Out-Coached? Or out-GM'd?

[Deleted member 6794]

You giving up on our defense week 1 makes you look like a fool. This defense is going to be good. Brad Jones is finally out of there I'm looking for someone to keep him off the field for the rest of the year.

It's a misconception that this defense has been bad for a week, it has been terrible for the last three years. Nothing Thompson, Capers or McCarthy have done over that span has worked so forgive me if I'm skeptical about this defense being good at any point soon. Not to mention they still don't have a clue about how to stop the read option.

 

[brandon2348]

It's a misconception that this defense has been bad for a week, it has been terrible for the last three years. Nothing Thompson, Capers or McCarthy have done over that span has worked so forgive me if I'm skeptical about this defense being good at any point soon. Not to mention they still don't have a clue to stop the read option.

Sure, it has been bad. A lot of different personnel on this defense and a lot of young guys or new faces. The talent is there which I don't think has been in last few years. Give em some time.

 

[brandon2348]

Geez, just let it go. They defeated us by 20 points just a week ago, I don't care if you think they have glaring needs on the inactive list, they're the better team at the moment. Period.

I'm done with the Seahawks too. Let em "jet-sweep' Harvin right onto the "IR". That mickey mouse crap days are numbered.

 

[Forderick]

Sure, it has been bad. A lot of different personnel on this defense and a lot of young guys or new faces. The talent is there which I don't think has been in last few years. Give em some time.

Didn't we hear that last year?

 

[brandon2348]

Didn't we hear that last year?

Well I cant speak for anyone else but last year we had a huge safety problem along with an ILB problem along with injuries across the board. I didn't think our safeties were going to get better last year. They were garbage and I never liked the Burnett extension myself. I just don't see a 4-5 million dollar per year player IMO and I don't think he ever will be.

This year our secondary is loaded and deep. There are other guys there other then Burnett that IMO can be "playmakers". We still have an ILB problem but I think there are guys on the roster that can fill it. Getting Brad Jones out of there can't happen soon enough for me. Let's see what Barrington and a healthy Lattimore can do before we say "here we go again".

I wouldn't be shocked if Perry ended up at ILB either. My point is we have options. Last year we had "no reasonable options".

 

[yooperpackfan]

Sure, it has been bad. A lot of different personnel on this defense and a lot of young guys or new faces. The talent is there which I don't think has been in last few years. Give em some time.

So, young man, do you really think the defensive talent "is there", more than in the last few years?
I just don't see it, but I'm hoping you are right and I'm wrong.
I'm going to give them the WHOLE season, but if they don't make the playoffs, or they go one and done again with a poor defense.
Lookout because I'm going to be spitting nails.

 

[brandon2348]

So, young man, do you really think the defensive talent "is there", more than in the last few years?
I just don't see it, but I'm hoping you are right and I'm wrong.
I'm going to give them the WHOLE season, but if they don't make the playoffs, or they go one and done again with a poor defense.
Lookout because I'm going to be spitting nails.

Yes, the defense has more talent this year and is also healthier. The back end is in way better shape. Were gonna have some good pass rush. I'm gonna give em some time to figure out the run D and ILB situation out.

And Yes, I totally agree. If it doesn't get better Capers should be gone and IMO "nail spitting" would be appropriate.

 

[Forderick]

but why is this year the "year" capers has to get it right? Why wasn't his historical bad year the one, why wasn't the horrendous performance against the 49ers where Kap set a rushing record? If 3 bad years won't get you fired why should a 4th one do it?

I really don't know if it is a lack of talent or the game has passed capers by, but something isn't working, and hasn't been for 3 freaking years. There have been a few games here and there where they seem to put it together but just remember even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[profile_removed]

For all the Ted apologists that point to Jordy, Jennings, Finley, Flynn etc. I say several things 1.) That was the 2008 draft, that was ONE DRAFT! 2.) He also drafted Brian Brohm (bust) with one of the team's first two picks that year. 3.) For all that good he did there he's had several worse picks/drafts. Anybody remember Justin Harrell, Davon House, Nick Perry, Sherrod, to a smaller extent Bulaga, all first rounders, all busts! I was in Green Bay the weekend after Ted got his extension if I had seen Mark Murphy I would've given him an ear full about that extension.

