OFFICIAL Packers VS Lions - The Matt Flynn Game

[Lionsfan54]

And that's my point.

They're complaining about the refs when they lost to our backups. That's the same loser mentality that their coach employs. Have you ever seen McCarthy use the refs as an excuse? Even after we got robbed at AZ he didn't take that easy road. And we're where we're at.

As long as the Lions are more interested in being thugs and in shouting louder, they won't be in the same class (pun intended) as we are.

It's not a rivalry if only one team wins.

WOW ...

Are you really going to sit on here and claim the Packers won this game without ANY help ??
You really need a reality check,
The Packers didn't play with any less players then we did, you sat Rogers, Jennings, (hurt, by the way)
Mathews, and Woodson, that's all..
WE (Lions) sat out

Delmas
Fairley, NO HE DIDN'T PLAY, he was on the sideline in street clothes, if you saw his jersey on the field your high
Best, your gonna put Jennings in there I'm going to call out one of our injuries
Berry

That is not "WE BEAT THE LIONS WITH OUR SECOND STRING"
Cause you all sound ridicules when you say that ,
Driver, Jones, etc are not your second string

So stop patting your selves on the back, you have a great back up QB, he won't be there next year, there is no way he's going to live in the shadow of Rogers,

Your defense gave up 500 yards to a QB, with 5 TD, Oh excuse me, closer to 600 yards with 6 TD , but YOUR officials made sure that didn't happen....

You can sit on here and all beat on your make believe chest that your the Kings of the Football world, but it really seems to me I would be concerned when the Packers aren't being aided by the NFL's officials,

Oh and one more things, your school yard antics didn't get the Lions to react like you did on T-day, today the Packers showed they were the Class Less Thugs, we weren't the ones taking late cheap shots on players after whistles, but once again YOUR officials saw to that they weren't called.....

 

[Croak]

WOW ...

Are you really going to sit on here and claim the Packers won this game without ANY help ??
You really need a reality check,
The Packers didn't play with any less players then we did, you sat Rogers, Jennings, (hurt, by the way)
Mathews, and Woodson, that's all..
WE (Lions) sat out

Delmas
Fairley, NO HE DIDN'T PLAY, he was on the sideline in street clothes, if you saw his jersey on the field your high
Best, your gonna put Jennings in there I'm going to call out one of our injuries
Berry

That is not "WE BEAT THE LIONS WITH OUR SECOND STRING"
Cause you all sound ridicules when you say that ,
Driver, Jones, etc are not your second string

So stop patting your selves on the back, you have a great back up QB, he won't be there next year, there is no way he's going to live in the shadow of Rogers,

Your defense gave up 500 yards to a QB, with 5 TD, Oh excuse me, closer to 600 yards with 6 TD , but YOUR officials made sure that didn't happen....

You can sit on here and all beat on your make believe chest that your the Kings of the Football world, but it really seems to me I would be concerned when the Packers aren't being aided by the NFL's officials,

Oh and one more things, your school yard antics didn't get the Lions to react like you did on T-day, today the Packers showed they were the Class Less Thugs, we weren't the ones taking late cheap shots on players after whistles, but once again YOUR officials saw to that they weren't called.....

Maybe you should read the NFC North Blog on ESPN.com which sums it up well; " I hope no one leaves the Lions locker room blaming those calls for the loss. The Lions had a 41-38 lead with 2:44 remaining, and their defense couldn't slow down a watered-down Packers offense. That's on them. The Packers' winning drive included two third-down conversions, one of which came after defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh jumped offside."

 

[PackersRS]

WOW ...

Are you really going to sit on here and claim the Packers won this game without ANY help ??
You really need a reality check,
The Packers didn't play with any less players then we did, you sat Rogers, Jennings, (hurt, by the way)
Mathews, and Woodson, that's all..
WE (Lions) sat out

Delmas
Fairley, NO HE DIDN'T PLAY, he was on the sideline in street clothes, if you saw his jersey on the field your high
Best, your gonna put Jennings in there I'm going to call out one of our injuries
Berry

That is not "WE BEAT THE LIONS WITH OUR SECOND STRING"
Cause you all sound ridicules when you say that ,
Driver, Jones, etc are not your second string

So stop patting your selves on the back, you have a great back up QB, he won't be there next year, there is no way he's going to live in the shadow of Rogers,

Your defense gave up 500 yards to a QB, with 5 TD, Oh excuse me, closer to 600 yards with 6 TD , but YOUR officials made sure that didn't happen....

