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Our Defensive Scheme and Execution is what is hurting GB

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by Sunshine885500, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. Sunshine885500

    Sunshine885500 Cheesehead

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    This has been a common theme in GB over the years. We draft Defense, sign Defense and still get the same result.
    Why do we play like a soft defensive team?
    Why do the DBs play off from the receivers and give them a free release off of the line only to have chase behind them constantly?
    Why are we not an attacking defense instead of a zone - read and react defense? Where receivers just sit down and our DBs can't get to the receiver before the ball arrives.

    • Sooner or later things need to change in GB so the defense can carry the team and dictate to the offenses what can and can't be done. Average QBs constantly look like All-Pros against us year in year out. Why is it so hard to mimic the great defensive teams? Sooner or later :(

    https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...ackers-defense-has-been-hugely-disappointing/
     
  2. Favre>Rodgers259

    Favre>Rodgers259 Cheesehead

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    There's not a single game(49ers included) where the defense hasn't kept us in a position to win. The offense continues to sputter at times and even when the defense produces a turnover, forces a punt, or only allow a field goal, we struggle to return the favor of their hard work.

    This is the NFL, you can't continually give teams a chance to strike without putting up points yourself, because eventually teams are going to find success. We could've still lost to San Fran, but 10+ drive only equaling 8 points isn't going to cut it in this league.

    Am I saying that the defense is great? Of course not, but it's been a continual improvement over the last few years. There are a few personnel additions I think that could be made in the back half of the Draft as well as Free Agency, but otherwise I expect an upward trend. The offense has to match their effort. Otherwise, we can only hope they bend more than they break.
     
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  3. weeds

    weeds Fiber deprived old guy.

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    This is a topic I cannot address without my head blowing up.

    Suffice it to say that equivocation is not my sctick.

    This defense is insufficient to move the Pack out from under the black cloud of the Dom Capers curse. Call it a rubber band defense if it makes you feel better. I will continue to call it a thing of ugliness. If you cursed Dom Capers, but, find THIS steaming pile of doggie doo "better" .. Please log out and turn Madden on.
     
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  4. Sunshine885500

    Sunshine885500 Cheesehead

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    Is the Offense bad?

    In comparison to past GB Offenses I would say so and there's a reason why.

    Even though we have players, we don't have a team built to run this scheme religiously which is why when we go against physical defenses we get dominated.
    Our Offense is built to finesse and not to grind. To setup the run with the pass and not the opposite. We also have all the same types of receivers. It didn't work in Detroit with Megatron and all the other big receivers. Not having a smaller slot receiver like a Cobb or Driver hurts an NFL Offense (not hard to see). Offensively we need more physical run blocking and not zone blocking which we are not built for and to pass first, not run. Change up! Stay away from 2nd & 3rd and long. Do what the Offense is built to do.

    Defensively, we have been out stated in almost every game this year. We have been dominated consistently and with the talent we have on defense it doesn't make sense that we consistently have guys out of position.

    I hope you watched Baltimore the other night against the Rams. They pressed every receiver from the line of scrimmage and forced them to work their way off. Forced the Offense into reacting to what they were doing by blitzing the hell out of the teams they've played. Why does our defense not attack? If it weren't for the Smiths our Defense would straight up be a complete embarrassment. With two edge rushers getting the pressure and sacks on the QB like GB does, why do so many QBs we've played this year have so many TDs? Prescott almost 500, etc. Where are the turnovers due to the pressure?
    No where because the DBs play off the ball and not on the receivers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  5. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Only thing though is that it really hasn't been an improvement at all. It's been almost indistinguishable from most all our other defenses the last 8 years.

    The names have changed. The big name pass rushers are now "Smith" and "Smith" instead of "Matthews" and "Peppers." Other than that, they still can't cover the middle of the field, they still give up big chunk plays, and they still can't stop the run.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  6. OldSchool101

    OldSchool101 Peerless Beer, Lacrosse WI

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    The GB Defense absolutely played below their solid 21 point average (albeit on the road against the #2 ranked scoring Offense in the league (30.2) The only team ranked better in 2019 is Baltimore. However had our D allowed its 20-21 points average vs this 31 points? it wouldn’t have mattered.

