Packers' defensive line looks to rise to another level

[News Bot]

Addition of Muhammad Wilkerson makes a solid unit stronger

Source: Packers.com

 

[Poppa San]

Dang, I hope they stay healthy. Seems Packers go from strength before camp to a MASH unit by the bye week at one position or another.

 

[Mondio]

Dang, I hope they stay healthy. Seems Packers go from strength before camp to a MASH unit by the bye week at one position or another.

exactly what I was thinking.

 

[AmishMafia]

Could be the best DL the packers have put together since the days of Reggie, Gilbert and Sean. Excited to see what the do this year.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Daniels/Clark/Wilkerson are top tier guys imo. The depth has potential too imo. Montravius Adams was one I was very optimistic about. The foot stress fracture derailed his rookie year. But before the foot he was getting good reports. After he healed he seemed to be producing good for a rookie on a rebound.
Then the taller leaner lowry should be making more plays now that he has some bruisers to soften up and tire out the oline.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Montravius Adams was one I was very optimistic about. The foot stress fracture derailed his rookie year. But before the foot he was getting good reports. After he healed he seemed to be producing good for a rookie on a rebound.

Adams played a total of 65 defensive snaps last season, therefore it's way too early to make a fair assessment of his potential.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I would really like to add Hankins off FA. I think he would help keep us fresh and attacking every down. Or I don't know if he's officially retired as of yet, Wilfork would probably be a great vet minimum signing that could wear down opponents early in the 1st half, then unleash a fresh Daniels in the 2nd half (I'd still let him start).

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I would really like to add Hankins off FA. I think he would help keep us fresh and attacking every down. Or I don't know if he's officially retired as of yet, Wilfork would probably be a great vet minimum signing that could wear down opponents early in the 1st half, then unleash a fresh Daniels in the 2nd half (I'd still let him start).

Hankins might be a decent option for a team in need of a veteran defensive lineman but I don't see the Packers adding another player at the position. Wilfork is done.

 

[El Guapo]

I remember a few years ago that most, including myself, thought that the DBs would be a strength and then injuries upended everything.

A strong DL is in the forecast but I'm most interested in seeing how Petine works with what he's got.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I like Pettine's philosophy on starting with the DL. Their performance can turn our inexperienced secondary into what looks like Pro Bowlers on paper. I can't remember the last SB Champion that didn't have a fierce DL.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I remember a few years ago that most, including myself, thought that the DBs would be a strength and then injuries upended everything.

The Packers have quality depth on the defensive line. With the team most likely only keeping five or six players at the position there's no reason to add another one at this point.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Adams played a total of 65 defensive snaps last season, therefore it's way too early to make a fair assessment of his potential.

22 years old. 6'4" 304. 29" vert. 4.87-40.
This is what Greenbay needs. He will do well I'm guessing

 

[Packer Brother]

I mean at some point shouldn't the Training staff be...fired? Like, they have one job. It's obvious they can't do it...

Btw, I am not a MM hater like some have claimed. I just call what I see.personally, I think it's time for new blood ( Pending they don't reach the SB this season).

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

The Packers have quality depth on the defensive line. With the team most likely only keeping five or six players at the position there's no reason to add another one at this point.

Keeping 5 or 6?
This isn't Thompson/capers defense anymore. We will keep more.

And the olbs/ilbs will be less than before.

 

[Poppa San]

22 years old. 6'4" 304. 29" vert. 4.87-40.
This is what Greenbay needs. He will do well I'm guessing

6'.4" 305, 2.9" vert, 48.7-40? except for age those are MY stats.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

22 years old. 6'4" 304. 29" vert. 4.87-40.
This is what Greenbay needs. He will do well I'm guessing

Adams' measureables don't guarantee him being able to contribute in a significant way.

Keeping 5 or 6?
This isn't Thompson/capers defense anymore. We will keep more.

I highly doubt the Packers will keep more than six defensive linemen.

 

[mradtke66]

Keeping 5 or 6?
This isn't Thompson/capers defense anymore. We will keep more.

And the olbs/ilbs will be less than before.

It depends entirely on the scheme. 3-4 linemen would be defensive tackles in a 4-3. Ergo, how man DTs do you think are kept on a typical 4-3 team?

