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OFFICIAL DEFENSIVE ISSUES THREAD

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Southpaw, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    I don't believe so. We are a vertean team that has been together for a while. We shouldn't have to rely on team practices to play good defense. I hate making excuses for every outcome. Every time their is an excuse they look back in hindsight and pick out something that may of been the cause. In all reality if the players do their job their wouldn't have to be excuses.
     
  2. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Our front 7 definitely suck right now. Clay and Bishop and Raji are the only guys up there doing their job. Everyone else just sucks. There also seems to be a severe lack of passion and leadership on defense. Nobody is rallying our players getting them to step up and take it to another level.

    I hope they are just trolling, tbh. They have two weeks to get healthy and figure it the fuk out. It's the playoffs and it's time to start giving a damn and play football.
     
  3. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    Pressure makes quarterbacks do strange things. Even the greatest QB's of all time were out of rhythm when they constantly got beat up by a good defense.
     
  4. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Also I think if there was ever a time for our run game to get going, it's right now. Our offensive line is healthy now and Starks will have fresh legs for the playoffs, so I'd like to see us start running more effectively.
     
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  5. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    That's the wild factor of this offense. Earlier in the year the Pack picked up right where they left off in the playoffs last year with a strong running game. Over the course of the season, it started to die down, and now we're back to putting it in the air 40 times a game to win it all on the quarterback. Starting to remind me of those close loses from 2010 where Rodgers had damn good games, but we had no running game at all.
     
  6. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    The interesting thing about our defense this year, IMO, is that in road games at Atlanta, and at Detroit, our defense totally bottled those high-octane offenses up.

    We spotted Atlanta a quick 14-0 lead.
    The final score was 25-14 Packers.

    In Detroit, we won 27-15.
    Aside from the slaughtering 45-7 win over the Vikings, those 2 games (at Atlanta and at Detroit) were the fewest points we allowed this season. Well the Rams only scored 3... they don't really count though (but they did beat Brees haha)

    People expected that Falcons game and that Lions game to be shootout-city, as did my wagers on bodog dammit. I bet both games to go over. :tdown:

    Perhaps Mike Neal can step up, and I don't say that mockingly, and I don't say it confidently. He had the ability... shoot him up with some vicodin if he's still sore, and turn the guy loose after Eli or Matt.
     
  7. greenandgold

    greenandgold I'm Dirty Hairy Callahan

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    As long as our defense gives up less points than our offense scores, I'm good with it. They've done it 15 times so far this year, lets do it three more.
     
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  8. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    I agree to an extent. But I would narrow the majority of the problems to be primarily the front 3 and then Peprah not having the requisite range at his position.
     
  9. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I agree with this and feel the loss of Nick Collins has played a bigger role in our lack of a pass rush than anything else. With Collins in the back field we can send Woodson more often than we do now. Or we can get creative and pretend to send Woodson only to send Tramon or Collins instead. It opens a lot more of the playbook and provides more exotic looks that are hard to counter.

    Regardless, it's been long said that a solid pass rush can help cover a soft secondary. Based on the sheer number of picks we've enjoyed this season, we happen to have an elite secondary. It's the lack of a pass rush that's killing us.
     
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  10. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    Well to the lead the league in interceptions is huge when you have terrible blitzing and the quarterbacks have all the time in the world to pass.

    You can't expect the secondary to pick off every single pass, I don't think it's all their fault. This defense is the opposite of how you would want it.

    Most defenses, it's the linebackers and blitzing that do all the heavy lifting for a defense, and then you have to count on the CB's and secondary to get the interceptions. The Packers are the complete opposite of that. The secondary does all the heavy lifting, by getting the interceptions, fighting against deep ball and easy passes. The front 3, and linebackers are absolutely ridiculous. When it comes to running all over the Packers D, I'd say that San Diego showed the way around the league. Just run the opposite direction of Clay Matthews and you can rack up 100 rushing yards easily.