You can sit on here and all beat on your make believe chest that your the Kings of the Football world, but it really seems to me I would be concerned when the Packers aren't being aided by the NFL's officials,

Oh and one more things, your school yard antics didn't get the Lions to react like you did on T-day, today the Packers showed they were the Class Less Thugs, we weren't the ones taking late cheap shots on players after whistles, but once again YOUR officials saw to that they weren't called.....

This is so crazy I don't even know where to begin with.

Driver is the #3 WR. Jones is the #4. Neither of them are starters. In fact, that's the definition of 2nd string.

We're not patting ourselves in the back, this game was meaningless to us. So meaningless the 4 best players on our team (Rodgers, Jennings, Woodson, Matthews) didn't start. Yet your team lost.

The refs were bad, we got good calls. All of that is true. It doesn't stray from the fact that your team played the best available, we rested the most important starters, and you still lost. And it's not like your team didn't have a chance to win this game. It wasn't the refs driving down the field to score the game winning TD. It wasn't the refs that put 45 points on your defense. And it wasn't the refs that threw the game-clinching interception. Why didn't your offense scored then, against our pathetic defense?

And why didn't these claims of being robbed came at Thanksgiving? When we played you at your home, and won by just 13 points (with a garbage time TD)?

Let me put that again, in better terms for you: WE RESTED THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYERS ON OUR TEAM AND STILL WON.

So be mad at the officials. Be mad at me, at the Packers, at the world for all I care. Actually, I don't. We care about the Saints. We care about New England, Pittsburgh and Baltimore.

We don't care about a team that hasn't won in our home for more than 20 years, that hadn't made the playoffs this CENTURY, and that can't win against our backups in a meaningless game for us.

We don't care about a team that's not in the same league as us. Lemme illustrate to you just how pathetic your team is:

It's fans are borderline rioting about being robbed against our backups in a meaningless game.

But then again, at least you've won more games this season than you've lost. So there's that. And you made the playoffs! Kudos to you... Was this the best season in Lions' history, at least since the AFL NFL merger? It is isn't it?

In the best season of your franchise since the merger, you still lose to our backups...

 

[Bogart]

Will they take into consideration all of the time when Rodgers was pulled and Brees was left in to pad his stats?

I highly doubt it.

 

[Croak]

Schwartz in the post game presser; "We covered poorly, we tackled poorly, we played man to man poorly...etc"

http://www.detroitlions.com/media-c...01-01-12/03d51d51-1ebb-40ea-bdeb-5c1c25fbc3b6

 

[Bogart]

g

So stop patting your selves on the back, you have a great back up QB, he won't be there next year, there is no way he's going to live in the shadow of Rogers,

Your defense gave up 500 yards to a QB, with 5 TD, Oh excuse me, closer to 600 yards with 6 TD , but YOUR officials made sure that didn't happen....

You can sit on here and all beat on your make believe chest that your the Kings of the Football world, but it really seems to me I would be concerned when the Packers aren't being aided by the NFL's officials,

I'm not going to argue with you, but I will give the Lions credit for massing 575 total yards on offense against this pathetic pass coverage, and I've been one of the few people on this board that likes Matthew Stafford, props to him for surpassing the 5,000 mark, I'm glad he's having some success after the injuries he has went through.


Good luck against the Saints, I fear you'll need it. If the Lions could play that well against the Pack, I don't think they will lay down against the Saints, they will put up a fight.

 

[Croak]

I'm not going to argue with you, but I will give the Lions credit for massing 575 total yards on offense against this pathetic pass coverage, and I've been one of the few people on this board that likes Matthew Stafford, props to him for surpassing the 5,000 mark, I'm glad he's having some success after the injuries he has went through.


Good luck against the Saints, I fear you'll need it. If the Lions could play that well against the Pack, I don't think they will lay down against the Saints, they will put up a fight.

I liked what Stafford said in his post game comments too. He said something like; We kept letting ourselves get behind in the game. It's hard to win when you do that.