    Due to the GB Offense opening the game with a 1st down nullified by penalty and flipped the field 25 yards backwards. Then they fumbled at the 2 yard line on the opening drive and gave the 49ers a 7 point TD gift.

    The GB Offense scored 8 points in 4 quarters but gave up 7 Points... So the Offense netted 1 point.
    I want you to think about that for a second.. 1 point.
    The offense converted 6.6% of its 3rd down attempts!
    1 out of 15 tries
    The ST unit averaged 37 yards per punt, but returning punts finished at -1 yards? The 49ers averaged 46 yards a punt and at least averaged a paltry + couple yards per return.
    The Offense and ST units combined and factored together statistically scored ZERO points.


    So with all due respect.. Even with our slightly better than average <=21 pts allowed D? it would’ve still been the same humiliating defeat overshadowed by an Aaron Rodgers career worst Offensive performance in over 160+ contests. The Offense was utterly lost and played in complete shambles.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  7. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    No one is saying the offense played well. However to count the fumble as 7 points allowed by the offense does not account for the fact that there are defenses out there that could possibly make a goal line stand and hold them to 3. It's obviously a lot to ask, but teams have done it to us as we've had 1st and goal on the 1 and come away with nothing. We let them score on the first play.

    The offense was abysmal on Sunday, but has had games this season of playing very well.

    The defense has been pretty consistently poor since September.

    The special teams has been consistently abysmal all season.

    But this thread is about the defense. And this defense, regardless of the play of the offense and special teams, has issues.
     
  8. OldSchool101

    OldSchool101 Peerless Beer, Lacrosse WI

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    99%+ chance they score 3. An Offense ranked #2 in the league spotted the ball at the 2 yard line first and goal on our opening Defensive play of the contest will score a TD the vast majority of times, particularly against a D that’s pretty average like GB. In this case I don’t blame our D at all for that score. Ok. Maybe statistically a #2 Ranked Opponents Offense scores 5.7 points etc.. per series of 4 downs over 100 tries. Who’s splitting hairs.

    While I agree that the Defense has issues, the latest evidence shows that it is the Offense that has a far greater factor on our recent woes. As far as the thread goes..The relationship between O and or D is symbiotic and thus has a direct effect on one another. The thread implies the D is what is hurting GB. While part of the pie chart of issues is our D.. another big part is our O and ST continually putting our D in unfavorable situations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  9. Favre>Rodgers259

    Favre>Rodgers259 Cheesehead

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    To bring the focus back on the defense, I don't see Pettine being a scapegoat in the near future. His M.O. seems to be conservative with some designed plays until it's time to turn up the heat. We continually can't cover the middle however, and I'm for now attributing that to a lack of personnel as well as a scheme issue. But I believe it's more personnel than scheme. Gute I'm confident is going to address that in FA and the Draft, and then it's up to Pettine to dial it up and call it correctly.

    I've also said that our DL has seriously regressed in the personnel department. All we have is Clark. Clark's numbers are down because he has no help. Adams currently has 43.8 grade from PFF and Dean Lowry has a grade of 58.8; however he had a grade of 73.8 in 2018. Adams had a grade of 69.3 in 2018 but he played only 19.7% of all defensive snaps last year, which is what I'm assuming gave the coaches overconfidence in him handling the load this year. Meanwhile, Lowry earned his grade playing 66.3% of all defensive snaps last year. I'm willing to forgive Lowry and get him some help on the other side of the DL. This in my opinion could easily be solved by swapping Gary for Adams, which is what I thought he was brought here to do when they called his name, this OLB project isn't going to work if the Smiths are continually producing. Now we have to spend more draft capital for a "missing piece" who I already believe is on the team.

