so I've remained stumped. It's entirely possible that the only person who could answer this are someone who works with the offensive staff, or Mike McCarthy himself. Here goes:

Whenever GB is in a formation that lends itself to have a slot receiver on the field, whether it be a WR, TE, or RB, the inside slot receiver is always ON the line of scrimmage, as opposed to being OFF the LOS. It doesn't matter what personnel grouping or who the personnel are, since Mike McCarthy has been the head coach, this is the case 99% of the time.

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In this case, GB was in 11 personnel in their staple 3x1 formation. They have the TE flexed wide left, with Jordy in the inside slot, again, ON the line of scrimmage, with Cobb & Adams outside of him, both OFF the line of scrimmage.

I understand that there must be 7 men on the LOS, but Green Bay is consistently the only team who seemingly only place their slot receiver ON the LOS. Compared to other teams, no team is as rigid when it comes to this, and I don't understand the reasoning for it.

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A more static formation above, but the same thing; Cobb is ON the LOS. Seemingly every time, whether it's in a basic gun "doubles" formation, I form, pistol, or when they're in the 3x1 gun sets, the slot receiver is ALWAYS ON the LOS. Conversely, New England NEVER does this. Their slot receivers, much like most teams in the NFL, are almost always OFF the LOS, and this made sense to me for years because I thought that the additional space between the slot receiver and the slot defender allowed for easier releases.

Here's a similar 3x1 formation that Green Bay loves to use, but from New England. Note the Z receiver (flanker) to the field side at the bottom, Malcolm Mitchell, is ON the LOS, while Edelman and Amendola, the two slot receivers, are OFF the LOS.

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I'm aware of Mike McCarthy's offensive coaching bloodline is very West Coast, and I understand that even before McCarthy this is something you might have seen from any West Coast offense, but specifically in Green Bay anyways, dating back to the Holmgren days. From what I understand, Mike McCarthy comes from the Paul Hackett football tree of offensive systems specifically, and I've seen footage dating back to as far as 1997 while Hackett was the offensive coordinator in Kansas City (where McCarthy was on the staff) where that Chiefs team had the same staple of deploying the inside receiver ON the LOS, although back then it was much less shotgun 3x1 and more singleback 3x1, etc.

Is this just a Mike McCarthy thing? He's just doing it the way he's always done it? Or is there a reason why this is done specifically, and for years without changing?

I apologize for being scattery in my delivery of this question. I hope it was clear enough to get across the question at hand. Any insight from anybody on this topic would be greatly appreciated!

 

[brandon2348]

I see the benefit of having the slot receiver on LOS is that it allows that receiver to get down the field quicker with a successful release to stretch the middle of the defense allowing outside guys to get into there routes. If you have a slot receiver pressing the free safety it allows less help for the defense on the outside guys.

In a perfect MM world he likes big bodies attacking the middle of the field and occupying the defense which opens things up for the perimeter guys to work there routes. This is one of the reasons I am so excited about the Packers offense this season is he has the personnel to run a variety of things he likes.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I see the benefit of having the slot receiver on LOS is that it allows that receiver to get down the field quicker with a successful release to stretch the middle of the defense allowing outside guys to get into there routes. If you have a slot receiver pressing the free safety it allows less help for the defense on the outside guys.

In a perfect MM world he likes big bodies attacking the middle of the field and occupying the defense which opens things up for the perimeter guys to work there routes. This is one of the reasons I am so excited about the Packers offense this season is he has the personnel to run a variety of things he likes.

This is what I was thinking dang near exactly. You need to pick a player to put up on the LOS. The slot is that guy in McCarthy s strategy I'm assuming. The middle guy keeping the defense honest, and getting the defenders to commit to the middle long enough for the outside guys to get open...

I think this team is going to break defenses this year. Jordy, Adams outside...... Big Bennett at TE now. The 10 MIL dollar man Randall Cobb in the slot slicing and dicing the scraps... and let's not forget da Mont-ster in the backfield. Going deep with the rb is a huge mismatch against any lb. Not to mention the dump off pass going for 15 and breaking the defense... Marshall Faulk type potential in Montgomery...imho

 

[Dantés]

Pretty tough question to answer. Maybe MM prefers to have his outside receivers off the LOS to help in getting off press? That's a total shot in the dark, but it's the only theory that occurs to me.