 

[Bogart]

I liked what Stafford said in his post game comments too. He said something like; We kept letting ourselves get behind in the game. It's hard to win when you do that.

Well I like Stafford regardless what people say about him, he's a top quarterback. I already take enough crap from this board for liking Brees, so I might as well take it for liking Stafford too lol. He's one of the few for the Lions I like for his classiness, but as far as the NFC North goes in quarterbacks, he has Cutler beat by a mile.

 

[maxlives]

WOW ...

Are you really going to sit on here and claim the Packers won this game without ANY help ??
You really need a reality check,
The Packers didn't play with any less players then we did, you sat Rogers, Jennings, (hurt, by the way)
Mathews, and Woodson, that's all..
WE (Lions) sat out

Delmas
Fairley, NO HE DIDN'T PLAY, he was on the sideline in street clothes, if you saw his jersey on the field your high
Best, your gonna put Jennings in there I'm going to call out one of our injuries
Berry

That is not "WE BEAT THE LIONS WITH OUR SECOND STRING"
Cause you all sound ridicules when you say that ,
Driver, Jones, etc are not your second string

So stop patting your selves on the back, you have a great back up QB, he won't be there next year, there is no way he's going to live in the shadow of Rogers,

Your defense gave up 500 yards to a QB, with 5 TD, Oh excuse me, closer to 600 yards with 6 TD , but YOUR officials made sure that didn't happen....

You can sit on here and all beat on your make believe chest that your the Kings of the Football world, but it really seems to me I would be concerned when the Packers aren't being aided by the NFL's officials,

Oh and one more things, your school yard antics didn't get the Lions to react like you did on T-day, today the Packers showed they were the Class Less Thugs, we weren't the ones taking late cheap shots on players after whistles, but once again YOUR officials saw to that they weren't called.....

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[Bogart]

Is there a video of it? I'd like to see it...


The Lions pretty much played to lose this game. I wonder if they had a better running game, they probably would have won.

 

[ivo610]

only lions fans would blame the greatest offensive performance in Packer history on the refs

 

[PackersRS]

Well I like Stafford regardless what people say about him, he's a top quarterback. I already take enough crap from this board for liking Brees, so I might as well take it for liking Stafford too lol. He's one of the few for the Lions I like for his classiness, but as far as the NFC North goes in quarterbacks, he has Cutler beat by a mile.

Nothing wrong with liking Brees. In fact, I can't see how anyone can dislike Brees, it's borderline impossible, he's possibly the best human being on the planet.

To like him better than Rodgers, though...

And disagree about Stafford/Cutler. Look at the Bears' games, after we played them. Cutler started playing out of his mind, this despite having 0.5 seconds on average to throw the ball before getting destroyed by a DLineman.

Stafford has tons of talent and a bright future, but he's still too inconsistent with his throws (look at how many times he overthrew this game, and this time he didn't have the glove as an excuse), he's still too lazy with his decision-making (he throws blindighted a lot, was intercepted twice today because of it, and all too often just throws for grabs near Megatron, who bails him out more often than not), and nowhere near the elite guys in terms of pre and post-snap reads. He is lazy at selling the fake sometimes, his snap count is predictable, and he's not good at controlling the defense with pump-fakes and his eyes.

Stafford has a blessed arm, one of the strongest in the league and he can show very, very good accuracy and touch on the ball. He's mentally though, and he's asked to do a lot for that offense. He has great work ethic and shows good leadership. He has a lot working for him.

But he's not an elite QB. He can get there, and probably will. But right now, he's not in the same level as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, and both Mannings. And believe me, I'm an Eli hater. I think Eli relies too much on pre-snap reads and can get rattled if he reads them wrongly, that he forces too many throws, among other problems. But, this year, Eli proved he's elite. That final drive against us was monstruous, his receivers were running wrong routes and he had to correct them, and he kept making adjustements for delayed routes that quite simply outwitted Capers.

For all the yards and TDs Stafford threw against us, he was picked off 5 times in both matchups combined, and when the starters played, at their home, he couldn't do anything.

 

[Bogart]

Nothing wrong with liking Brees. In fact, I can't see how anyone can dislike Brees, it's borderline impossible, he's possibly the best human being on the planet.

To like him better than Rodgers, though...