    The secondary of this defense is what any defensive coordinator would dream of having, if they had a missing link. 3/4's of the time with a defense, they'll have the linebackers and blitz core but will be missing a good secondary for interceptions. This of course was the problem with the "Dome Patrol" in the late 80's and early 90's of New Orleans. That was one of the greatest linebacker cores of all time, but their secondary was average. Those guys were a damn nightmare to quarterbacks in their short prime, and they finished ranked #1 back to back, but they still were missing good CB's to get interceptions.

    Our defense is only 50% complete of a total 100%. They got the corners and lead the league in interceptions, but if they had the pressure to send on quarterbacks, a good linebacker core, and something along those lines, they could go from a worst ranked defense to a top 3, hard to believe but that's how I see it.
     
  11. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    We need to steal Jason Pierre-Paul for a few games.
     
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  12. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    didn't think this was possible
     
  13. greenandgold

    greenandgold I'm Dirty Hairy Callahan

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    Well, it sure was looking strange out there Sunday with no #21 or #52.
     
  14. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    I'm inclined to think that it's the loss of Collins and Jenkins. However, Collins was playing during the Saints and part of the Panthers games when the defense was already giving up lots of yards. So does that mean that Jenkins was the linch pin- the difference between a 32nd ranked team and a 2nd ranked team in 2010? Doubtful.

    All over the Packer defense, guys have not been playing at the top of their games. Raji isn't playing like he did last year. Howard Green is playing more like the guy who bounced from team to team. Jenkins is gone. Matthews is playing well but not electric like last season. Hawk hasn't been as solid and Bishop hasn't had the same fire. Both still playing well but not great. The other OLB position has been abysmal. Woodson isn't playing near his DPOY level, Williams has been hurt but is starting to play great again, but Shields isn't the same guy he was in 2010. Then you go to safety. Peprah filled in just fine for Burnett (a rookie) last year but doesn't even fill half of Collins' shoes. Burnett and Peprah are an average safety duo but leave much to be desired.

    There is no one answer except that very few defensive players are playing with the same zip that they did in 2010.
     
  15. Ceodore

    Ceodore Cheesehead

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    I think we lost a couple of the guys that really contributed to the pass rush. Having them there made the lives of the secondary much easier. And i think we still insist on blitzing even though we never seem to get to the QB, and there's not much that can be done when that happens. I'm assuming management thought the guys that were second to the guys that were traded would be better than they really are and I just don't think they're good enough to put on a good pass rush.
     
  16. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Hmmmm... here is a question... If the lockout destroyed the defense, how come it didn't destroy the offense? Wouldn't they be under the same conditions? They didn't lose anybody, but still they came out shooting with both barrels and they also lacked an off season.
     
  17. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    No. The defense has had the whole season to get it figured out. If they couldn't do it then it's either the coach or the players. Losing one man on the line should not do what it did. Even with all the problems the Vikings have had with DB's,(they suck) they did better than the Packers on pass D this year, with the exceptions being interceptions and TD's given up. Although the Packer were pretty close in the TD's given up. I do think the D being as porus as it is will come to haunt the Packers in the playoffs.
     
  18. Ceodore

    Ceodore Cheesehead

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    Valid. That's why I think it has more to do with our personel than anything else. The guys that we traded might not have been studs, but they were good enough to make it so other teams couldn't double team Clay all of the time. And they were good enough to be able to rush the pass enough (at least better than what we have now) that it would force the offense's hand to an extent to make the secondary's lives easier.

    That isn't to say the pass rush necessarily forces more turnovers (although it does) as evidenced by our D this year. But they can force QB's to throw just off target enough to create many more incompletions and throw more balls away.
     
  19. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I hesitate to immediately dismiss any theory on why the defense has slipped so far this year because I have to confess it's a mystery to me. Even so I think the lockout should have been more beneficial to the Packers, including their defense, than most other teams. Consider all the teams that had new HCs and/or assistant coaches and/or new personnel to incorporate into their schemes. None of that was true for the Packers. Not only that, but because they played in the Super Bowl, the Packers and Steelers had the advantage as the teams which most recently were able to hold practices before the lockout. The Packers had more tape to "self-scout" with than any other team except the Steelers. So IMO the idea that the lockout prevented the Packers from evaluating their LBs is exactly wrong - the lockout provided them with more time for self-evaluation, not less. Not only that but all of their LBs returned from the previous season. They made the decision to go with Hawk and Bishop long before the lockout. And they witnessed a D with both Zombo and Walden at ROLB have success. So while I'm not sure why the D has surrendered so many yards and given up more points/game I can't find a logical way to tie that to the lockout.