 

[jakemillar]

I see the benefit of having the slot receiver on LOS is that it allows that receiver to get down the field quicker with a successful release to stretch the middle of the defense allowing outside guys to get into there routes. If you have a slot receiver pressing the free safety it allows less help for the defense on the outside guys.

In a perfect MM world he likes big bodies attacking the middle of the field and occupying the defense which opens things up for the perimeter guys to work there routes. This is one of the reasons I am so excited about the Packers offense this season is he has the personnel to run a variety of things he likes.

I have pondered this version of this question for a long time and I don't mean to shoot your idea down, it's totally plausible too, but what sort of breaks this theory down is the fact that the Packers will seemingly flip flop any active pass catcher into that "inside slot" of the 3x1 set.

If it's a size thing, i.e. a "big body" over the middle of the field, then why did Greg Jennings occupy this spot almost exclusively from 2009-2012? If it's a speed thing, then why do we see Richard Rodgers occasionally occupy this spot in the last 2 seasons?

For example, on many occasions last year, when Aaron kept it up tempo and "no-huddle" keeping the 11 personnel group on the field, a 4 play sequence might see Jared Cook, followed by Jordy Nelson, followed by Randall Cobb and then Davante Adams all occupy the inside receiver spot in those 4 plays. I saw this on more than one occasion.

This tells me that who and why they are in that spot on said play is less about a certain skill set or body type, and more about a philosophy that's in place that McCarthy has always had, which I just can't seem to figure out but am dying to know.

Keep in mind, I am not only applying this to the 3x1 "trey open" formation that Green Bay uses most, this also applies to any formation with 3WRs, where that slot receiver is seemingly always placed on the LOS, never off of it.

Pretty tough question to answer. Maybe MM prefers to have his outside receivers off the LOS to help in getting off press? That's a total shot in the dark, but it's the only theory that occurs to me.

I for one, at this point, am beginning to side with the fact that as fans we may never know the true answer, unless somebody hears it from Mike McCarthy or Paul Hackett themselves. The idea of having certain receivers who are ON vs OFF the LOS allow them to get down field easier based on the distance allowed between them and the defender is also plausible, but what maybe nullifies this is the fact that the receivers for Green Bay, generally the top 2 WRs, the ones who are capable of (in theory) being able to get off the LOS the best, are always the ones put in these 2 inside slot positions. Davante Adams, despite some of his flaws, consistently gets some of the best releases off the LOS in the entire NFL, so why the need to move him away from the other teams (in theory) better outside corners?

I know what I am saying in rebute seems dismissive, I am not trying to be so I apologize if this is how it seems; plainly, I just would like to know, if it's possible for anyone to know this, what the TRUE reasoning for this is. Not speculation or possibilities. The actual reason is what I'm looking for, as I myself have pondered it all for years now.

Thanks guys, lets see what we can drum up.

 

[Poppa San]

All guesses:
Easier to crack block if it's a run.
Easier to align with the ball to not be offside.
Outside receiver can step up to the line if the slot lines up too deep.
Just because he wants a standard policy.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Hey all,

I've got a question in regards to certain Packers offensive formation(s) and a tendency that they seem to do, more than any other team by far, that I have (literally) for years been unable to figure out why they (or Mike McCarthy specifically) do this. I have asked Peter King from MMQB via email, I've asked Peter's columnist and writer Andy Benoit, and other knowledgeable football fans, with none of them able to give me an answer definitively as to why. Some have told me it could be a timing thing but I don't buy that, while others have told me its to allow the outside receivers to motion in, which McCarthy never does anyways, so I've remained stumped. It's entirely possible that the only person who could answer this are someone who works with the offensive staff, or Mike McCarthy himself. Here goes:

Whenever GB is in a formation that lends itself to have a slot receiver on the field, whether it be a WR, TE, or RB, the inside slot receiver is always ON the line of scrimmage, as opposed to being OFF the LOS. It doesn't matter what personnel grouping or who the personnel are, since Mike McCarthy has been the head coach, this is the case 99% of the time.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

In this case, GB was in 11 personnel in their staple 3x1 formation. They have the TE flexed wide left, with Jordy in the inside slot, again, ON the line of scrimmage, with Cobb & Adams outside of him, both OFF the line of scrimmage.