And disagree about Stafford/Cutler. Look at the Bears' games, after we played them. Cutler started playing out of his mind, this despite having 0.5 seconds on average to throw the ball before getting destroyed by a DLineman.

Stafford has tons of talent and a bright future, but he's still too inconsistent with his throws (look at how many times he overthrew this game, and this time he didn't have the glove as an excuse), he's still too lazy with his decision-making (he throws blindighted a lot, was intercepted twice today because of it, and all too often just throws for grabs near Megatron, who bails him out more often than not), and nowhere near the elite guys in terms of pre and post-snap reads. He is lazy at selling the fake sometimes, his snap count is predictable, and he's not good at controlling the defense with pump-fakes and his eyes.

Stafford has a blessed arm, one of the strongest in the league and he can show very, very good accuracy and touch on the ball. He's mentally though, and he's asked to do a lot for that offense. He has great work ethic and shows good leadership. He has a lot working for him.

But he's not an elite QB. He can get there, and probably will. But right now, he's not in the same level as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, and both Mannings. And believe me, I'm an Eli hater. I think Eli relies too much on pre-snap reads and can get rattled if he reads them wrongly, that he forces too many throws, among other problems. But, this year, Eli proved he's elite. That final drive against us was monstruous, his receivers were running wrong routes and he had to correct them, and he kept making adjustements for delayed routes that quite simply outwitted Capers.

For all the yards and TDs Stafford threw against us, he was picked off 5 times in both matchups combined, and when the starters played, at their home, he couldn't do anything.

Well you have a point. I wouldn't take Stafford over Rodgers any day, but I like the kid so far. I'm a little too ******* Cutler as it is.


So far if I had to judge Detroit as a whole when it comes to improving from the previous season, The Lions offense would get a B. If they had a good rushing attack and could easily lay 100 yards on the ground, they'd be a very dangerous team. That's the only thing missing for them I believe. They got the quarterback and receivers, need a running game.

 

[Croak]

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

Somebody call the Waaaaambulance....

 

[longtimefan]

WOW ...

Are you really going to sit on here and claim the Packers won this game without ANY help ??
You really need a reality check,
The Packers didn't play with any less players then we did, you sat Rogers, Jennings, (hurt, by the way)
Mathews, and Woodson, that's all..
WE (Lions) sat out

Delmas
Fairley, NO HE DIDN'T PLAY, he was on the sideline in street clothes, if you saw his jersey on the field your high

http://www.nfl.com/player/nickfairley/2495479/profile

4 total tackles..

http://www.nfl.com/inactives?team=DET

Nick Fairley DT Active

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/20120...ab=analyze&recap=fullstory&analyze=playbyplay

1-10-DET 36 (9:23) (Shotgun) 25-R.Grant left tackle to DET 29 for 7 yards (96-A.Fluellen, 98-N.Fairley).

Guess I was high

Best, your gonna put Jennings in there I'm going to call out one of our injuries
Berry

That is not "WE BEAT THE LIONS WITH OUR SECOND STRING"
Cause you all sound ridicules when you say that ,
Driver, Jones, etc are not your second string

So stop patting your selves on the back, you have a great back up QB, he won't be there next year, there is no way he's going to live in the shadow of Rogers,

Your defense gave up 500 yards to a QB, with 5 TD, Oh excuse me, closer to 600 yards with 6 TD , but YOUR officials made sure that didn't happen....

You can sit on here and all beat on your make believe chest that your the Kings of the Football world, but it really seems to me I would be concerned when the Packers aren't being aided by the NFL's officials,

Oh and one more things, your school yard antics didn't get the Lions to react like you did on T-day, today the Packers showed they were the Class Less Thugs, we weren't the ones taking late cheap shots on players after whistles, but once again YOUR officials saw to that they weren't called.....

We sat players that are far better then the players you sat..Regardless of injury or not.Our missing players are far > than the ones you missed..So in "THERORY" if our players did play it may never have been in question who would wi


Our def does suck.. .We have a many page thread on how bad it is, so you arent telling us anything new..

but we missed our 2 best defense players..Maybe out come would been different?

But so what? We won, that is all that matters..But I thought for sure Det would crush us...

21 years of losing at Lambeau, that must suck

Part of the coaches job is to challenge at the right time or he screws up his future ones..Maybe he needs to be better at his challenges?

