Out-Coached? Or out-GM'd?

[FrankRizzo]

Hell yes we were outcoached last night.

Their OL is average at best. Remember, Breno Giacomini was a starter for them the past 2 or 3 years. Our Castoff.

Lynch was not even drafted by them. So how can be be any good?

CB Richard Sherman? He was taken a few picks after Teddy took Davon House.
Pass-rushers Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril were also castoffs from other teams. Avril from 2 previous teams.
They can't be any good either, they didn't draft them.

Percy Harvin? Hell he was drafted by the Vikings. Seattle traded for the guy. He can't be any good if the Vikings drafted him. Plus he was drafted after Darius Heyward-Bey, and after Aaron Maybin, Larry English, Josh Freeman, Jeremy Maclin, Aaron Curry, Mark Sanchez, and BJ Raji.

All sarcasm aside, I don't think the overall talent on the Seahawks is that much better than ours is.
I think coaching is a bigger difference.
What do you think is a bigger difference: Overall talent, or Coaching (Head and coordinators, positional coaches, etc.)

Case in point: The Percy Harvin Jet-Sweeps.
They did this to Denver in the Super Bowl, for big gains.
They made it look easy.
Did Capers just hope they wouldn't run it?
It is hard to defend if the WR's can block.
But you need to have the safeties up closer.
Without Harvin a threat to go deep, you have to trust Shields & Traymon to prevent the other WR to beat them deep. Move Hyde and Richardson or HaHa (I'm done with Burnett) up closer to the line to diagnose these and come up and hopefully take Harvin's head off.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

But it looked like our players had no idea about it.
Kinda like when we got killed by Kaepernick in the playoffs 2 years ago, we appeared as if we'd never seen film of them trying that, even though the Rams had stopped them twice.

If Harvin can hurt us with that thing, why can't Randall Cobb run the same thing?
We better put that in the playbook going forward (until Cobb gets hurt). Plus Cobb was a former QB (lefty), so he could ultimately add that diminsion too once they start to plan for the Jet Sweep.

Also, the fact that McCarthy and/or Rodgers simply didn't even test Sherman's side. That's horsecrap.
That allowed Seattle to usually cover 3 or 4 receivers with 6 guys. That's why we didn't get any deep passes. They had it covered over-the top with help deep, plus medium.

And once Sherrod got schooled, by those free agent castoffs from last year (Avril & Bennett), then Rodgers had no time to see if Cobb & Jordy could beat their double-teams.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think it is a combination of both. The talent level on defense isn't good enough and Thompson has to take blame for not upgrading the ILB position this offseason when everybody following the team knew they had to.

In addition the scheme Capers is running doesn't work well either.

 

[melvin dangerr]

I think it is a combination of both. The talent level on defense isn't good enough and Thompson has to take blame for not upgrading the ILB position this offseason when everybody following the team knew they had to.

In addition the scheme Capers is running doesn't work well either.

well what do we do when they gave thompson and extension I threw up my beer ,at most the P ackees are not overrated they are (Non Rated) add more injuries, lack of talent, 70's era play calling, we are 9-7 at most

 

[Sanguine camper]

When the Packets had more talent Capers and MM won a Super Bowl. TT has had too many high draft pick busts especially on defense. His picks of Worthy and Geeen were killers because a pash rusher was desperately needed. Why it's too early to tell for sure Thornton looks like a bust as well. TT 'sdraft picks on the D line are sinking the franchise. The only other franchise to ever have back to back hall of fame qb's won 5 Super Bowls. The Packers have 2 and it looks like they are wasting Rodgers career. TT should take more of the blame than M M

 

[easyk83]

When the Packets had more talent Capers and MM won a Super Bowl. TT has had too many high draft pick busts especially on defense. His picks of Worthy and Geeen were killers because a pash rusher was desperately needed. Why it's too early to tell for sure Thornton looks like a bust as well. TT 'sdraft picks on the D line are sinking the franchise. The only other franchise to ever have back to back hall of fame qb's won 5 Super Bowls. The Packers have 2 and it looks like they are wasting Rodgers career. TT should take more of the blame than M M

Some of the key play makers in that super bowl team were seen as and accused of being busts. Aaron Rodgers, Nick Collins and Jordy Nelson all struggled to make much of an impact before eventually having breakout seasons. Sometimes it's wise to wait for a player's 3rd or 4th season to start calling them busts.

