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OFFICIAL DEFENSIVE ISSUES THREAD

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Southpaw, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    I can't wait to see the Packers prove us wrong when they win the Super Bowl with this "terrible d".
     
  2. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    That would only prove that the team can win with a terrible D,not that they aren't terrible. Being terrible does not eliminate the odds of winning, it simply reduces the odds.

    Some fans choose to not worry about the odds while enjoying the ride, while others worry and prefer to discuss ways the team could improve the odds. No one is wrong or is any less of a fan either way, IMO.
     
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  3. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I completely disagree. Yards isn't the only, nor the best measure of a defense. All three of the teams you mention have given up more points than we have and none of those three even come close to us in turnovers forced. In fact, our defense is clearly better than the Saints. Which defense would you rather have:

    Defense #1: 34 turnovers, 27 sacks, 122 passes defended, 400 yards/game, 21.2 points/game

    Defense #2: 14 turnovers, 31 sacks, 98 passes defended, 373 yards/game, 21.5 points/game

    I know which one I'd rather have.

    We also have more turnovers and fewer points per game than the Lions and Falcons, while they both have a few more sacks. I don't think either one of those defenses are "better" than ours, just different. But either way, ours gets better results.

    I suspect you will see a lot of new wrinkles thrown in come playoff time too. I think Capers simplified the defense somewhat when the season started because of the strike. Since we have been winning, there's really no reason to show more during the season. I'll wager when playoffs start you'll see a lot more blitz packages and stunts thrown in, much like last season.
     
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  4. Ceodore

    Ceodore Cheesehead

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    part of me wishes they'd stop blitzing and play more conservatively. The blitzes aren't getting to the QB's leaving the receivers wide open. Maybe it's time they just play straight up.
     
  5. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Brees isn't going to do anything to our defense that Rodgers can't do to theirs. In fact, he's more likely to throw INTs to our defense than Rodgers is to thrown them to theirs. That is if they get past their 2nd round opponent.....
     
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  6. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    I have been thinking the same. It's getting old to see the blitzer come within inches of making a play on the QB, only to watch a completed pass to a wide open receiver or back who rumbles for 20 yards or more.

    Man up. Bump and run. See what happens for a series or two. Would love to see it.
     
  7. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    A few here have expressed the opinion that Capers and the D will somehow turn on a switch and become the D from last year. I hope that's true but I can't think of a reason for them not playing better in the regular season if it were that easy. Certainly Capers will have some new looks teams haven't seen before: Remember Raji's pick six in the NFCC game? That was the first time that season the Packers ran that particular zone blitz. But it takes more than new looks to sustain a good defensive effort all game long. Getting everyone back - as healthy as they can be expected to be in January - will help a lot IMO. Bishop and Pickett are very important to this D, particularly against teams with strong running games. And a healthy Bishop is probably their second or third best blitzer on obvious passing downs. But players like Williams and Shields are going to have to pick up their play and I hope Burnett does as well. Burnett in particular hasn't advanced as far as I thought he would this season and that has made Collins' absence all the more noticeable. (But there's still time to shine Morgan!)

    IMO Capers started the season in bend but don't break mode, keeping more players in coverage rather than sending extra blitzers. After Woodson's comments about turning Matthews loose more I thought Capers started to get more aggressive. The results with either strategy have been mixed at best. I favor the more aggressive schemes because I think it is more likely to cause a turnover and even if it doesn't, it tends to get the ball back to the offense more quickly, one way or another. Whether they're playing coverage or blitzing, if the O is clicking, all the D has to do is contain the opponents' O: Force some FG attempts instead of allowing TDs. Don't allow consecutive drives of 9 or 10 plays - get a three and out to break the opponents' momentum and get the ball back to Rodgers and the O.

    The Packers have several advantages going into the playoffs. IMO they have the best QB and best receiving corp - in today's NFL which emphasizes the passing game that shouldn't be understated. Another of the Packers' 'aces in the hole' IS home field advantage and that can be very important particularly to the Packers' D. Packers fans aren't stupid like many Bears fans: They don't need to be reminded (time and time again) to be quiet when their team's offense is on the field. A loud and rowdy crowd can make life difficult for opposing offenses. An opponent missing an audible and/or opponents' offensive lineman who have to hesitate a fraction of a second to be sure they don't jump off-sides can cause a turnover or an incompletion. Or at least disrupt the rhythm of the opponents' O.

    The other advantage the Packers have is all of their coaching staff and most of their roster experienced last years' 6-game playoff run. Teams that know how to win in pressure-packed games have an advantage. By itself of course it's not enough but against teams like the 49ers and the Lions it, along with HFA, can be the deciding edge necessary to continue the playoff run.
     