If we switched to a 4-3, yes, we would have more "linemen" on our roster. But Perry would be one of the starting DEs. Possibly Matthews as well (though he'd be most likely used like Von Doom. 1st down SOLB, nickel end).

Again, "typical" roster compositions are for a 4-3:

4 DTs. With our Roster, that'd be easy. Daniels and Clark are your starters. Adams a backup, Mo a slide-in, nickel rusher.

4-5 DEs: Perry, Mo, Dean Lowry, Odom maybe?, and Matthews as a nickel rusher. Perry starts on the weak side, Mo the strong side in base. Dean backs up strong side in base.

So there you go. 7 of of the 8-9 linemen you'd carry.

In nickel/dime, Matthews at Perry at the ends, 2 of Clark, Daniels, and Mo at DT.

So there you go. 7 of of the 8-9 linemen you'd carry. Not counting Matthews as lineman in this approach, though you could probably get away with 4 "pure" DEs assuming that Matthews would take a lot of the snaps at DE in passing situations.

 

[PikeBadger]

Backup linebackers play special teams. That is one of the extra advantages of playing a 3-4 defense.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

It depends entirely on the scheme. 3-4 linemen would be defensive tackles in a 4-3. Ergo, how man DTs do you think are kept on a typical 4-3 team?

If we switched to a 4-3, yes, we would have more "linemen" on our roster. But Perry would be one of the starting DEs. Possibly Matthews as well (though he'd be most likely used like Von Doom. 1st down SOLB, nickel end).

Again, "typical" roster compositions are for a 4-3:

4 DTs. With our Roster, that'd be easy. Daniels and Clark are your starters. Adams a backup, Mo a slide-in, nickel rusher.

4-5 DEs: Perry, Mo, Dean Lowry, Odom maybe?, and Matthews as a nickel rusher. Perry starts on the weak side, Mo the strong side in base. Dean backs up strong side in base.

So there you go. 7 of of the 8-9 linemen you'd carry.

In nickel/dime, Matthews at Perry at the ends, 2 of Clark, Daniels, and Mo at DT.

So there you go. 7 of of the 8-9 linemen you'd carry. Not counting Matthews as lineman in this approach, though you could probably get away with 4 "pure" DEs assuming that Matthews would take a lot of the snaps at DE in passing situations.

I always enjoy your insights. Thanks.

I don't really see our defense as a 4-3 at all.
What I think we are seeing is a similar scheme as before only simplified. With much different personal. Where Capers and Thompson put a huge premium (and cap $) on Olbs. Petinne and Gute put the value into dominant dline...

Also. Another fundamental shift was how the secondary was built. Typically Randall/Rollins was our proto type. Under 6', and under 200 pounds, but still only ran 4.5s. CBs who supposedly could stay on their guy, and recover with agility rather than speed...... gag........ Now we have 6'1, 6'2", even king stud at 6'3" running 4.4 40s and wingspan that shuts out half the dang field... almost. that's what we need. A stop rather than this bend but don't break strategy...

This is a matter of fielding your best players. And now that those guys include big mo dog instead of peppers. A secondary who can tackle, as well as man up on big wrs. That's where the pressure will come from now, imo. Dline Power... 320 de against 320 OT. And such. Instead of 260 olb against 320 OT. Quit depending on finesse and speed, and come with the bruisers to do what they do...

Same is said about the 6'3", 6'4", 6'5" wrs running sub 4.4s.... who's idea was it to cover these guys with finesse? Lol. Burress should have taught us this lesson a decade + ago.... you need to be able to stop those super freak wrs without selling out the whole defense......

I see much more 3-3-5 nickel formations. With tweener backers in place for a "dime".

There is a reason the LB coach and Mathews have both had their moments of public displeasure... because they have 2 olbs making 25 mil, and other than those two, the LB positions are being largely looked past. Martinez in the middle is hard to bench for a tweener. Makes Mathews expendable imo. Because weather we drop a olb or ilb to bring in a dime, it doesn't really make a huge difference. Because the bulk of the pass rush is already determined by the 4 studs up front. Perry is included in this group. Mathews or Martinez are only coming when a big dog goes out , or a designed blitz. Right now Martinez is a tackling machine....