 

[brandon2348]

This game stings a lot. I even bet the game but to throw the towel in at week 1 is going way overboard IMO. We played the super bowl champs at Seattle on there banner night. We all wanted a win of course but if you would of told me Bulaga was gonna get hurt in 2nd quarter and Rodgers was going to be spotty at times I would of told you we had no chance. I even thought Rodgers was a little indecisive at times which really surprised me. I dont like not going at Sherman at all. On one play for example Rodgers broke contain and tossed deep to endzone to Jordy and if you watch the replay Cobb had at least a few yards on Sherman streaking towards the endzone.

Even with all that the game was competitive mid way through the 4th and if a couple things go our way we might of had a chance to pull something off at the end.

The biggest disappointment on defense was obviously stopping the run. Unfortunately Brad Jones is still Brad Jones. Its like dressing up a "pig" and not expecting it to look like a pig . Secondary looked pretty good and hopefully are young guys can get better as season goes on. I will give the defense credit for hanging in there and helping give the offense second chances. Many times they were defending shorter field. 12-15 seahawk points could easily be hanged on the Packer offense. I liked the pass rush.

Overall we were gonna have to play near perfect to have a chance in Seattle and we didn't. However; its a long season and hopefully Bulaga comes back healthy and we can get enough wins to get these Hawks at Lambeau.

 

[FrankRizzo]

I blame the coaching a bit more than the talent.

Here's why I decided that:As simple as the Jet Sweeps are. Those plays made a huge difference.
FOR THEM.
Against us.

Cobb is great, he should be able to do those things too, especially TOWARDS Sherman's side as he is all alone.
So you fly Cobb in motion that direction and you have Boykin block the Mouth.

Also, for the team to only suit up 4 D-Linemen last night, against a team who's offensive strength is running the football? That's insane. And we're lucky none of them got hurt in the game.

I truly believe reverse the talents, and they'd still win. Because of coaching. I like our guys.
I just hate our ILB's compared to theirs.
But our main ILB was a #5 overall draft pick, and theirs a 2nd rounder. So there's that: talent evaluation and drafting.

Schneider>Thompson
Carroll>McCarthy
Everyone>Capers?

 

[easyk83]

I blame the coaching a bit more than the talent.

Here's why I decided that:As simple as the Jet Sweeps are. Those plays made a huge difference.
FOR THEM.
Against us.

Cobb is great, he should be able to do those things too, especially TOWARDS Sherman's side as he is all alone.
So you fly Cobb in motion that direction and you have Boykin block the Mouth.

Also, for the team to only suit up 4 D-Linemen last night, against a team who's offensive strength is running the football? That's insane. And we're lucky none of them got hurt in the game.

I truly believe reverse the talents, and they'd still win. Because of coaching. I like our guys.
I just hate our ILB's compared to theirs.
But our main ILB was a #5 overall draft pick, and theirs a 2nd rounder. So there's that: talent evaluation and drafting.

Schneider>Thompson
Carroll>McCarthy
Everyone>Capers?

The Jet sweep isn't that tough to defend, you just fire a safety at the guy running the jet sweep. If college defenses can defend Melvin Gordon's jet sweep this way I have to believe that pros can defend Percy Harvin in this manner

Brandon, bear in mind that AJ was drafted in a different time. With rule changes in the league suddenly WAC types became much more valuable for their range and coverage ability. Wagner probably doesn't even get picked in the second round back in 2006.

 

[TJV]

Out-coached or out-GMed? Both.

This game stings a lot. I even bet the game but to throw the towel in at week 1 is going way overboard IMO. We played the super bowl champs at Seattle on there banner night. We all wanted a win of course but if you would of told me Bulaga was gonna get hurt in 2nd quarter and Rodgers was going to be spotty at times I would of told you we had no chance.

Really? No chance? You must have missed the postings of a certain poster who posted an incredible 105 times on the "Will the Packers win in Seattle? You bet they will!" thread. Other than commenting on the scintillating Luck vs. Wilson argument, he was extremely confident of the Packers chances.

I had many reason the Packers would win this game and they are only growing. I think it's possible we could run them off the field and I haven't lost my mind. I love this game.

Nothing wrong with being optimistic but IMO even as a fanatic it's always a good thing to keep your feet planted firmly on the ground.

Perhaps the reactions to yesterday's loss on this board had a little something to do with raised expectations expressed on that thread?

 

[OCBP]

When the Packets had more talent Capers and MM won a Super Bowl. TT has had too many high draft pick busts especially on defense. His picks of Worthy and Geeen were killers because a pash rusher was desperately needed. Why it's too early to tell for sure Thornton looks like a bust as well. TT 'sdraft picks on the D line are sinking the franchise. The only other franchise to ever have back to back hall of fame qb's won 5 Super Bowls. The Packers have 2 and it looks like they are wasting Rodgers career. TT should take more of the blame than M M

Excellent analysis.