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  8. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    Watch them run a 4-3. Pickett and Raji on the inside with CJ and Wynn at DE. Hawk will be benched. Clay and DJ on the outside and Bishop in the middle. It will totally screw with the blocking schemes of the other team.
     
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  9. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    This probably has been discussed at some point but how about moving Woodson to safety (replacing Peprah) in certain formations and moving House, Lee, or Bush into the nickel back replacing Shields. Going back over several games there have been breakdowns across the entire defense, but to me Peprah just seems either a step slow by foot or maybe mentally out there. I really can't put my finger on it entirely. Sure he had all those interceptions but many were tipped by others and the product of being in the right place at the right time.

    More than Peprah though what is ailing this defense is for the d-line to shed blocks and we have been extremely poor at that this season. Disguising coverages and getting pressure on QB really helped spur the Pack in last years postseason. The defense hopefully can improve in those areas otherwise the Packers are very ripe for the pickings.
     
  10. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    I just watched Super Bowl XLV (again). Several observations; Jenkins didn't contribute anything, but Collins contributed a lot. Collins is definitely missed in this defense. Also Green contributed a good bit in the Super Bowl. The Packers only had 1 sack in that entire game. They had trouble stopping Mendenhall and didn't really pressure Roethlisberger much more than they are pressuring QBs now. I also noticed four down lineman more in that game than in games this year.

    The secondary isn't quite in rhythm this year without Collins but it was the turnovers against Pittsburgh that made all the difference. Maybe what we are seeing this year isn't really a whole lot different than what we saw in the Super Bowl.
     
  11. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    When Woodson went out in the Super Bowl, that was a big momentum shift.

    Just think about it, we had them shut down before he went out, and Ben likes to force the ball around, he proved it when he forced it near Woodson on the play he was injured. Had Woodson played that entire game, I think Ben would have left the game with 3 INT's, and the score would have been quite different.

    But overall, there's a huge difference between our defense this year, and last year. I don't believe the Jenkins theory. he's a big name because he signed with the Eagles, but what about Morgan Burnett? His presence in the pass rush is gone too. We went from having a good pass rush down to one of the worst in the league, and that's one reason we are ranked at 31st.


    The rush defense is a big problem too. If we end up losing in the post season it will more than likely be because we can't stop the run (or the pass either). This offense is loaded but they are only 1/3rd of the team.
     
  12. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    You could be right. In the Super Bowl had Roethlisberger connected with his receivers better when they were open it might have been a different game too. There was only occasional QB pressure from what I watched today. One of them from Green resulted in Collins' pick six. Otherwise, Ben wasn't roughed up much at all.
     
  13. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Green had only one QB hit in that game as did Raji. But Bishop, Zombo and Matthews were very active in that game. So maybe the DL including Jenkins was doing their job by getting pressure. Anyway, what was, was. Clearily we don't get enough pressure this year.
     
  14. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    The Packers have finished the regular season dead last in total defense.

    This is only the third time ever Green Bay has done so.

    The 1956 team ranked 12th of 12 teams. The 1983 team ranked 28th of 28 teams. And now the 2011 team ranks 32nd of 32 teams. The Packers surrendered 411.6 yards per game this season -- slightly worst than the New England Patriots (411.1). Of course, both teams are No. 1 seeds the postseason. Turnovers have helped both units. Green Bay set a team record with 31 interceptions. The Patriots had 23 picks.

    Opposing quarterbacks have feasted on the Packers most of this season, a problem that could catch up with them in the postseason. In the divisional round, Green Bay will face either Eli Manning (4,933 yards, 29 touchdowns), Matt Ryan (4,177, 29) or Matthew Stafford (5,038, 41)
     
  15. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    I talked with a buddy of mine last night about this in between Starcraft games, and he tried to convince me the lockout is the big rotten apple of why the Packers defense went to complete **** this season.

    According to this theory, the lock out, they didn't have enough time to evaluate and see that their linebackers (other than Clay) were not going to be that great. But from my point of view, you would think the lock out would hurt the offenses rather than defenses, since a defense overall should know the book better (3-4 or 4-3 is not as complicated as West Coast Offense or Run And Shoot or whatever offense you run). I don't fully agree with this, but it's a nice way to look at it I guess. If they had more time, maybe they would have been better prepared as a defense.


    Most have forgotten that Pittsburgh had defensive problems early this season.
    Go back to the first few games of the season and I think everyone quoted the Steelers as "old, tired, slow" cause that's how they looked against Baltimore and Houston, whom ran all over them. But the Steelers managed to get it together eventually.

