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Packers biggest need

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ivo610, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. realcaliforniacheese

    realcaliforniacheese A-Rods Boss

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    To maintain good skills and technique in any discipline requires constant practice and improvement. You cannot practice and correct tackling issues, angles, positioning..... during the game. It requires full speed padded tackling in practice and that has been severely limited.

    I don't aree that the change in hitting practices it the best thing. Poor hitting can cause injury. Right now what you see happening is because ref's are so quickly calling helmet to helmet, even when a guy makes a textbook hit to the chest and his head slides up while the other guys head goes down. Defenders are starting to lower there heads before tackling and this is going to start leading to some bigger issues.

    I agree with not using the helmet as a weapon and launching. I also think if they were so concerned about injury they would protect defensive players from cut blocks.
     
  2. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    If there's a talented DL with pass rush ability available at pick 26 I expect Thompson to grab him. Yes, they have youngsters who may develop in Daniels and Worthy - and maybe Neal will continue to improve - but I don't think Thompson would pass up a DL they have graded high. They also need a replacement for Pickett - a 320 pound plus run stopper.

    I too would have loved to have watched Perry for an entire season. I saw some progress before he went on IR and I think he has the physical requirements to play LOLB in the 3-4. Moses has some potential but I think we saw Walden's ceiling and IMO that's as a backup OLB/STs player. Zombo certainly shouldn't be counted upon.

    Here are the specifics of Hawk's contract from rotoworld.com. They have him signing a 5-year contract with an $8M signing bonus in 2011. Cap-wise that's "only" $1.6M per year. His base salary is $4.9M for the next three seasons with a roster bonus of $300K, $300K and $800K in 2015, the last year of his contract. If the Packers wanted to waive him before the 2013 season, the cap hit would be $4.8M ($1.6M prorated signing bonus times three seasons through 2015) However, if they keep him this year, they will pay him $4.9M in salary, a $300K roster bonus plus a $250K workout bonus. So if rotoworld is correct if they waive him, his contract is a $4.8M cap hit. If they don't, he'll count $5.45M against the cap. So it's cost effective to waive him now. But here's the rub: The Packers organization like him onehellofalot more than most Packers fans. Bishop was sorely missed and Smith is a good backup. The "wild card" who may be factoring into to their decisions at ILB more than we know is Terrell Manning. I hope (and believe) he's got the athleticism we're looking for but he's got to get on the field and show us.

    IMO by far the biggest need in the secondary is a safety opposite Burnett. Yes, the loss of Collins was HUGE. He combined the speed and coverage ability of a CB with the size and striking ability of a safety. And he was a ball hawk. He became a very special player and was a HUGE loss. But to whomever posted about the difference in the D with the loss of Collins and Jenkins, I would also add the loss of the 2010 version of Charles Woodson. Charles isn't immune to the aging process and it's showing. So the Packers D has gone from four difference-makers on D (Woodson, Mathews, Collins & Jenkins) to one. Thompson found Collins at the top of the second round. It's extremely unlikely he can find another but a big upgrade at safety opposite Burnett would be a big improvement. I'd love to see MD Jennings and McMilliam get better but I wouldn't count on it. Perhaps they see Sean Richardson seriously challenging for that spot - he's certainly got the size. I'm fine with the group of Williams, Shields, Hayward, and House at CB. And they apparently like the 6 foot James Nixon - former PS'er - too. BTW, I expect Williams (shoulder) to be healthier with another year removed from his injury. Even if he isn't I expect Hayward to be a starting quality NFL CB next season and I wouldn't be surprised if House is too. And I think Shields is above average.

    I'm hoping for an O lineman in the first three rounds. Even if you think they're OK I think everyone would advocate an upgrade in depth. Here's what McGinn had to say about the OL in the game at SF (which received the highest rating of any position group):
    He also noted that Lang held up just fine against the muscular Justin Smith. I don't think the problem with the OL is in the interior but they need depth there. IMO Barclay did well for a UDFA but they grade on a curve in the NFL. He was pretty good run blocking and he did get better the more he played, but I don't think he can be counted upon to start at RT for an entire season. If they don't spend a high pick on OT we have to hope Newhouse gets better (if he would "just" finish blocks, both in the passing and running game, he'd elevate his game significantly IMO) or hope Sherrod can play like a first round pick at LT. And we have to hope to see the Bulaga of 2010 and 2011 and not last season. My guess is we'll be doing a lot of hoping because there's no easy fix for OT unless they're already on the roster.


    Driver better be gone - he should have been before this year. G Jennings is certainly gone so I would not be surprised to see a speedy, defense-stretching WR picked early in the draft. TE depends on the return of Finley, how they forecast the health of Quarless, and development of Taylor and Williams. IMO Finley can't be traded because of the salary he's owed in 2013. And if he's willing to do a reasonable deal, it'll be with the Packers.