 

[Carl]

When the Packets had more talent Capers and MM won a Super Bowl. TT has had too many high draft pick busts especially on defense. His picks of Worthy and Geeen were killers because a pash rusher was desperately needed. Why it's too early to tell for sure Thornton looks like a bust as well. TT 'sdraft picks on the D line are sinking the franchise. The only other franchise to ever have back to back hall of fame qb's won 5 Super Bowls. The Packers have 2 and it looks like they are wasting Rodgers career. TT should take more of the blame than M M

I've heard this before on hear about the other franchise with back to back hall of famers.

The 49ers were a dynasty under Montana built before free agency when a dynasty every decade was pretty common.

Once a team add all their talent, it stayed as long as they wanted it. Can't compare a dynasty from back then to the Packers and therefore call the Packers unsuccessful.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Over at the other site, everyone is saying BOTH to this question.
Only 5 votes here? Everyone shell-shocked still?

 

[Carl]

Up until last year we out GM'd the Seahawks almost every year for about 20 years.

Can't expect the Packers to stay better than every team in the league and when they aren't, call their GM is unsuccessful.

The Seahawks hit on a lot of picks right in a row before having to dish out big contracts. Once they have to pay Wilson and other studs not yet under big contracts, they'll come back down to earth.

 

[OCBP]

I've heard this before on hear about the other franchise with back to back hall of famers.

The 49ers were a dynasty under Montana built before free agency when a dynasty every decade was pretty common.

Once a team add all their talent, it stayed as long as they wanted it. Can't compare a dynasty from back then to the Packers and therefore call the Packers unsuccessful.

Your response plays into Sang's analysis. Prior to FA it came down to drafting the right players. IMO doesn't look good for an abundance of recent TT draft misses.

Additionally, TT doesn't use the FA market anyway and GB, outside of Cullen Jenkins, hasn't lost a prime time player. TT drafts and stands by his picks.

Please don't take the debate to injuries and it takes 3 or 4 years for a drafted player to develop.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Hell yes we were outcoached last night.

Their OL is average at best. Remember, Breno Giacomini was a starter for them the past 2 or 3 years. Our Castoff.

Lynch was not even drafted by them. So how can be be any good?

CB Richard Sherman? He was taken a few picks after Teddy took Davon House.
Pass-rushers Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril were also castoffs from other teams. Avril from 2 previous teams.
They can't be any good either, they didn't draft them.

Percy Harvin? Hell he was drafted by the Vikings. Seattle traded for the guy. He can't be any good if the Vikings drafted him. Plus he was drafted after Darius Heyward-Bey, and after Aaron Maybin, Larry English, Josh Freeman, Jeremy Maclin, Aaron Curry, Mark Sanchez, and BJ Raji.

All sarcasm aside, I don't think the overall talent on the Seahawks is that much better than ours is.
I think coaching is a bigger difference.
What do you think is a bigger difference: Overall talent, or Coaching (Head and coordinators, positional coaches, etc.)

Case in point: The Percy Harvin Jet-Sweeps.
They did this to Denver in the Super Bowl, for big gains.
They made it look easy.
Did Capers just hope they wouldn't run it?
It is hard to defend if the WR's can block.
But you need to have the safeties up closer.
Without Harvin a threat to go deep, you have to trust Shields & Traymon to prevent the other WR to beat them deep. Move Hyde and Richardson or HaHa (I'm done with Burnett) up closer to the line to diagnose these and come up and hopefully take Harvin's head off.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

But it looked like our players had no idea about it.
Kinda like when we got killed by Kaepernick in the playoffs 2 years ago, we appeared as if we'd never seen film of them trying that, even though the Rams had stopped them twice.

If Harvin can hurt us with that thing, why can't Randall Cobb run the same thing?
We better put that in the playbook going forward (until Cobb gets hurt). Plus Cobb was a former QB (lefty), so he could ultimately add that diminsion too once they start to plan for the Jet Sweep.

Also, the fact that McCarthy and/or Rodgers simply didn't even test Sherman's side. That's horsecrap.
That allowed Seattle to usually cover 3 or 4 receivers with 6 guys. That's why we didn't get any deep passes. They had it covered over-the top with help deep, plus medium.

And once Sherrod got schooled, by those free agent castoffs from last year (Avril & Bennett), then Rodgers had no time to see if Cobb & Jordy could beat their double-teams.