 

[longtimefan]

For all the Ted apologists that point to Jordy, Jennings, Finley, Flynn etc. I say several things 1.) That was the 2008 draft, that was ONE DRAFT! 2.) He also drafted Brian Brohm (bust) with one of the team's first two picks that year. 3.) For all that good he did there he's had several worse picks/drafts. Anybody remember Justin Harrell, Davon House, Nick Perry, Sherrod, to a smaller extent Bulaga, all first rounders, all busts! I was in Green Bay the weekend after Ted got his extension if I had seen Mark Murphy I would've given him an ear full about that extension.

Bulaga named to the NFL All-Rookie team.[9] At21 years, 322 days, Bulaga became the youngest player to start in a Super Bowl.[10]

 

[PackerDNA]

Outside of his inability to stay healthy, I haven't considered Bulaga to be a problem.

 

[TJV]

Anybody remember Justin Harrell, Davon House, Nick Perry, Sherrod, to a smaller extent Bulaga, all first rounders, all busts!

Davon House was a comp pick after the fourth round. Even excusing that error, this kind of exaggeration does your argument no good.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Hell yes we were outcoached last night.

Their OL is average at best. Remember, Breno Giacomini was a starter for them the past 2 or 3 years. Our Castoff.

Lynch was not even drafted by them. So how can be be any good?

CB Richard Sherman? He was taken a few picks after Teddy took Davon House.
Pass-rushers Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril were also castoffs from other teams. Avril from 2 previous teams.
They can't be any good either, they didn't draft them.

Percy Harvin? Hell he was drafted by the Vikings. Seattle traded for the guy. He can't be any good if the Vikings drafted him. Plus he was drafted after Darius Heyward-Bey, and after Aaron Maybin, Larry English, Josh Freeman, Jeremy Maclin, Aaron Curry, Mark Sanchez, and BJ Raji.

All sarcasm aside, I don't think the overall talent on the Seahawks is that much better than ours is.
I think coaching is a bigger difference.
What do you think is a bigger difference: Overall talent, or Coaching (Head and coordinators, positional coaches, etc.)

Case in point: The Percy Harvin Jet-Sweeps.
They did this to Denver in the Super Bowl, for big gains.
They made it look easy.
Did Capers just hope they wouldn't run it?
It is hard to defend if the WR's can block.
But you need to have the safeties up closer.
Without Harvin a threat to go deep, you have to trust Shields & Traymon to prevent the other WR to beat them deep. Move Hyde and Richardson or HaHa (I'm done with Burnett) up closer to the line to diagnose these and come up and hopefully take Harvin's head off.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

But it looked like our players had no idea about it.
Kinda like when we got killed by Kaepernick in the playoffs 2 years ago, we appeared as if we'd never seen film of them trying that, even though the Rams had stopped them twice.

If Harvin can hurt us with that thing, why can't Randall Cobb run the same thing?
We better put that in the playbook going forward (until Cobb gets hurt). Plus Cobb was a former QB (lefty), so he could ultimately add that diminsion too once they start to plan for the Jet Sweep.

Also, the fact that McCarthy and/or Rodgers simply didn't even test Sherman's side. That's horsecrap.
That allowed Seattle to usually cover 3 or 4 receivers with 6 guys. That's why we didn't get any deep passes. They had it covered over-the top with help deep, plus medium.

And once Sherrod got schooled, by those free agent castoffs from last year (Avril & Bennett), then Rodgers had no time to see if Cobb & Jordy could beat their double-teams.

Well this is a pretty compelling analysis, and pretty conclusive that PC simply outcoached MM. We took House instead of Sherman? I don't think I wanted to know that!

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Huge overreaction including the always persuasive name calling. Step back and evaluate McCarthy's overall career as the OC of this offense. Or just continue name calling. BTW, McCarthy made Rodgers into the QB he is today.

Thanks it's good to keep things in perspective. I think Packer fans are probably happier with their team than 80% of NFL fans. Can we do better? Sure but I'd rather be playing well in December than Sept. Although it looks like the Hawks have both mastered. Long season everyone, just breathe.

 

[PackerDNA]

Jack is right about MM/Rodgers. Rodgers had some issues, including mechanics problems, that MM helped him to fix. The Rodgers of today is vastly superior to the Rodgers who was drafted, and not just due to having been in the league for 9 years.
MM is respected as a QB developer around the league.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Some of the key play makers in that super bowl team were seen as and accused of being busts. Aaron Rodgers, Nick Collins and Jordy Nelson all struggled to make much of an impact before eventually having breakout seasons. Sometimes it's wise to wait for a player's 3rd or 4th season to start calling them busts.