 

[mradtke66]

I always enjoy your insights. Thanks.

I don't really see our defense as a 4-3 at all.
What I think we are seeing is a similar scheme as before only simplified. With much different personal. Where Capers and Thompson put a huge premium (and cap $) on Olbs. Petinne and Gute put the value into dominant dline...

I'm not so sure. You have to understand that the only difference between a 3-4 and a 4-3 under front is right-side EDGE player. He's the same guy with approximately the same build in both schemes. In 4-3 under, he puts his hand in the dirt and we have him "weak-side defensive end" or "LEO" or "Elephant." In a 3-4, he's in a two point and we call him "ROLB" or "weak-side OLB."

It's hard to predict exactly what Pettine will do. He's typically not used traditional EDGE players, but then he's not *had* good, typical EDGE players.

Presuming the starting 3 linemen are Mo, Clark, and Daniels, I wouldn't be surprised if looks more or less just like a 4-3, with Perry as the rush end, Matthews as the SOLB (left side).

I see much more 3-3-5 nickel formations. With tweener backers in place for a "dime".

You could be on to something, at least slightly.

There are two reasons we played the nickel front we did and the first is still true today: Matthews and Perry are two of the best pass rushers we have. Ergo, you want them on them on the field as much as possible

The second reason we haven't used a larger body at left EDGE is we haven't had that guy. That's not lack or priority, it's that those guys are rare. If you're 300 pounds big, you're probably slow, so you have limited utility on the EDGE. Datone was supposed to be that guy. We've tried to find such a guy, but it's *HARD* to find that guy. We lucked out getting Mo, so we'll probably use him more.

So, we have Mo. In base, I expect him to be used more like a true EDGE player, Matthews as a strong-side OLB. Mo, Clark, Daniels, and Perry being the primary, most of the time rushers. Mo can be run *around,* he's not really fast enough for outside contain, but in Base, Matthews can handle that job--or whoever the OLB is to that side.

On big nickel downs, say 1st and 10, 3WR and 2 backs, I could see a 3-3 nickel. Same front as base, Mo, Clark, Daniels, and Perry. The two off the ball linebackers to be determined by game plan--down and distance, personnel, whatever. Maybe it's Burks and Martinez most of the time and not Matthews. Who knows? This is slightly risky, as now sweeps to Mo's side aren't optimally defended.

On traditional passing downs, say 2nd and 10, I'd still stick with what we ran last year--Perry and Matthews at the end and two of Clark/Daniels/Mo. Those are the best pass rushers, so on obvious passing downs, that's who you want out there.

 

[mradtke66]

That's where the pressure will come from now, imo. Dline Power... 320 de against 320 OT. And such. Instead of 260 olb against 320 OT. Quit depending on finesse and speed, and come with the bruisers to do what they do...

I really think you under-estimate or don't understand just how important speed and quickness is to generating pressure on the edge.

The first thing to understand is that there is no perfect answer to anything. For every tactic the offense of defense employs, the other side has a counter for it.

Looking at the outside rusher vs. the offensive tackle. Ignoring counter moves and stunts, a 1 to 1 attack on a passing play, the EDGE player has 3 ways to attack the OT: around, inside, and through. The best pass rushers can do all three.

Through the OT (bullrush) requires lots of strength. Typically the guys who can do this well are larger, because they're lifting weights. This is where Perry makes hay, though Matthews has been historically acceptable at it.

Inside requires quickness more than anything, some strength, and honestly, luck. Being good here has more to do with technique that physical attributes. You need a good first step, good hands, and just doing things right. And it's where moves like swims and rips come into play.

Outside probably requires the most physical attributes, but it's not just speed. Let's break down what you need out there to win on the edge.

1. Quickness. You're trying to beat the OT out of his stance. That should gain you half a tick.

2. Speed. You want to get out to/past his outside shoulder asap. If you can't get there, a decent OT will be able to get in your way and slow you down or ride you out past the play. He isn't "winning" in the macho, knock you on your butt way, but in the "you didn't even really threaten my QB" kind of way.