I voted talent level, but in reality I believe it's both.

 

[Carl]

Your response plays into Sang's analysis. Prior to FA it came down to drafting the right players. IMO doesn't look good for an abundance of recent TT draft misses.

Additionally, TT doesn't use the FA market anyway and GB, outside of Cullen Jenkins, hasn't lost a prime time player. TT drafts and stands by his picks.

Please don't take the debate to injuries and it takes 3 or 4 years for a drafted player to develop.

My point was back in the day a team like 49ers didn't lose any talent. They were loaded a nowadays would have lost some of that to few agency.

Comparing teams now to back then doesn't make sense to me.

 

[PackerFlatLander]

I would say that in terms of the overall gameplan - we were out-coached. Then again, Carroll probably doesn't even do the game plan - he's not as hands-on with all aspects like MM is. Staying away from Sherman all night - not sure if that was by design or if the looks just weren't there, but that wasn't smart. The first half - I thought was okay, for the most part. Once Bulaga went down, though - momentum shifted. We got out-muscled badly in the second half.

The bright spots? Hard to believe we didn't have one false start penalty in that place, or did we? I don't recall one. Clinton-Dix - while he did miss a few tackles, his presence was felt. But, no sense in naming too many bright spots in a 36-16 loss. Schneider clearly has the better team over Ted right now. I don't think that's debatable.

 

[DaveRoller]

Why not both?

The lack of creativity on O is a problem.

After an entire offseason, Dom's brilliant new strategy is to … permit a running team to run against 2-down lineman? And only 4 defensive lineman were even active, what was that about?

Of course, with Guion, Jones, and Hawk patrolling the middle of the D, I don't know what any D Coordinator could accomplish. That pathetic trio is on the GM.

 

[AKCheese]

BOTH

 

[ExpatPacker]

Ditto....both. At this point I have lost a lot of faith in both TT and MM.

 

[7thFloorRA]

They are both to blame but probably more TT than MM. MM seems a little stubborn and set in his way. He could be more creative but he just seems to stay the course. Now TT......His drafting lately has been flat out awful. Sherrod, Perry and Datone could be the worst 3 year stretch of 1st round picks in the league. Perry and Datone may be useful someday but in the 1st round you draft playmakers not rotational guys.

Now lets look at this year for TT. This team desperately needs new ILB blood and a Safety. He makes the safety pick in the first which is great but then he completely ignores the ILB position. He could have traded up. How precious do those picks look now that he wouldn't trade to move up? Bradford, Thornton and Goodson probably don't even belong on the roster. All were outplayed by UDFAs. I guarantee you Borland could have been drafted if you probably deal just the thornton pick to another team. I am very disappointed with his ability to draft defensive playmakers.

 

[jeg53]

Defense sucks, special teams really suck and it's all on McNumbnuts, he's in control and allows it to continue. And the offensive genius stands on the side lines and drools with that stupid look on his face and wonders why his half the field offensive isn't working. How this team ever won a SB with this clown in charge is amazing, well maybe not Woodson,Rodgers,Collins,Matthews. This guy is wasting you hall of fame QB's career.

 

[TJV]

Defense sucks, special teams really suck and it's all on McNumbnuts, he's in control and allows it to continue. And the offensive genius stands on the side lines and drools with that stupid look on his face and wonders why his half the field offensive isn't working. How this team ever won a SB with this clown in charge is amazing, well maybe not Woodson,Rodgers,Collins,Matthews. This guy is wasting you hall of fame QB's career.

Huge overreaction including the always persuasive name calling. Step back and evaluate McCarthy's overall career as the OC of this offense. Or just continue name calling. BTW, McCarthy made Rodgers into the QB he is today.

 

[DaveRoller]

I agree Jack, MM has been a fine OC in Green Bay. However, he is the head coach of the Packers not the OC.

The perennial special team and defensive deficiencies are MM's responsibility.

 

[adambr2]

Some of the key play makers in that super bowl team were seen as and accused of being busts. Aaron Rodgers, Nick Collins and Jordy Nelson all struggled to make much of an impact before eventually having breakout seasons. Sometimes it's wise to wait for a player's 3rd or 4th season to start calling them busts.

Most players are going to be free agents already after their 4th season.

I'm not saying you can expect everyone to be Clay Matthews or Eddie Lacy in their rookie year, but if you're still waiting for most of your guys to come around when half of their career is over, it's going to hurt. It's fair for them to expect some productivity from guys like Nick Perry at this point.

And Rodgers doesn't really belong in that category. He wasn't struggling, he was just waiting behind Favre.