Good point. I'm convinced if AR had been put into action right out of college he wouldn't be playing today. Most of that credit should go to MM and honorary mention to Favre for extending his own career and giving AR time to develop.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Jack is right about MM/Rodgers. Rodgers had some issues, including mechanics problems, that MM helped him to fix. The Rodgers of today is vastly superior to the Rodgers who was drafted, and not just due to having been in the league for 9 years.
MM is respected as a QB developer around the league.

Excellent observation. I remember watching AR at Cal, holding the ball way high on his right shoulder, very inefficient set-up motion - and look at him now, one of the quickest, most accurate releases among NFL QBs. MM gets the credit for that, rightfully so - and of course AR's preparation and work ethic are second to none. And thank God Favre didn't retire right away, gave Rodgers time to develop. There are a LOT of teams that would love to have AR as their QB.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Most players are going to be free agents already after their 4th season.

I'm not saying you can expect everyone to be Clay Matthews or Eddie Lacy in their rookie year, but if you're still waiting for most of your guys to come around when half of their career is over, it's going to hurt. It's fair for them to expect some productivity from guys like Nick Perry at this point.

And Rodgers doesn't really belong in that category. He wasn't struggling, he was just waiting behind Favre.

I think it's fair to say that there have been too many draft busts on D. You're right about Perry he should have been producing day one, and Jerel Worthy, and Datone Jones, and on. Then again, there's probably no 2010 SB without undrafted safety Nick Collins so what the heck do any of us know? A lot comes down to work ethic and team chemistry and that's very hard to evaluate pre-draft. The thing that bothered me the most about the loss to the Hawks is that the Pack look scared. I hope I imagined that.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

For all the Ted apologists that point to Jordy, Jennings, Finley, Flynn etc. I say several things 1.) That was the 2008 draft, that was ONE DRAFT! 2.) He also drafted Brian Brohm (bust) with one of the team's first two picks that year. 3.) For all that good he did there he's had several worse picks/drafts. Anybody remember Justin Harrell, Davon House, Nick Perry, Sherrod, to a smaller extent Bulaga, all first rounders, all busts! I was in Green Bay the weekend after Ted got his extension if I had seen Mark Murphy I would've given him an ear full about that extension.

Harrell was a bust, not because of talent but because of nagging injuries. If a player is uninjured in collage how do you anticipate that when you draft? The others you names are still on the roster and as far as I'm concerned can not be called busts. Some guys don't start to take off until they have been around a couple of three years. Drafting is not an exact science.

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

I think it's fair to say that there have been too many draft busts on D. You're right about Perry he should have been producing day one, and Jerel Worthy, and Datone Jones, and on. Then again, there's probably no 2010 SB without undrafted safety Nick Collins so what the heck do any of us know? A lot comes down to work ethic and team chemistry and that's very hard to evaluate pre-draft. The thing that bothered me the most about the loss to the Hawks is that the Pack look scared. I hope I imagined that.

You did

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

You did

Good!

 

[Sanguine camper]

Collins was a second round pick not an UFA. Nevertheless, there have been way too many high draft pick busts on the defensive. Harrell was injured in college and stayed that way in the NFL. One of the primary reasons the Packers lead the league in injuries IMO is that they stick with injury prone young players expecting them to heal up as they get older. I don't think that works well as a way to stock the team. While there are always exceptions like Moke Flanigan players like Neal, Bulaga, Perry, Sherrod , Tretter are not good bets to pencil into the starting line up. The rigors of the NFL have a way of producing more injuries are players get older not vice versa. TT should use the 75 percent rule. If a player can't play 75 percent of the games in at least one of his first two seasons don't count on that player to be a starter! IMO opinion TT deserves as much or more of the blame for the Packets inability to compete with the top teams in the league since 2010.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Collins was a second round pick not an UFA. Nevertheless, there have been way too many high draft pick busts on the defensive. Harrell was injured in college and stayed that way in the NFL. One of the primary reasons the Packers lead the league in injuries IMO is that they stick with injury prone young players expecting them to heal up as they get older. I don't think that works well as a way to stock the team. While there are always exceptions like Moke Flanigan players like Neal, Bulaga, Perry, Sherrod , Tretter are not good bets to pencil into the starting line up. The rigors of the NFL have a way of producing more injuries are players get older not vice versa. TT should use the 75 percent rule. If a player can't play 75 percent of the games in at least one of his first two seasons don't count on that player to be a starter! IMO opinion TT deserves as much or more of the blame for the Packets inability to compete with the top teams in the league since 2010.