Lord knows McCarthy has had his regrets at the red flags

 

[PackersRS]

Well you have a point. I wouldn't take Stafford over Rodgers any day, but I like the kid so far. I'm a little too ******* Cutler as it is.


So far if I had to judge Detroit as a whole when it comes to improving from the previous season, The Lions offense would get a B. If they had a good rushing attack and could easily lay 100 yards on the ground, they'd be a very dangerous team. That's the only thing missing for them I believe. They got the quarterback and receivers, need a running game.

Hard to build a running game when your OC calls for so many passes, and when your top 2 backs are on IR.

As for Cutler, up until this year, much as with Eli, I laughed when people listed Cutler as a top 10 QB. I've never, not once, been afraid or worried about facing any of them, but Cutler in particular, as he's always been an interception machine.

But after seeing him play that Detroit game and going forward, I had to give him props. I mean, that was perhaps the worst pass blocking OL in the history of the game, with no weapons outside of Forte whatsoever, and with one of the most stupid and stubborn OCs in the league that kept calling for 7 step drops, yet he kept making plays, kept his poise, despite being drilled every single snap.

Too bad the Bears have a terrible GM and a cheapass organization, because I really think that Cutler this season "got it".

 

[Bogart]

Hard to build a running game when your OC calls for so many passes, and when your top 2 backs are on IR.

As for Cutler, up until this year, much as with Eli, I laughed when people listed Cutler as a top 10 QB. I've never, not once, been afraid or worried about facing any of them, but Cutler in particular, as he's always been an interception machine.

But after seeing him play that that Detroit game and going forward, I had to give him props. I mean, that was perhaps the worst pass blocking OL in the history of the game, with no weapons outside of Forte whatsoever, and with one of the most stupid and stubborn OCs in the league that kept calling for 7 step drops, yet he kept making plays, kept his poise, despite being drilled every single snap.

Too bad the Bears have a terrible GM and a cheapass organization, because I really think that Cutler this season "got it".

I expected more of Chicago's defense this season....While their offense between Forte and Cutler grabbed the headlines this year, I was a bit disappointed with the D. Even when the Packers played them, it just didn't feel like they were trying. Last year, they were one of the only teams to give them a hard time, and they managed to shut down Rodgers in the playoffs, but this year it felt like they weren't even trying after losing the first few games without Cutler.

 

[whoartthou]

Nothing wrong with liking Brees. In fact, I can't see how anyone can dislike Brees, it's borderline impossible, he's possibly the best human being on the planet.

To like him better than Rodgers, though...

And disagree about Stafford/Cutler. Look at the Bears' games, after we played them. Cutler started playing out of his mind, this despite having 0.5 seconds on average to throw the ball before getting destroyed by a DLineman.

Stafford has tons of talent and a bright future, but he's still too inconsistent with his throws (look at how many times he overthrew this game, and this time he didn't have the glove as an excuse), he's still too lazy with his decision-making (he throws blindighted a lot, was intercepted twice today because of it, and all too often just throws for grabs near Megatron, who bails him out more often than not), and nowhere near the elite guys in terms of pre and post-snap reads. He is lazy at selling the fake sometimes, his snap count is predictable, and he's not good at controlling the defense with pump-fakes and his eyes.

Stafford has a blessed arm, one of the strongest in the league and he can show very, very good accuracy and touch on the ball. He's mentally though, and he's asked to do a lot for that offense. He has great work ethic and shows good leadership. He has a lot working for him.

But he's not an elite QB. He can get there, and probably will. But right now, he's not in the same level as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, and both Mannings. And believe me, I'm an Eli hater. I think Eli relies too much on pre-snap reads and can get rattled if he reads them wrongly, that he forces too many throws, among other problems. But, this year, Eli proved he's elite. That final drive against us was monstruous, his receivers were running wrong routes and he had to correct them, and he kept making adjustements for delayed routes that quite simply outwitted Capers.

For all the yards and TDs Stafford threw against us, he was picked off 5 times in both matchups combined, and when the starters played, at their home, he couldn't do anything.

Give cutler the offense stafford has, and he would EASILY have similar stats. Cutlers arm IMO is > than staffords. His OL just sucks and he has no WR corps.

