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On the Horizon

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by warhawk, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    I'm not sure if we are not seeing a changing of the guard here but it will not surprise me to see Coston replace Spitz. MM said after the game Sunday that he liked how physical Coston was and that "he just needs to play."

    MM has talked about how well Coston has come along all pre-season.

    Now if that is the case I remember some here on this forum saying that the word in pre-season was that Spitz was actually better at the center postition and if I recall correctly it was eluded to that he may actually be a better center than Wells.

    Now I am not saying that any of this may happen but I do know that changes will have to be made if improvement doesn't come soon. The team is too good in other areas to blow the season not having the players in the right positions.

    I say that and I really like Scott Wells but if Coston does take over Spitz at guard we have no room for the best guy at a position on the sidelines either. No room at all the way they have played so far.
     
  2. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Wells is playing very good...no reason to change the center.
     
  3. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    I personally cannot say that he has played well individually or not as a whole. I know that the tackle play at both the point of attack and on pass defense has not been stellar nor has the backside blocking which Well's does have a significant hand in.

    When you see defensive linemen and opposite side DE's are crashing down line and getting to your RB before they get to the line of scrimmage the interior offensive linemen have NOT done their job.

    As I say I do not have enough knowledge in all of this to say any single guy has done as well as we need them to for our run game to work but IMO all are suspect to a degree in my book.
     
  4. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    Wells is playing great at center i think... but like you warhawk, im not the best judge of a centers play... i just know i havent seen a completly screw up on his part yet. while i have seen clifton, tausch make mistakes.

    how bout this....

    boot clifton and his back to back bad performances move Colledge to LT and spitz to LG

    Colledge / Spitz / Wells / Coston / Tauscher that would be the only way to get the 5 best Olineman on the field. Clifton could probally use some rest anyway. and would be about the best backup in the NFL .
     
  5. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    I'm not ready to give up on Clifton just yet, but I am seriously worried about him. He just looks so stiff out there at times. The problem is that none of these O-linemen seem to be playing very well right now, with the possible exception of Wells. Colledge has done a couple of bullfighter moves at guard, and if he does that at left tackle Brett is REALLY going to be hurting.

    At least the pass blocking firmed up during the second half against the Giants. I hope they can build on that momentum going into the next game.
     
  6. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    The Clifton concerns also come after all the talk about how good he felt coming into this year and how he looked out there early.

    It is not good when a veteran that feels good physically and looks like he's moving around good(which is what they said about him early on) cannot make the plays on game day.

    I don't know what the answer is but if they don't start getting it done out there I expect them to change it up and maybe like Packnic says it might mean putting Clifton down.

    My point is about one more game of lousy "0" line play and as reluctant as MM would be about breaking that group up I think he would be compelled to try something else.
     
  7. yooperfan

    yooperfan Cheesehead

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    McCarthy last night on the Mike McCarthy Show said that Coston would remain the starting right guard.
    Left Tackle AND left guard have looked weak so far. If they don't improve I can't see moving College to tackle as an answer since he seems to be part of the problem.
     
  8. dhpackr

    dhpackr Cheesehead

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    the o line was supposed to be the strongest part of the team this year, and it has been the weakest. everyone thought College was a great player. I always saw college as TT attempt to replace a great player TT let out of GB. I never understood forcing College to play G in the first place. Everyone on this forum wrote how athletic colledge was. how the line was better than 2004, I just do not see it.
     
  9. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    at this point, i don't think the organization believes Colledge is strong enough to play tackle. More importantly, he doesn't stay down in his stance. when a DE puts you on your heels, you're done. And Colledge needs to learn how to balance his body before you can put him on the end of the line.
     
  10. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Nobody criticisized TT for drafting Colledge where he did. The team made a conscious decision to go the route of the ZBS and he was the best offensive lineman for that scheme. I will leave the player evaluation process to the guys that do that for a living.

    Last year when our defense basically hit a new low after the NE game people talked about rash changes from player personnel to coaches being fired. MM made it very clear that these guys just needed to do their job better and pay attention to detail and assaignments.

    A single change of moving Jenkins to DE made a huge difference in the performance of the defense overall.

    I do not think moving Colledge out or throwing him under the bus after coming in raw last year and holding up as well as he did would even be close to the solution here.

    The signs are there, however, that Coston is going to be playing more. Unless, unexplainably, these guys just all forgot how to play the game I expect a little change in there but a lot of improvement.
     
  11. Timmons

    Timmons Cheesehead

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    If Clifton were a horse, does this mean we'll be shooting him?

    Seriously, I don't watch our line enough to see who failed where, (unless there is an obvious replay). However, most of our running blocking problems are coming from the interior of the line. I haven't seen defenders in our running back field so often in a long time. I feel sorry for our running backs.
     
  12. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    I seriously think we are having more issues with the mental part of the scheme and technique than with the players physically executing. (and Timmons, no not Cliffy either.)

    We are letting guys inside and out go free when someone should have a hat on them without a doubt. That to me is the players are not on the same page or the center is not calling on the assigments with the blitz packages correctly.