I understand that there must be 7 men on the LOS, but Green Bay is consistently the only team who seemingly only place their slot receiver ON the LOS. Compared to other teams, no team is as rigid when it comes to this, and I don't understand the reasoning for it.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

A more static formation above, but the same thing; Cobb is ON the LOS. Seemingly every time, whether it's in a basic gun "doubles" formation, I form, pistol, or when they're in the 3x1 gun sets, the slot receiver is ALWAYS ON the LOS. Conversely, New England NEVER does this. Their slot receivers, much like most teams in the NFL, are almost always OFF the LOS, and this made sense to me for years because I thought that the additional space between the slot receiver and the slot defender allowed for easier releases.

Here's a similar 3x1 formation that Green Bay loves to use, but from New England. Note the Z receiver (flanker) to the field side at the bottom, Malcolm Mitchell, is ON the LOS, while Edelman and Amendola, the two slot receivers, are OFF the LOS.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I'm aware of Mike McCarthy's offensive coaching bloodline is very West Coast, and I understand that even before McCarthy this is something you might have seen from any West Coast offense, but specifically in Green Bay anyways, dating back to the Holmgren days. From what I understand, Mike McCarthy comes from the Paul Hackett football tree of offensive systems specifically, and I've seen footage dating back to as far as 1997 while Hackett was the offensive coordinator in Kansas City (where McCarthy was on the staff) where that Chiefs team had the same staple of deploying the inside receiver ON the LOS, although back then it was much less shotgun 3x1 and more singleback 3x1, etc.

Is this just a Mike McCarthy thing? He's just doing it the way he's always done it? Or is there a reason why this is done specifically, and for years without changing?

I apologize for being scattery in my delivery of this question. I hope it was clear enough to get across the question at hand. Any insight from anybody on this topic would be greatly appreciated!

It's an interesting observation but unfortunately I don't have any idea about the reasoning behind it.

 

[gopkrs]

I like the idea that a quicker release by the slot receiver makes the safety decide what to do right away and maybe loosens it up for the wide outs. I also like the idea of the halfback sometimes going deep and having a linebacker on him. Unfortunately I don't think going deep is a strong suit for Montgomery. Lenny Moore was great at that for the old Colts and Edgar Bennett was very good at catching long passes when he had the chance.

 

[brandon2348]

I have pondered this version of this question for a long time and I don't mean to shoot your idea down, it's totally plausible too, but what sort of breaks this theory down is the fact that the Packers will seemingly flip flop any active pass catcher into that "inside slot" of the 3x1 set.

If it's a size thing, i.e. a "big body" over the middle of the field, then why did Greg Jennings occupy this spot almost exclusively from 2009-2012? If it's a speed thing, then why do we see Richard Rodgers occasionally occupy this spot in the last 2 seasons?

For example, on many occasions last year, when Aaron kept it up tempo and "no-huddle" keeping the 11 personnel group on the field, a 4 play sequence might see Jared Cook, followed by Jordy Nelson, followed by Randall Cobb and then Davante Adams all occupy the inside receiver spot in those 4 plays. I saw this on more than one occasion.

This tells me that who and why they are in that spot on said play is less about a certain skill set or body type, and more about a philosophy that's in place that McCarthy has always had, which I just can't seem to figure out but am dying to know.

Keep in mind, I am not only applying this to the 3x1 "trey open" formation that Green Bay uses most, this also applies to any formation with 3WRs, where that slot receiver is seemingly always placed on the LOS, never off of it.



I for one, at this point, am beginning to side with the fact that as fans we may never know the true answer, unless somebody hears it from Mike McCarthy or Paul Hackett themselves. The idea of having certain receivers who are ON vs OFF the LOS allow them to get down field easier based on the distance allowed between them and the defender is also plausible, but what maybe nullifies this is the fact that the receivers for Green Bay, generally the top 2 WRs, the ones who are capable of (in theory) being able to get off the LOS the best, are always the ones put in these 2 inside slot positions. Davante Adams, despite some of his flaws, consistently gets some of the best releases off the LOS in the entire NFL, so why the need to move him away from the other teams (in theory) better outside corners?

I know what I am saying in rebute seems dismissive, I am not trying to be so I apologize if this is how it seems; plainly, I just would like to know, if it's possible for anyone to know this, what the TRUE reasoning for this is. Not speculation or possibilities. The actual reason is what I'm looking for, as I myself have pondered it all for years now.

Thanks guys, lets see what we can drum up.

Well i don't belive there is just "one reason" MM does this. To dig further the Packers use there receivers universally so I suppose that plays into it somewhat with always doing it. If they just lined up that way on certain plays it would tip the defense off to what's coming.