Thanks for the correction on Collins. Your rule of thumb is a good one. Let's face it, players will be more likely to get injured the longer they play. For those injured early in their careers, there just is not enough time to really recover and so the cycle goes. Better to have a healthy, above average skill player playing than an oft-injured superstar, or oft-injured 1st or 2nd round pick, sitting on the bench or on IR...... Just look at Bulaga.

 

[paulska]

I'd say both, but that's not to say that our coaching and general management are worthless, which some seem to think agreeing with the original post means.

I have two bones to pick with MM's coaching over the past few seasons. One is in-game adjustments. There are coaches in this league who seem to have knack for grabbing the minds they have gathered around them at a critical point in the game and saying "we're not working here. Let's make a shift- suggestions now." MM isn't one of this- I sort of feel watching Packers football that we see one game in the first half, and if we're fortunate on days that football isn't working, we see a somewhat, but not substantially different gameplan come the second. We're just not quick enough to adapt in game, and that contributes to momentum shifts we don't seem to be able to counter in contests that are close- games that we won in years we went deep in the playoffs, and games we lose in years we don't. I'm not saying I know how to fix this, but I've seen it as a stumbling block trying to get back to the top after we won it all with regularity.

The second is stewardship of the coaching staff. MM is an offense guy, and we all know it. But that means he has an extra responsibility to make sure the other phases of the game are being coached as well as he coaches offenses and QBs (and that's pretty high level on his part). ST has been mediocre throughout his tenure. I suppose one can point to the lack of a Devin Hester type on the roster, but it's the coverage too. He's a loyal guy, which is admirable, but football is not a game where you can be loyal exclusively in pursuit of titles. We're treading water with ST, rather than innovating. I feel the same way about D. Capers' scheme was lights out for the first two years, but has come apart over the past three, and the early returns on this season appear to point to a similar morass on the horizon.

Some may point to personnel, but I think too many forget the REDONCULOUS number of injuries this team suffered on the way to a SB win, especially on D. The scheme created mayhem for opponents, even with a patchwork of players executing it. There's no more unpredictable, mad scientist vibe about our D anymore- it's predictable and ineffective, and Capers isn't drawing up new ways to get after it. **** Lebeau was a co-creator of the scheme we use, but he was so much more effective at instilling it that it remained effective in the long term. It seems to me this is the one quality Capers lacks- he's a great mind, teacher, etc, but something about his approach results in diminishing returns. I really feel this is his last crack here. Back to MM- it's time to crap or get off the pot with this scheme. Given that 65% of D snaps are now in nickel with 4 DL, what your base scheme is is far less important, and I feel like the teams whose defenses push them to titles lately get this- they're deep in the secondary, and they can generate pressure despite a glaring lack of megastar pass rushers. They get good production out of good, but not elite, talent. Few people would list Avril as a top 5 talent at DE, but he works so well within the scheme he plays. We've lost that in GB- our guys don't excel in what we ask them to do, and that's coaching. It's time for MM to find someone fresh who can do that, because we have some players on the D side that could definitely provide similar bang as the Avrils of the world if they had roles that maximized their strengths...

With TT, he's been aces with certain positions- he seems to find WR's all over. TE is solid with sprinkles of awesome, ARod was a monster game changer. Tramon and Sam, Casey, Davon- we have good depth at CB. Not many teams go as deep as us there.

But he's been terrible at others- aside from Clay, our LB situation is yucky at best. Here's hoping Peppers is a tonic for that and some of his prime year awesomeness rubs off on the younger set who still have time to do something. Our MLBs are clear weaknesses- serviceable only. DL is crap- lots of picks, little to show for it. Overall, his record is on the plus side, but it's not nearly as "in the black" as it once was. In the time his effectiveness has waned, other teams have vaulted past us in finding players who fit what they do best- there's no question the Seahawks are at the top of the list of teams this statement validates.

I don't believe that firing MM or TT gets us nearer another title, but with their longevity comes the risk of complacency, and it's a hard thing for the long established to embrace changes that break up their normal. I think remaining on our current path means we'll be competitive enough to bow out to the teams that drive change in the NFL in terms of scheme and personnel, but not enough to defeat them and set the standard. Unfortunately for GB, success is measured in streets named in your honour after title parades, so something will give eventually. I just hope these two guys find it in themselves to do it for themselves rather than getting stale enough that Mark Murphy does it TO them...