3. Flexibility. This is what Matthews has typically excelled at, though he doesn't quite as awesome as he used to. Once you get to the outside shoulder, you've won the position, now do something with it. Dip your shoulder, bend, and somehow, execute a 162.443 degree (the angle is critical here ) turn, don't lose any speed, and seal the deal. If you can't do this, again, a OT will be able to just drive you past the play and you are neutralized.

This is why EDGE rushers are small (heh. Right. Because 260 pound OLBs are small. Yeah right.) They're giving up some weight to gain speed. And this is key, *not necessarily giving up size.* Size is not an immediate advantage for a pass rusher. You want speed, because even once you win against you man, you need to finish the job and run down the QB. Size *is* an asset in the running game, because now the RB has to run around you.

But now let's come back to the counter topic. The other reason EDGE players are smaller is they need to do all three. The counter that exists is forcing the OT to defend against all three attacks at all times:

1. If the OT oversets to defend against the speed rush, you rip and rush inside. You know exactly what this looks like, because that's exactly how Spriggs got beat early last year.

2. If the OT is flat flooted or slow/lazy with his kick step, kick it into high gear and go around him. Hopefully, you worry him enough with your speed, you cause condition number 1 (the overset.)

3. If the OT is late into his pass set or he's not got the best balance because he's trying to guess if you're going to go wide or inside, that's when you plant your face mask and bull rush him into the QBs lap. Matthews is plenty big and strong enough for this, because, well, he's still stupid strong and he has great leverage and technique. Perry is stronger, so he can "slop" into a good bullrush easier.

So what's the point?

If you don't have one of those three, you've made the OT's job sooooo much easier. If you trot out Mo at EDGE on 3rd down, for example, the OT can almost completely ignore the outside rush--he doesn't quite have the quick to get there. Adjust your stance/spacing slightly to give yourself an advantage before the ball is even snapped. Protect against the inside rush first, bull rush second, and if I feel like, maybe the outside rush. You might gain leverage and win out of the blocks, but I'll ride you past the play. If you still beat me to the point, he won't be able to turn fast enough. So again, no actual harm to the QB or the play.

We have seen other examples of this. KGB was a great speed rusher. But because he didn't really have a good inside rush, he made the OT's job easier.

Ditto Perry. Great bullrusher, not the best bender (at least on the left side) and he struggled to get sacks. Put him on the right side, suddenly muscle memory takes over, and he can get some of the around the corner sacks.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Martinez in the middle is hard to bench for a tweener. Makes Mathews expendable imo. Because weather we drop a olb or ilb to bring in a dime, it doesn't really make a huge difference. Because the bulk of the pass rush is already determined by the 4 studs up front. Perry is included in this group. Mathews or Martinez are only coming when a big dog goes out , or a designed blitz. Right now Martinez is a tackling machine....

Matthews is still one of the two best edge rushers on the roster therefore it wouldn't make any sense to bench him. With Martinez playing a different position he doesn't make Clay expendable.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Matthews is still one of the two best edge rushers on the roster therefore it wouldn't make any sense to bench him. With Martinez playing a different position he doesn't make Clay expendable.

I'm just saying there won't be a need for two edge rushers with 3 Dlinemen and Perry.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I really think you under-estimate or don't understand just how important speed and quickness is to generating pressure on the edge.

The first thing to understand is that there is no perfect answer to anything. For every tactic the offense of defense employs, the other side has a counter for it.

Looking at the outside rusher vs. the offensive tackle. Ignoring counter moves and stunts, a 1 to 1 attack on a passing play, the EDGE player has 3 ways to attack the OT: around, inside, and through. The best pass rushers can do all three.

Through the OT (bullrush) requires lots of strength. Typically the guys who can do this well are larger, because they're lifting weights. This is where Perry makes hay, though Matthews has been historically acceptable at it.

Inside requires quickness more than anything, some strength, and honestly, luck. Being good here has more to do with technique that physical attributes. You need a good first step, good hands, and just doing things right. And it's where moves like swims and rips come into play.

Outside probably requires the most physical attributes, but it's not just speed. Let's break down what you need out there to win on the edge.