MM also likes to run WR screens where having the outside guy off the line gives him more room to make a move and allows the slot receiver the quickest path to kick out and block.

 

[El Guapo]

Doesn't McCarthy have a coach show on television?

 

[Pkrjones]

I'm siding with the last 2 reasons of Poppa San, above.

Outside Receiver could step up - eliminating illegal formation penalty.

Standard Policy - As McCarthy changes who is in that slot position seemingly every play he has a standard in place that whoever is in that slot position is up on the LOS. The league average for illegal formation penalties was 2.13, whereas GB had only 1.
http://www.nflpenalties.com/team/green-bay-packers?year=2016&view=penalties

Also may be that off of the LOS for outside receivers gives them an extra step to beat a jam as seen in OP's 2nd pic.

 

[BigCheese]

I'd add that this also allows the outside reciever to go in motion, which helps get more favorable matchups and tip the coverage better than the slot receivers motioning across the formation.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It's McCarthy, there was probably a way that this alignment helped against defenses some years ago and he got used to it and once McCarthy is used to something, he'll stick with it no matter what. We all know that the Packers like to use 11 personnel more than any team in the NFL; occasionally this has actually reached the realm of the ridiculous (I think it was 2013 where the league average was 51.62% of the time teams used 11 personnel and the Packers were at 84%....third place were Giants at 70%). McCarthy is great at player development but breaking the established mold on offense is not his strong suit.

 

[Mondio]

considering McCarthy has led an offense to a top 5 or better scoring ranking in 7 out of the 11 years he's been here, I'm going to defer to him when it comes to what personnel should be on the field

and we've only been outside top 10 in yards 2 times in 11 seasons. I think he gets it

 

[Poppa San]

the league average was 51.62% of the time teams used 11 personnel and the Packers were at 84%.

No wonder the Packers offense is so much better. They play with 11 on the field more often. Almost half the time the rest of the league plays shorthanded!

 

[BrokenArrow]

Pretty tough question to answer. Maybe MM prefers to have his outside receivers off the LOS to help in getting off press? That's a total shot in the dark, but it's the only theory that occurs to me.

That's pretty much what I was going to say. Green Bay's passing game is all timing. By putting the slot receiver on the LOS it frees up the wideouts to play off the LOS making it much easier to avoid jams. It actually makes perfect sense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Doesn't McCarthy have a coach show on television?

Yeah, the Mike McCarthy show runs weekly during the season.

 

[jakemillar]

It's McCarthy, there was probably a way that this alignment helped against defenses some years ago and he got used to it and once McCarthy is used to something, he'll stick with it no matter what. We all know that the Packers like to use 11 personnel more than any team in the NFL; occasionally this has actually reached the realm of the ridiculous (I think it was 2013 where the league average was 51.62% of the time teams used 11 personnel and the Packers were at 84%....third place were Giants at 70%). McCarthy is great at player development but breaking the established mold on offense is not his strong suit.

I have found the recent correlations between McAdoo's offense and McCarthy's offense to interesting, for obvious reasons. Both love 11 personnel so much. I actually read that the Giants, over the first 4 weeks, ran 100% of their pass plays from 11 personnel. Essentially saying that if they're in any other formation, don't bother playing the pass.

I thought McCarthy was much more multiple this year. They were actually 1 of only 2 teams (Denver) to play a true 5WR personnel, or "00".

I'd add that this also allows the outside reciever to go in motion, which helps get more favorable matchups and tip the coverage better than the slot receivers motioning across the formation.

If it were any other team, especially New England and Detroit who do this often to get stack releases for their WRs, I would agree. But the Packers rarely, maybe a handful of plays out of the last 3 years, have motioned the outside receivers in/across this formation. The one exception I recall was in the Rodgers double Hail-Mary playoff loss in Arizona, he motioned Richard Rodgers in to the wing from the middle slot because AZ was overload blitzing and Rodgers saw it coming. There may be a few other occasions, but I don't think this is the reason Green Bay does it. McCarthy places this formation out there and runs it statically, and has for the last 10 years.