    The key to a successful 3-4 is the DL demanding double teams and allowing the LBs to stuff the run and run free to the QB. People complain that Martinez only makes plays when he can stay clean...when he does make plays in the backfield that's usually because the DL did its job on that play. It's kind of hard to expect him to continually make said splash plays if he has to tango with a OL who most likely outweighs him by 75+ lbs. The same can be said about the run. With no push up front, you've practically given the opposing RB a free 2 yard play. If he can make a defender miss or at least fall forward at the point of contact, call it a 4-5 yard run.

    If we can improve the DL and find a true cover ILB, I look forward to the progression in Mike Pettine's system.
     
  10. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    How quickly we lower the bar on our expectations when we realize our original expectations are not going to be met. We forget how high the expectations were for this defense coming into the season, and following the opener at Chicago, folks were gushing about our defense and its potential.

    Now it's another year of same old being happy with being around the middle of the pack in scoring defense and near the bottom in yardage.

    This defense was supposed to be better. I don't buy that they don't have the personnel. Yes, they could use a DL or two, but every team has needs.

    For years the offseason strategy has been to load up on defense as much as possible and let Rodgers figure it out on offense with whoever he has. It's not working. We can't keep gifting the defense every offseason at the expense of the offense and not getting results to show for it.
     
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  11. GreenBaySlacker

    GreenBaySlacker Cheesehead

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    The scheme doesn't value the dline enough in my opinion. And all the ability and flexibility is lost by not having the trenches occupied.

    We have been relatively healthy on defense this year. Luckily.... You take one or two cogs out of this machine and it breaks down. That's what I don't like about it.

    Need those biggest strongest fastest big guys out there wrecking **** up front. Clark. We need more Clark's. Then the defense would thrive .And could afford to lose a cog or two without breaking down.

    Imo.

    Bummer is we spent our cap space already .and don't have time to delevope 1st round rookies before the current roster is flipped again...

    It's going to take a maneuver to get the job done. Trade maybe .

    Trade one of the Smith's while their stock is sky high. Promote Gary and fackrell. And get a stud lineman. Would be a good start imo.
     
  12. Pugger

    Pugger Cheesehead

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    You are right, we don't have all the personnel to run this new scheme so it shouldn't be a surprise that it sputtering at times. Gute has spent a lot of draft and FA capital on the defense. We still need to improve the ILB position on that side of the ball. Hopefully our GM will address the offense for 2020.
     
  13. Sunshine885500

    Sunshine885500 Cheesehead

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    Agreed - there are things that need to be improved as there is every year. My point in this topic is that the coaches are not putting the players in the right positions to make plays. We have a very talented secondary, but we are playing all of them like they are Darrell Reeves. Promoting Alexander to that level or King like they are shut down corners and can take away a whole side of the field which is not working. We truly haven't shut down many receivers this season. Why can't we mimic the schemes of successful defensive teams? How many of our players have left GB to become Stars across the league? Is actually that we don't have the talent or is it that we are not putting players in their most successful positions? Are the Coaches forcing their schemes and not playing the players to their strengths? I ask this because it's a reoccurring frustration each year.

    Casey Heyward- LA Chargers
    Micah Hyde - Buf
    JC Trettor - Cle
    Jared Cook - Oak, NO
    Lawrence Guy - NE

    Just to name a few and most of these teams have very formidable defenses. Is it that we don't have the talent? Could the offense be more productive by running what they do well sometimes? What happened to the no huddle/up-tempo schemes? Do we need more powerful, athletic players? Or do we need to look at what other NFL Teams do well on defense and as they say "it's a copy cat league" - mimic their styles and stop trying to force our own schemes?

    Baltimore over the past several years have lost Ngata, Lewis, Smith, Suggs, Reed, Mosley, Webb just to name a few. So is it the players or is it the schemes, scouting and coaches? Of course many of these guys are the best there ever was, but what about now - today? The Pats have traded away Richard Seymour & Chandler Jones in their prime and haven't skipped a beat. So is it the talent or is it the coaching, adjustments and the mindset of our team to play a passive game against NFL Offenses because I for one am sick and tired of average QBs, some with very few NFL Starts slicing up our defense. Let's trying attacking upfield - blitz the hell out of these offenses and force them to react.