1. Quickness. You're trying to beat the OT out of his stance. That should gain you half a tick.

2. Speed. You want to get out to/past his outside shoulder asap. If you can't get there, a decent OT will be able to get in your way and slow you down or ride you out past the play. He isn't "winning" in the macho, knock you on your butt way, but in the "you didn't even really threaten my QB" kind of way.

3. Flexibility. This is what Matthews has typically excelled at, though he doesn't quite as awesome as he used to. Once you get to the outside shoulder, you've won the position, now do something with it. Dip your shoulder, bend, and somehow, execute a 162.443 degree (the angle is critical here ) turn, don't lose any speed, and seal the deal. If you can't do this, again, a OT will be able to just drive you past the play and you are neutralized.

This is why EDGE rushers are small (heh. Right. Because 260 pound OLBs are small. Yeah right.) They're giving up some weight to gain speed. And this is key, *not necessarily giving up size.* Size is not an immediate advantage for a pass rusher. You want speed, because even once you win against you man, you need to finish the job and run down the QB. Size *is* an asset in the running game, because now the RB has to run around you.

But now let's come back to the counter topic. The other reason EDGE players are smaller is they need to do all three. The counter that exists is forcing the OT to defend against all three attacks at all times:

1. If the OT oversets to defend against the speed rush, you rip and rush inside. You know exactly what this looks like, because that's exactly how Spriggs got beat early last year.

2. If the OT is flat flooted or slow/lazy with his kick step, kick it into high gear and go around him. Hopefully, you worry him enough with your speed, you cause condition number 1 (the overset.)

3. If the OT is late into his pass set or he's not got the best balance because he's trying to guess if you're going to go wide or inside, that's when you plant your face mask and bull rush him into the QBs lap. Matthews is plenty big and strong enough for this, because, well, he's still stupid strong and he has great leverage and technique. Perry is stronger, so he can "slop" into a good bullrush easier.

So what's the point?

If you don't have one of those three, you've made the OT's job sooooo much easier. If you trot out Mo at EDGE on 3rd down, for example, the OT can almost completely ignore the outside rush--he doesn't quite have the quick to get there. Adjust your stance/spacing slightly to give yourself an advantage before the ball is even snapped. Protect against the inside rush first, bull rush second, and if I feel like, maybe the outside rush. You might gain leverage and win out of the blocks, but I'll ride you past the play. If you still beat me to the point, he won't be able to turn fast enough. So again, no actual harm to the QB or the play.

We have seen other examples of this. KGB was a great speed rusher. But because he didn't really have a good inside rush, he made the OT's job easier.

Ditto Perry. Great bullrusher, not the best bender (at least on the left side) and he struggled to get sacks. Put him on the right side, suddenly muscle memory takes over, and he can get some of the around the corner sacks.

What I want to see is mo, Clark, Daniels, Perry getting push. It stuffs the run. It collapses the pocket. And it causes mistakes... they might be more team sacks than a 1 on 1 sack master. But that's what I have always wanted to see...

And even if its some what of a one trick pony. This trick will work. We will always get a push. We will always disrupt the run and cause mistakes with those four studs up front.

One thing that has to be done to allow for the big dogs' lack of speed. Is big fast secondary who can tackle, and a ilb who is sideline to sideline. Check and check.

The speed rusher does have certain characteristics that are valuable, that I apparently don't value enough according to the lb gurus. But selling out to rush Mathews all the time at 255 with a #60 disadvantage to the OT. Seems to not value the power that guys like mo and Clark and Daniels, bring to the table, enough...

I have mocked DL in probably 8 out of the last 10 first round picks for the packers. Lol. We get Clark, we let Guion go. We draft Adams, and let like 3 playable Dlinemen walk. Lol. It's like one step forward and two steps back. Until pettine brought in mo ,and prepared a can of whoopass like captain insaino. NFL beware.......

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Mama said Mo dog is so angry because he has all them teeth, and no tooth brush...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm just saying there won't be a need for two edge rushers with 3 Dlinemen and Perry.

The Packers definitely need two pass rushers capable of putting pressure on quarterbacks from the edge. Otherwise the opposing offensive line will have no issues keeping the pocket clean at all.