    IMO Harris is the answer at RB. He gets more than what is blocked on almost every play. Unless there's a RB that is clearly in the talent tier above where they're drafting I don't expect one taken early. Benson may return while Grant won't. And they may think they're OK with Green, Starks and Saine battling for the backup spot. I hope they bring in another FB. I'd love to see one who could blow up LBs better than Kuhn and still be able to catch the ball out of the backfield and pick up a blitz. A lot to ask for, I know.

    So in the first three rounds of the draft I expect to see a lineman on either side of the ball, a WR or TE (who excels in the passing game), or a DB who can start at safety or play the kind of role Woodson did. If a DL or LB is picked early I'm hoping for pass rush ability. A pass rushing compliment to Matthews would make everyone else look better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Are you familiar with Purdue university's research on concussions, hits to the head and the number of blows before it is considered extremely dangerous?

    I won't bother arguing that tackling thing. But it's a basic football technique that at that level is not forgotten or sloppy bc they don't practice it enough.
     
  4. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    I doubt there will be a DL with pass rush ability to slide that far, but you never know. We thought that was what we were getting from Jerel Worthy, who many experts had going in that 20-25 range.
    Here's the good and bad about Mike Neal. He was a surprise this year, was our best DL getting penetration.
    But the bad thing is odds are he won't stay as healthy next year. Now hopefully I am wrong, and he's shed the injury-proneness, but I'd not bank on that.
    I love Pickett so much, but it just seems that he can't move anymore.

    Agree with all of that. I believe in Perry. I think he's a great bookend going forward. It's only depth that's needed, and I think Moses is a nice bench OLB. Walden & Zombo offer nothing other than warm bodies. And Zombo, usually that body is in the training room.

    I like Hawk and have defended him. But he too is just a guy. He's not a run stuffer. He gets stuck on blocks too often. Where was he when Peterson was running for 200 a game on us? When Gore was gouging us for 100? When Kaepernick was running wild?
    Not only that, but unlike guys like Urlacher, he doesn't ever make any big plays. No interceptions, no big hit fumbles, no strip sacks, no strip tackles, etc. We've been waiting..... the contract is one of the worst on our team IMO. Bishop is very underrated and we missed him tremendously.

    I Was excited about T-Manning, but who knows now if he'll become a good one, or a forgotten name.

    Nick Collins was our Ed Reed, just entering his prime. He was so underrated nationally, and even by Packer fans. I'm still bitter as hell at the "football God" for this one. Nick was clean. He didn't head-hunt like Dashon Goldson. He didn't ACL-hunt like Goldson & Louis Delmas. He just had a fat *** try and jump over him, and .... bullschit career over. You can't replace a star like that. It's a dropoff. I think Jerron McMillian has the best chance of becoming a solid starter for us back there. I like his measurables. I like his strength, speed, size. We'll see.
    The CB's are fine, but they're all very soft, frightened tacklers, not intimidators by any stretch of the imagination. It sure would be nice to have some physicality back there.

    Our OL finished pretty well. And that was with our ONLY TWO first round picks on the OL out on IR. We could get em both back. We could get none of them back. Who knows. It's more BS bad luck either way, but perhaps they will rehab back to as good-as-new.
    Lang-EDS-Sitton are a fine nucleus of Interior OL. A bit of nasty there, which we need. Which we need on defense as well. But don't have.

    I don't see anything close to special at TE. I do like Finley, but I don't love him. I don't see the same skills that he showed in 2009. Not sure if the knee issues slowed him down. I love his effort. I think fans are too hard on him. But I just see an average talent now in the NFL. I can find about 15 better TEs for sure. He shouldn't get a gigantic contract.
    I don't like Crabtree too much, but as long as he's cheap.... still waiting on DJ Williams. Ryan Taylor, not sure if he offers anything other than special teams. Clearly this is why many mocks have us taking the Stanford TE in round one, or the Notre Dame TE if he's there.

    I agree.
    DuJuan Harris IS THE ANSWER. GO with him.
    Until he gets hurt. Which he will. Because he's a Packer. And all Packer RB's get hurt. All of them.
    Who to pair him with? Benson again? Nobody wanted Benson a year ago. Now after breaking down, it will be the same story. So we can bring him back cheap, again.
    Alex Green? We liked him. He was the guy.... until the knee started to break down again. I think they expect him to take a step up next year. Those 3 would be enough because you don't keep 4 anymore.
    James Starks? Probably he only sticks around past the end of Training Camp if one of the other 3 guys breaks down that soon. Which is possible with our luck.
    That's why I don't want to see a RB drafted, high especially. I like DuJuan Harris. He's got skills. More skills than we know. We should have used him more in the SF game, but some suspect (McCarthy denies) that he was knocked concussed a bit by the cheap shot by Dashon Goldson.
    I would hate to see us take a WR that high.
    I like the 2 waiting in the wings already, Jarrett Boykin and Jeremy Ross.
    Keep Jordy, Jones, Cobb. Extend Jones soon. Jennings a distant memory, sorry & goodbye.
    While some might try and emulate the Pistol offense with the fast running QB, I would prefer to emulate New England. They're about to make their 6th Super Bowl in 12 years under Brady. I believe Rodgers is just as good as Brady is, and that our WR's are better. So is Matthews.
    I wouldn't mind getting 2 beast matchup TE's like they have.
    They also seem to run better, and more often.