I really feel bad for cutler. He is a top echelon talent quarterback... and if he can get his head and mind together, he can eventually become an elite qb.

 

[Barrysghost]

Probably still sitting on a Lion's forum whining about the reffing. Maybe trying to weasel out of mutual suicide pacts. Re-enforcing their belief that their defense can stop NO & Brees and Co. after they couldn't stop a backup QB without his best WR and RB.

Jeez, sorry I didn't log in RIGHT AWAY to respond, come on. Ya, totally wrong about the weather being a factor, it was a shootout of record proportions. I am definitely whining about the reffing here. Young had that TD, he was not out of bounds, it was a bad call, there is NO arguing it. Its being called a terrible call all over the NFL network. There were a few bad calls (on both sides) here and there, but this one cost us the game. With that TD, its a 48-45 win for the Lions. I'm not really that upset, we were in the playoffs anyway, but close losses like that (when your QB throws for 520 yds with 5 tds) do suck. Can't take anything away from Flynn though, that guy is gonna make a good starter for some team next season. Both Offenses played extremely well today.

Overall, an exciting game. Good luck to you in 2 weeks guys.

 

[Croak]

One call cost the Lions the game? You don't think the failure to stop the Packers when the Lions were in the lead near the end cost it? You don't think an interception when the offense was driving toward the score cost it? You don't think an easy dropped TD pass cost it? Just sayin'.

 

[longtimefan]

Jeez, sorry I didn't log in RIGHT AWAY to respond, come on. Ya, totally wrong about the weather being a factor, it was a shootout of record proportions. I am definitely whining about the reffing here. Young had that TD, he was not out of bounds, it was a bad call, there is NO arguing it. Its being called a terrible call all over the NFL network. There were a few bad calls (on both sides) here and there, but this one cost us the game. With that TD, its a 48-45 win for the Lions. I'm not really that upset, we were in the playoffs anyway, but close losses like that (when your QB throws for 520 yds with 5 tds) do suck. Can't take anything away from Flynn though, that guy is gonna make a good starter for some team next season. Both Offenses played extremely well today.

Overall, an exciting game. Good luck to you in 2 weeks guys.

We agree it sucked to get robbed of a Td..I dont think it cost you the game however..

They had another down to get the TD but failed..And then you got a gift with a pi on Tramon in the 4th that gained 36 yards on 2nd and 7..You got a Td a few plays later...That prob shouldnt have been called but it was...

What about the turn overs? Maybe that hurt more then a missed call??

Packers have had their share of bad calls and it sucks..But most here will not use a poor call to blame a loss on..We may blame MM for not challenging something, but majority wont blame a ref..

I am not looking forward to playing you guy anymore, either in the playoffs, or for next few years..You will get past that hump and start to be the elite teams IMO

 

[longtimefan]

I think you can blame Suh just as much as the refs...Offsides on a 3rd and 3 on Packers last drive? He doesnt go offsides, then maybe they hold the Pack and game over

 

[GreenBlood]

I agree that should of been a touchdown..

Yes. It should have been a TD. But it's the ******* Schwartz's fault for blowing one of his challenges on an 8 yard pass play in the first quarter.

 

[Barrysghost]

agreed, I think both defenses could have played better, lol. What a high scoring game, it was something else.
*sigh* we're gonna go have another shootout with the Saints now, and as much as I'd like the Lions to win it, I'm not so sure about that. BUT, we finally made the playoffs (which is a win of sorts), and next season will be better. We (as a team) have our confidence back, and hopefully we'll pick a few guys up to strengthen our weak points (O-line, Run game, Secondary). Have a comfy bi-week, the Pack earned it.

 

[Bogart]

agreed, I think both defenses could have played better, lol. What a high scoring game, it was something else.
*sigh* we're gonna go have another shootout with the Saints now, and as much as I'd like the Lions to win it, I'm not so sure about that. BUT, we finally made the playoffs (which is a win of sorts), and next season will be better. We (as a team) have our confidence back, and hopefully we'll pick a few guys up to strengthen our weak points (O-line, Run game, Secondary). Have a comfy bi-week, the Pack earned it.

Win or lose in the playoffs, I know you guys will appreciate making it for the first time in over a decade.
Regardless of how I feel of the Lions, I have nothing against their fans who have sat through all the pain and sorrow for over time.