Also, to rebute the point about it's easier to use this formation when running the "tunnel" screen or "jailbreak" screen to the outside receiver, which it is & would make total sense, Green Bay is 29th in the NFL in outside screen %. They rarely throw the designed screen to the outside receiver. What they DO run, is in the same formation, 3x1 with the inside slot ON the LOS, they will run whoever is the inside slot quick to the flat, while the outside 2 receivers "rub" or block the guys in front of them. One might refer to this as the "Cobb route", as he's exceptional at catching the quick flat route and making things happen. Good example of this play was when Josh Norman forced the fumble on Jared Cook in the Washington game, it was this exact play. Another illustration of McCarthy running his scheme regardless of what personnel is in what positions on the field.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Well i don't belive there is just "one reason" MM does this. To dig further the Packers use there receivers universally so I suppose that plays into it somewhat with always doing it. If they just lined up that way on certain plays it would tip the defense off to what's coming.

MM also likes to run WR screens where having the outside guy off the line gives him more room to make a move and allows the slot receiver the quickest path to kick out and block.

Papasan mentioned the slot up and the outside back, so that the outside guys don't misjudge the Los, and end up off sides... that makes good sense to me...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There may be a few other occasions, but I don't think this is the reason Green Bay does it. McCarthy places this formation out there and runs it statically, and has for the last 10 years.

Another illustration of McCarthy running his scheme regardless of what personnel is in what positions on the field.

I think you undervalue the great job McCarthy has done as the team's play caller for most of his tenure.

 

[jakemillar]

I think you undervalue the great job McCarthy has done as the team's play caller for most of his tenure.

I feel you are taking my comment above slightly out of context. McCarthy's consistency in running his system is a compromise. There's something to be said about the simplicity of an offense and the players within it all knowing what to do. Very rarely is a team able to have all the game day active skill position players on offense be able to comfortably interchange between the Z, X, Y, and W receiver spots and not make mental mistakes, and McCarthy's system does that. This is a huge plus for the players who play for Green Bay.

I had heard Aaron Rodgers mention in his interview from last summer with Bill Simmons that one thing he loved about Peyton Manning was his approach to being able to use and/or stay in the same personnel groupings/formations, but run their entire offense through those personnel sets, or run them with tempo to where the defense can't keep up, or get caught guessing on one play that looks the same as a previous play but is different.

The other side of this is the fact that, and I know I'm not the first to address this, is that a lot of what you see on a week to week basis is repetitive, and teams catch on. Isolation routes relying on a WR corps who lack speed to try and separate is a staple of this offense as well. IMO, the greatness that is Aaron Rodgers has made McCarthy able to get away with this because his ability to make spectacular throws either on time in the confines of the play call, or to buy time and create if the play breaks down. Look no further than Eli Manning and the struggles that the New York offense had this season. I can almost guarantee Eli & Aaron could switch places and run the others offense without skipping a beat, same verbiage and everything. But where Aaron makes Green Bays offense flourish is his ability to create when a stagnant "slant-flat" combo is called 13 times per game, and the defense is onto it.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

IMO, the greatness that is Aaron Rodgers has made McCarthy able to get away with this because his ability to make spectacular throws either on time in the confines of the play call, or to buy time and create if the play breaks down. But where Aaron makes Green Bays offense flourish is his ability to create when a stagnant "slant-flat" combo is called 13 times per game, and the defense is onto it.

There's absolutely no doubt Rodgers is the main reason the Packers offense has been great for most of his tenure as the team's starting quarterback but McCarthy deserves huge credit for developing him into an elite player.

 

[SeahawkFan80]

Agree with poppasan, it is probably the easiest set to put covering the tackle for the lack of a penalty for illegal formation. The simpler the better and easier to not mess up. One of the largest pieces of your guys games is the true lack of penalties. Keeps your team in scoring position a lot more often.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Agree with poppasan, it is probably the easiest set to put covering the tackle for the lack of a penalty for illegal formation. The simpler the better and easier to not mess up. One of the largest pieces of your guys games is the true lack of penalties. Keeps your team in scoring position a lot more often.

I have a hard time believing that not being called for illegal formation is one of the reasons for McCarthy using a different scheme as there were only a total of 66 such penalties called in the entire league last season.

 

[Sanguine camper]

The Packers love the quick slant to the wr and do it as well as anybody. Putting the slot man on the LOS gets him out of the throwing lane quicker. I bet the Packers audible the slant play and need that open throwing lane to be open on nearly every play. That is why I think they love to line their slot receiver at the LOS and relatively close to the tackle to make sure the slant is open. If the defense is right, the Packers will also slant to the slot man but that seems less frequent.