    Second part as I watched the game again last night is the overall line, with the exception of Wells, is playing with their pads to high, this group other than maybe Coston and Palmer inside are not big or brute enough to overpower people. When you play inside to tall, you lose the leverage that you should have. Again I wonder if it is partial due to confusion in pickup and they are rocking back in their stance to watch the play develop instead of firing out and executing.

    Plus we are not cutting with any real consistency, which if you watch say a Denver they are laying people on the ground and letting the natural lanes form.

    It is too early to point at the coaches, but I think Jag might be the biggest loss we encountered this past offseason. Not "throwing them under the bus", but so far we have reverted with the combination of Philbin and Cappy running the show solo. :twocents:
     
  13. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    When we run left I see four defenders coming at our blockers and one or two trailing parallel along the line. Often, the back guy is the one hitting the RB before he gets to the line.

    I don't know the answer and don't profess to but I sure see a swarm of defenders over there. Simple MATH tells you it's not going anywhere when you see that many people from the other team in one area.

    You would think if they would do a short cutback to the opposite interior of the line once the defense has committed the other way it would make the defense more honest.

    It certainly does not appear to me that defenses are concerned they are overcommitting and open to the cutback. They just POUR over there.

    Is this not what you guys see? I'm really not just complaining here but trying to talk thru what I see out there. I mean we already all know it's not pretty.
     
  14. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    That I have to agree with, I don't know why we are not running some type of counter trey type of play to let the defense overflow and pin them in. Again, how much did we lose from last year to this with Jag's missing from the O?

    It should be interesting to watch them develop their own style, but so far so good that we have made it to 2-0 while they are working out the kinks.

    Camppy will get these boys ready... even if he has to throw a jersey on and show them.
     
  15. dhpackr

    dhpackr Cheesehead

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    I kind of thought moving Colledge to G when he played T in college was throwing him under the bus. I'm just saying let the guy play his natural position, which was T.

    everyone boasted about Colledge's athletic ability, and how great he was going to be in the ZBS, if clifton continues to get beat, a change maybe needed. This kid was drafted in the 2nd round, plenty of linemen drafted in the 4th 5th round start their rookie year. didn't Taucher start right away, and he was a low draft choice.
     
  16. jdlax

    jdlax Cheesehead

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    I'd be shocked if anyone here, nevermind everyone, has claimed that this year's line is better than 2004's line of Clifton, Wahle, Flanagan, Rivera, and Tauscher. Come on.
     
  17. dhpackr

    dhpackr Cheesehead

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    is this a bait post?
    b/c i have been attacked many times for saying this years o line is not as good as 2004. many times!
     
  18. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Put all those players on the line NOW. in 2007. Bring Flanny and Wahle back, and put them with the struggling Clifton. Bring back the old guys and see how well they do NOW.

    In 2004 = good line

    in 2007 = not a good line

    the change was made for an obvious reason, and the more we see Clifton struggle, and the other guys struggle on other teams, it becomes very very obvious.

    But yeah, sure, "They're a good line! always have been, always will be! offensive linemen dont age! They have knees of steel!"

    Right.

    Age ain't nothin but a number, right?

    lol.
     
  19. dhpackr

    dhpackr Cheesehead

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    right now today, wahle is better than colledge, flanny is in houston, the team is playing well, green is going to rush for a 1000 yrds, green already has 150 and a TD.
     
  20. jdlax

    jdlax Cheesehead

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    I'm not sure if you misunderstood my post, or...?

    By "2004's line" I mean the 2004 performance of the 5 guys that suited up that season. No "shoulda kepts" or "wish we still hads" in my first post.
     
  21. jdlax

    jdlax Cheesehead

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    No bait here. What I'm saying is that while you're saying "our 2004 offensive line was better" I would be shocked if you've actually came across anyone who would prefer this year's line to the one of 2004(in their prime, of course). Basically, I don't really know why you brought that up, because it's not even an arguement. The Clifton-Wahle-Flanny-Rivera-Taucher line was just about without peer.
     
  22. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    we had a lot of groomed\mature players in their prime.

    we aren't there yet

    but we will be.
     
  23. Aytumious

    Aytumious Cheesehead

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    Who said it would be the strongest?

    Who the hell thought last years line (or this years, coming into the season) was better than the line in 2004? We probably won't see a line like the we had back then for a very long time.
     
  24. millertime

    millertime Cheesehead

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    At least Moll is healthy again.

    Anyone think Barbre should get a shot at RG? He seems to be pretty strong playing tackle in college and all.

    I think the coaches know more than all of us.
     
  25. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    The point Trom brings up is that was then and this is now and I would not want to see the line with the same guys we had in '04 with where they stand now.

    Wahle may be holding his own but that's about it.

    We are better off today with the young guys with the upside than we would have been holding on to that group. Just ask KC. They had a great line that they did not prepare for being gone and now they suck.

    It was inevitable that this line was going to cycle out. Some change may come but Wahle, Rivera, Flanny? C'mon. We wouldn't only suck now but for years to come if we didn't address it by now.
     

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