    Certainly losing Jenkins to FA and Collins to injury hurt the defense. But I don't think that tells the whole story. The off season and the lockout gave opponents a lot of time to analyze Capers' D but I don't think that tells the whole story, either.

    For example, should we assume Shields' play last year was a one-time event and he'll never reach that level of play again? Or is he just suffering from a "sophomore slump"? No question in my mind he's not playing as well as he did last season. I expected him to play better this year than last and I still think he has the potential to be special, but he hasn't realized that potential yet IMO. Tramon Williams was hurt early in the season but even after getting healthy he hasn't been the shut-down CB he was last year. Is that just because of the absence of Collins? I don’t think so but I can't explain the decline in his play, either. Certainly less pressure on opposing QBs puts more pressure on the secondary but again, I don’t think that tells the whole story…

    I don't think the Packers have the worst D in the league, so IMO saying they went from the 2nd ranked D to the 32nd ranked D is misleading. Certainly the D isn't playing up to last year's level but I don't think it's as bad as the yardage surrendered stats indicate. I think it was mentioned on last Sunday's telecast - if not I heard it somewhere - that since Dom Capers came to Green Bay, the Packers defense has taken the ball away more than any other D in the league. That led me to looking up some numbers I think are relevant to this discussion. Regular season results:

    2009: 7th in points surrendered at 18.6/game; First in INTs at 30; 10 fumbles recovered for a total of 40 TOs. OQBR: 6th at 74.9.

    2010: 2nd in points surrendered at 15.0/game; Second in INTs at 25; 8 fumbles recovered for a total of 33 TOs. OQBR: 2nd at 67.3.

    2011: 19th in points surrendered at 22.4/game; First in INTs at 31; 7 fumbles recovered for a total of 38 TOs. OQBR: 9th at 80.5.

    All the stats came from nfl.com except for opponent's QB rating (OQBR) came from teamrankings.com. LINK

    All the numbers except INTs are worse this season than in the two previous ones. In 3 seasons Capers' defenses have forced 111 turnovers in 48 regular season games. That's over 2 TOs per game and his Ds have met that mark each season. No matter how many yards they surrender, if they can take the ball away twice in each playoff game I don't think any team can beat them. (Yes, I know it's a big IF.) One last thought on this: I think we all agree the pass rush this year is the worst it's been under Capers. I am of the opinion that Shields and Williams haven't played this year as well as they did last year. Obviously Collins is/was their most talented safety and they miss him a lot. If all of that is true, why are the INTs up this season from the previous two? After careful scrutiny and a lot of thought I've come to this conclusion: I don't know.
     
  20. gbpowner

    gbpowner Cheesehead

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    I think the fall of the defense is multi-factorial: including loss of key members and others not playing up to standards set last year. However to compare the Vikings defense and it's standings to the Packers, is somewhat a miscarriage of justice! I'm not making excuses for the porous Pack defense but it is interesting to note that some of the teams with the worst defenses in the league this year, also have the best offenses (NO, NE, Pack, Giants). Week after week the worst defensive teams (Packers) faced offenses who had no choice but to keep up with the best high powered offense (Packers again). The Vikings defense didn't exactly have to face offenses that were desperate to put up points to keep up with the Vikings offensive output! The NFL is getting exactly the product that they want! Loads of aerial attacks, lots of points scored at the loss of any team winning with defense anymore.
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yet another defense thread
     
  22. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    Perhaps go back to having the "official defensive issues thread" pinned?
     
  23. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    That's something I wonder cause you'd think the defenses wouldn't be effected by the lock out, a defense is easier to run in 3-4 or 4-3 or whatever rather than the offensive formations. I don't think anyone expected the numbers this year, such as 3 QB's with 5,000 passing yards, and the number of touchdown passes.
     
  24. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    We're 32nd.
     
  25. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    I guess that about sums it up succinctly.
     
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