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/11/baltimore-ravens-defense-john-harbaugh-adjustments
     
  14. Sunshine885500

    Sunshine885500 Cheesehead

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  15. Pugger

    Pugger Cheesehead

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    The players you mentioned that are no longer with us left when we had TT as our GM. Let's hope Gute won't make this many personnel goofs going forward.
     
  16. Sanguine camper

    Sanguine camper Cheesehead

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    I agree the defense is still much too passive but the fact of the matter is that a bunch of high draft pick busts has left subpar players in the lineup which leaves plenty of opportunities for offensive coordinators to exploit. King is getting picked on and isn't very good. Jackson is a massive second round bust. Burks is a bust. Third round pick and no production. Nothing so far from Rashon Gary with the 12th pick in the draft. You can't have bad drafting and not pay the price. Other than Alexander, Gutes first draft looks like an ugly mess. That has massive consequences.
     
  17. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Kevin wasn't to blame for the Kittle td according to Leroy Butler

    In fact, I believe Butler really likes King
     
  18. ErIstGute

    ErIstGute Cheesehead

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    This isn't 1995. Shut down defense is a thing of the past. Nearly every rule change since Goodell has been around has benefited the offense. That said, our problem the last three weeks has been the offense... particularly one or two players.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 12:15 PM
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  19. ErIstGute

    ErIstGute Cheesehead

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    Have you seen the teams they have played this year? I'm sick of hearing about how "great" their defense is. Enough with the comparison to the Bears and Ravens. The only team they have played that has a winning record put up 37 on them.
     
  20. weeds

    weeds Fiber deprived old guy.

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    Very true. It's not 1995 - it's not even 2011. I direct your attention to last year's Super Bowl. A defense that stinks...gibing up the most explosive plays in the NFL this year (and it's not even close) will play a one 'n' done playoff. You need to go no further back than 2011 to see where a Madden offense/defense takes you.

    ...and I'm not talking about a shut down defense ..
     
  21. Pintsizedbox9

    Pintsizedbox9 Cheesehead

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    Packers defense over the last 8 games:

    Yards per play: 32nd
    Net/pass play: 31st
    Explosive completions: T-26th
    Points per game: 24th
    3/outs forced: 32nd

    The side of the ball with FAR more draft capital and FA investments has fallen flat on their faces.
     
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  22. greengold

    greengold Cheesehead

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    Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner!

    I do agree with the premise, just considering the D side, that Pettine’s scheme is not looking great. He’s had moments, but, they seem more player related than scheme.

    ILB play has hurt us immensely, as it has become a gaping hole for teams to run & pass on GB at will. THAT, is where our D is consistently contributing to losses.

    Really, we’ve had big problems in all 3 phases of the game, and we still have a commendable record for a rookie HC. Things could turn in our favor if they clean up issues we all see plainly.
     
  23. PackinMSP

    PackinMSP Cheesehead

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    It's heavily been a combo of things:

    ILB... Blake seems like a great guy but he is NOT a 3-4 ILB, he can't cover and he's not "nasty" enough to play. I think if he goes to a 4-3 scheme he will probably make multiple Pro Bowls

    King... he makes some plays where you can see serious potential but then he gets beat badly other plays

    Savage... I almost feel bad for Amos as he's been pretty solid IMHO, but he hasn't really had anyone consistent across from him. I hope Savage will develop into the next Nic Collins and stay healthy. But you need 2 or 3 safeties back there in the NFL, not one
     
  24. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Butler evidently likes King quite a bit because there's nobody to blame for that Kittle catch other than King. There was no high safety in this set; everygody is with 10 yards of tge LOS. It was man D. King is lined up over Kittle. King takes Kittle. But then King lets him go to cheat to the side of the rollout.

    It could be a bad defensive call. But there's no excuse for letting a guy run free that you have in man coverage.
     
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  25. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I'll take butlers word it wasn't his fault
     

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