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

I'd say both, but that's not to say that our coaching and general management are worthless, which some seem to think agreeing with the original post means.

I have two bones to pick with MM's coaching over the past few seasons. One is in-game adjustments. There are coaches in this league who seem to have knack for grabbing the minds they have gathered around them at a critical point in the game and saying "we're not working here. Let's make a shift- suggestions now." MM isn't one of this- I sort of feel watching Packers football that we see one game in the first half, and if we're fortunate on days that football isn't working, we see a somewhat, but not substantially different gameplan come the second. We're just not quick enough to adapt in game, and that contributes to momentum shifts we don't seem to be able to counter in contests that are close- games that we won in years we went deep in the playoffs, and games we lose in years we don't. I'm not saying I know how to fix this, but I've seen it as a stumbling block trying to get back to the top after we won it all with regularity.

The second is stewardship of the coaching staff. MM is an offense guy, and we all know it. But that means he has an extra responsibility to make sure the other phases of the game are being coached as well as he coaches offenses and QBs (and that's pretty high level on his part). ST has been mediocre throughout his tenure. I suppose one can point to the lack of a Devin Hester type on the roster, but it's the coverage too. He's a loyal guy, which is admirable, but football is not a game where you can be loyal exclusively in pursuit of titles. We're treading water with ST, rather than innovating. I feel the same way about D. Capers' scheme was lights out for the first two years, but has come apart over the past three, and the early returns on this season appear to point to a similar morass on the horizon.

Some may point to personnel, but I think too many forget the REDONCULOUS number of injuries this team suffered on the way to a SB win, especially on D. The scheme created mayhem for opponents, even with a patchwork of players executing it. There's no more unpredictable, mad scientist vibe about our D anymore- it's predictable and ineffective, and Capers isn't drawing up new ways to get after it. **** Lebeau was a co-creator of the scheme we use, but he was so much more effective at instilling it that it remained effective in the long term. It seems to me this is the one quality Capers lacks- he's a great mind, teacher, etc, but something about his approach results in diminishing returns. I really feel this is his last crack here. Back to MM- it's time to crap or get off the pot with this scheme. Given that 65% of D snaps are now in nickel with 4 DL, what your base scheme is is far less important, and I feel like the teams whose defenses push them to titles lately get this- they're deep in the secondary, and they can generate pressure despite a glaring lack of megastar pass rushers. They get good production out of good, but not elite, talent. Few people would list Avril as a top 5 talent at DE, but he works so well within the scheme he plays. We've lost that in GB- our guys don't excel in what we ask them to do, and that's coaching. It's time for MM to find someone fresh who can do that, because we have some players on the D side that could definitely provide similar bang as the Avrils of the world if they had roles that maximized their strengths...

With TT, he's been aces with certain positions- he seems to find WR's all over. TE is solid with sprinkles of awesome, ARod was a monster game changer. Tramon and Sam, Casey, Davon- we have good depth at CB. Not many teams go as deep as us there.

But he's been terrible at others- aside from Clay, our LB situation is yucky at best. Here's hoping Peppers is a tonic for that and some of his prime year awesomeness rubs off on the younger set who still have time to do something. Our MLBs are clear weaknesses- serviceable only. DL is crap- lots of picks, little to show for it. Overall, his record is on the plus side, but it's not nearly as "in the black" as it once was. In the time his effectiveness has waned, other teams have vaulted past us in finding players who fit what they do best- there's no question the Seahawks are at the top of the list of teams this statement validates.

I don't believe that firing MM or TT gets us nearer another title, but with their longevity comes the risk of complacency, and it's a hard thing for the long established to embrace changes that break up their normal. I think remaining on our current path means we'll be competitive enough to bow out to the teams that drive change in the NFL in terms of scheme and personnel, but not enough to defeat them and set the standard. Unfortunately for GB, success is measured in streets named in your honour after title parades, so something will give eventually. I just hope these two guys find it in themselves to do it for themselves rather than getting stale enough that Mark Murphy does it TO them...

Good point about in game adjustments, or lack thereof. Game against the Hawks is a good example. MM is a fine coach, but he is not in the same class as Bellichik (God I hate to say that!), or Sean Peyton to name two who are very adept at rallying the expertise on the sideline and in the booth and asking "any ideas? this ain't working."