    Another "Good" defense that has struggled is the Jets. Yet I don't really buy into the whole lock out hurting those guys. Rex's defense fails just like Buddy Ryan's defense does, they expose a weakness and a QB like Brady can make it worse and create a blue print on how to beat you through the air.


    Is it the secondary giving up all the big plays and huge chunks of points and yards or the fact there's no pressure at all on quarterbacks? Yes, and no.

    Leading the league in interceptions without a good blitz pressure, is actually Impressive to say at the least for a team that finished 32nd ranked overall in total defense.

    The Defense so far this season has to rely on all the back field, and they just can't do it all. There is talent there with all the interceptions, and Charles Woodson is a big play maker, and so on, but at the end of the day they can't do it all and that's why the defense has struggled all season.

    My friend had a good point, but I still think if Burnett, and possibly Pickett were still on this team, they could get better pressure than just relying on Clay to do it all.
     
  16. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    It couldn't have helped matters much, but I wouldn't use the term "destroyed." That's a bit extreme. More like it hampered them. If you want to look at a team that got destroyed by the lockout, look at the Dream Team. That team, most notably the D, never got the chance to practice together and gel in the preseason. By the time they got it together, it was late in the season and too late for them to make the playoffs. In that case, we should all be very thankful for the lockout. Another thing to consider is all teams were in the same boat as us in terms of the lockout. Equal playing field. I think losing Jenkins hurt this team more than people would like to admit. He left a hole that had to be filled and with no off season and practice team, I think it took guys a long time to get used to playing without a player who was always such a huge part of the defense's unique chemistry. So yes, the lockout hurt us there as well by not giving the defense the time to work with new players and gel as a unit. If one thing the lockout has shown us is the importance of off season training camp and what happens to a team when they don't have it.
     
  17. Poppa San

    Poppa San SB I trophy First of four Staff Member Moderator

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    I'd buy that if this weren't basically the same defense and players as the previous two years. Except for the LB injuries, I don't think any rookie gets any meaningful snaps on defense. I think the change in the way practices are conducted because of the new contract has more to do with it. Capers defense always seemed to me a finesse type as opposed to a line 'em up and knock 'em down style which will need less attention to detail.
     
  18. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    Nah... subtract Jenkins and subtract Collins and you have the recipe for a poor defense. Peprah is ok...but let's face it ... I really believe that Jenkins leaving and his replacement not stepping up.... we'll see what they do in the playoffs but in the mean time ... I'm just kind of trying to not think about it. Particularly after watching the Pack's defense on Sunday and the Badger's defense on Monday. Man, talk about a kick in the nutz -- TWICE.
     
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  19. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I think you'll see a lot of new wrinkles come playoff times. Every team has a few. I'm sure Capers has some blitz packages and coverage schemes that he's been holding in his back pocket. The more of that you can hold back for the playoffs, the better. Well, the Packers have a 15-1 record, so why expose more of your hand than you need to?
     
  20. Greenbayphil

    Greenbayphil Cheesehead

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    Yeh I really believe this whole lockout issue is a scapegoat.
    I think its got more to do with our leader in Nick Collins gone, making sure everyone knows their assignment on every play.
    And also we dont have that other pass rusher, that compliments everyone else on the Dline, called Cullen Jenkins.
     
  21. packersfan152

    packersfan152 Cheesehead

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    Did anyone see during the one Vikings game that the Packer's defense was incredible? When Charles Woodson was all over the field. I think that is whats going to happen during the play off run. With a week off, they can add up some new wrinkles and let 21 run terror on the offense. I have a good feeling that since they have been up so often, they didn't have to show half of their defensive plays and Capers has something really good up his sleeve.

    Also, who is with me when I say that Walden has GOT to go. I'd rather see DJ Smith play OLB and make some tackles.
     
  22. Greenbayphil

    Greenbayphil Cheesehead

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    I also believe that if it was due to the lockout and not enough time to prepare.

    17 DAMN WEEKS SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH TIME TO SORT THIS MESS OUT DURING THE SEASON.

    However, just got to roll with the punches and hope our offense has a good day and our defense gets a couple of turnovers.
     
  23. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    I've come to think the problem isn't our secondary, it's the linebackers and front 3. The defense so far depends heavily on the back field to do all the heavy lifting cause there is no constant pressure on QB's.
     
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  24. Greenbayphil

    Greenbayphil Cheesehead

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    Ive come to think that we just suck this year, and if capers cant fix it, then its broke.
     
  25. FearThePack

    FearThePack 13x World Champs!

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    This. Putting pressure on the QB is the best way to get an offense out of rhythm. Look at our only loss this season, what did the chiefs do to slow down the offense? QB pressure and lots of it. An extra second can make all the difference in the world.
     

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