    With Matthews & Raji, that's a nice start. We need Perry to blossom. Bishop back.
    Burnett to develop.
    The CB's need to get tougher. We need a 2nd good ILBer next to Bishop. We could have stolen Vontaze Burfict last year. That was a gift. Don't care that he's mean. We need that.

    I think McCarthy is good, smart. Maybe a bit too stubborn though. Does he need to replace Capers, or can Capers take this defense from a weakness to a strength? He gets paid BIG BUCKS as a DC, to do this. He's not doing it. Is it the players TT is giving him? Or is it him? This is the key question. Must solve it.
     
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  5. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    I am fully confident we will not grab another nickel DL in the top rounds. This is a good year for 34 fat men according to Miller, so we may see a pick or two there.

    If Moses can add some strength I've heard him referred to as a "poor man's James Harrison" We could still use another force in the rotation

    Manning has shown some real thumping ability on ST, but his straight line speed... We have a definite need for speed at the ILB position. Give Kaep some credit though, he's not one of those guys you can just "catch up to"

    McMillian will probably jump Jennings on the depth chart this offseason. Still need a good FS. Burnett actually does better the farther in back he is, so a low man wouldn't be unwelcome either. Our safety spot takes a lot of IQ to play, communication has been an issue because of that.

    Don't like using high picks on backup OL. Side note: on another forum they jokingly called EDS "The Bellhop." It was also pointed out that he consistently frustrated DL.

    Agreed on TE. Like Fin. Like Crabby. Don't like Q. Disappointed in Williams. Taylor is our next FB. Need another "Top Gun" there.

    Harris can be the answer with some help. He needs an enforcer backing him up to block and scrub out the dirty yards. Green is fine for the third guy.

    Like Boykin and Ross, but if we can get a guy who immediately unseats them and has KR ability I say do it. It's not something we "need" to do, but it might be beneficial. Let Ross take a year on PS.

    Burfict needed Zimmer like VD needed Singletary. Without either of those guys neither would be remotely the player they are today. I repeat, I believe they would have failed miserably in our system. Burfict is basically Hawk 2.0 anyway, a plodding gap/clean up man.

    This is would be the first time Capers lasted 5 yrs anywhere
     
  6. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    I don't necessarily agree that if we draft a LT they won't replace Newhouse. I know it's not TT way, but there are a few Tackles in this draft that many think could be franchise LTs. We all know Joe Thomas was a starter from the beginning... Joeckel is that guy, but we won't move to grab him and it's a shame that Lewan isn't declaring.
     
  7. Cheesehead625

    Cheesehead625 Cheesehead

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    [quote="ThxJackVainisi, post: 486157, member: 4300"]

    IMO by far the biggest need in the secondary is a safety opposite Burnett. Yes, the loss of Collins was HUGE. He combined the speed and coverage ability of a CB with the size and striking ability of a safety. And he was a ball hawk. He became a very special player and was a HUGE loss. But to whomever posted about the difference in the D with the loss of Collins and Jenkins, I would also add the loss of the 2010 version of Charles Woodson. Charles isn't immune to the aging process and it's showing. So the Packers D has gone from four difference-makers on D (Woodson, Mathews, Collins & Jenkins) to one.

    [/quote]

    I totally agree with this and if we are to draft on the defensive side of the ball, this is what we must focus on replacing. These are the special players that we are missing and haven't really tried to replace. I mean Worthy was an attempt, but we don't really know what we have with him.
     
  8. Vltrophy

    Vltrophy Cheesehead

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    I'd like to see the Packers draft another "Gilbert Brown" to work beside Raji. It took 2 men to guard Brown. We cut him b/c he got too fat. He lost some weight came back & played for a year or 2.
     
  9. Lex Luger

    Lex Luger Cheesehead

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    I dont believe safety is a huge need. Not before we fix OL and DL. Nick Collins was good, but don't for a second think he was a huge gamechanger like Ed Reed in his prime or Bob Sanders before his body fell apart.

    We need at least 1 mauler in the interior of OL. None of the guys on our roster have to raw physical strength to be a dominant guard on running plays. Thats why I think we should go after the C from Alabama. He can play any position on OL, and at 26th pick, there is a chance he will still be there.

    Second round we should go after a DL. You cant count on Pickett to be able to start next year, and Im not comfortable with talent level currently on our DL. We can't stop the run and we need to draft someone who is 6-4 - 6-5 and 320+ pounds who has the size it takes to be a proper 3-4 DE.
     
  10. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Packers had four of top 25 CBs in completion % allowed. No other team had more than two, per PFF.
     
  11. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Was the only GM out in the rain at today's Shrine Practice. SOMEONE is in trouble.
     
  12. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Saw that on twitter. But that hasn't translated to us locking down a #1 WR. It's resulted in people having career days.
     
  13. Un4GivN

    Un4GivN Cheesehead

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    The Nick Collins loss was huge, maybe more than huge. I wouldn't have pulled an Ed Reed comparison yet (more from the length of Ed's career), but definitely top 5 in the NFL. He had range and power, and was a playmaker that could tackle. His interception of Favre over Percy Harvin in Lambeau is still cemented in my head. I can tell this for sure, I haven't seen a single play out of any of our safeties that is near what Collins did time and time again.
     
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  14. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    We have two huge needs. A monster outside or inside LB(both would be nice) and a monster OT. I don't believe Perry is the answer at OLB ..plays like a defensive lineman to me ..and while Hawk had a decent season he just isn't mobile enough at ILB. We can all hope that Sherrod is the answer on the OL but I'm very skeptical of him and he is coming off a serious injury. I think as now constituted, the OL is a major hinderance to the offense being as productive as it could be.
     
  15. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    We need guys who enjoy hitting people.
    Guys who want to lay the wood, not prefer to shy away from contact.
    It's time we brought in some head-hunters on defense. Guys who want to break bones in 49ers, Seahawk, and Giant opponents.
    The Niners and Hawks have a lot of these players.
    I don't know that we have any aside from Clay & Bishop. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Einstein McFly

    Einstein McFly Cheesehead

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    Really good post. I agree with almost everything here. With Sherrod and Bulaga back and Barkley looking for a spot (maybe inside) I think our oline is okay. But as others have said, our Dline isn't really a well constructed 3-4 dline the way the 9ers is. When he shows up and can use his speed, Raji is a great NT who can dominate an all-pro like Sullivan in back to back games. He got owned on double teams though against the 9ers. Pickett is GREAT against the run and was our best run defender this year by far, but he's not a 3-4 end. It works fine to put him in there when we're playing the vikes because we know what they're going to do, but when there's more than just "stay put and close the lane" he's not built for it. When you have to read and react and chase like against Kapernick, forget it. Neal is the closest we have and he's shown some ability but again, both he and Worthy aren't really 3-4 ends, they're more like 4-3 tackles. The closest we had was Lawrence Guy but Indy picked him off of our practice squad and I guess he played pretty well for them down the stretch.

    So yeah, Margus Hunt comes to mind, and maybe Jesse Williams as a more active version of Pickett for when he inevitably gets too old.
     
  17. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Some poor GM is going to lose his job because of Hunt.
     
  18. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    We need guys who are better than the ones we got. The whole head hunting thing is as overrated by fans as the coach who only screams at his players. There are plenty of teams that have players who "lay the wood" that aren't in the playoffs. Steelers come to mind. It's more of a reputation than something measurable.
     
  19. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I agree. IMO the best situation going into next season is if Pickett and Raji playing exclusively at NT. That would limit the snaps of both and they’d be playing their best position and would free up Raji for more snaps in the two-man DL on passing downs. But that would mean finding two starting DEs. Wilson is good against the run but he’s not good enough to start IMO. I’d love to see a draftee good enough to take over one of the starting DE spots and Neal and Worthy could compete for the other. Daniels would remain a nickel/dime/ pass rushing specialist and hopefully he builds on his rookie season and gets better in that role.
     
  20. Einstein McFly

    Einstein McFly Cheesehead

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    Why's that? I can't claim to have seen many SMU games this year. I take it you have?
     
  21. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    [​IMG] Dane Brugler@dpbrugler
    More scouts than I expected, probably 50-75 scouts...Ted Thompson was the only GM I noticed, didn't see any HCs

    :poop: keeps getting real. Texas Vs Nation
     
  22. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    His seniorbowl week was a good example. People all marveled when he took the stage, but gasped for an entirely different reason when he hit the drills, and when he took the field. The guy is an athlete, not a football player. He's raw, has real potential with the right coaching, but has Bust written from sole to ear lobe because he disappears entirely too often. He's a 26 year old lump of clay at a position that generally takes time to develop with MINIMAL football experience/coaching. Definitely not what this team needs right now.
     

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