OFFICIAL DEFENSIVE ISSUES THREAD

[realcaliforniacheese]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/16545723

shoulder bruised and swelling.

Hope he doesn't become another Harrell

 

[13 Times Champs]

Just a couple of things to remind some folks of. Neal has registered 0 tackles in five games for us. Jenkins production over the last 5 games still exceeds Neals. Jenkins has not missed a couple of games he's missed one. Neal on the other hand has missed 9. Jenkins is playing in an entirely different system in Philly(a 4-3) so production in Philly doesn't necessarily translate to the same as if he was with the Pack. No matter how you try to spin it, we are not better off without Jenkins.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Just a couple of things to remind some folks of. Neal has registered 0 tackles in five games for us. Jenkins production over the last 5 games still exceeds Neals. Jenkins has not missed a couple of games he's missed one. Neal on the other hand has missed 9. Jenkins is playing in an entirely different system in Philly(a 4-3) so production in Philly doesn't necessarily translate to the same as if he was with the Pack. No matter how you try to spin it, we are not better off without Jenkins.

Obviously. I mean it's not even debatable.
Jenkins is one of the best interior pass-rushers in the NFL. I've heard scouts, Bill Parcells, other players say it.
Now Jenkins has been doubled more lately, the past month+, and if anyone understands it's not all about one players' statistics, the might want to ask Jason Babin what effect Cullen drawing double-teams has had on him.

Who here has heard of Jason Babin?

 

[Southpaw]

I hope next year we draft someone like Crick or Winn.

 

[G0PackG0]

Ok, it seems to me the Pack secondary is always playing for the pick and not just trying to defend the pass. You know trying to make the wr "look" open while being able to pop in and head the other direction. Sometimes this is great. Other times some moron like kyle orton eats us alive with crummy 5 yard dump offs. Is this the personnel or the scheme or neither?

 

[ivo610]

Obviously. I mean it's not even debatable.
Jenkins is one of the best interior pass-rushers in the NFL. I've heard scouts, Bill Parcells, other players say it.
Now Jenkins has been doubled more lately, the past month+, and if anyone understands it's not all about one players' statistics, the might want to ask Jason Babin what effect Cullen drawing double-teams has had on him.

Who here has heard of Jason Babin?

there was a reason why he got a big contract in the offseason. Not a 1 season wonder. I believe he landed in the 50-85 range on nfl networks top 100 players over the summer.

 

[ivo610]

I don't really consider Neal that injured if he is in practice. Everyone is banged up week 16. Some "fans" just look for things to jump on certain picks for (bush)

 

[Croak]

Obviously. I mean it's not even debatable.
Jenkins is one of the best interior pass-rushers in the NFL. I've heard scouts, Bill Parcells, other players say it.
Now Jenkins has been doubled more lately, the past month+, and if anyone understands it's not all about one players' statistics, the might want to ask Jason Babin what effect Cullen drawing double-teams has had on him.

Who here has heard of Jason Babin?

Ok, let me first state I now feel the Packers would have been better keeping Jenkins this year (only because he stayed relatively healthy). He did leave several games early with "dings".

With that said, he's not actually drawing double teams in Philly that much, only when there is a spare blocker or the run play is going toward him. Offenses have too much to worry about with Cole and Babin. He's now playing on a FOUR man front that plays the wide nine. Not a THREE man front. Those who say he was double teamed in Green Bay giving Clay room to romp fail to realize with a 3 man rush 5 offensive lineman and a running back can double a couple of guys. This is why the Packers need to get pressure from the LBs or the secondary.

Green Bay's 3 guys' first responsibility is to "hold the line". Their second responsibility is to "get push". Their 3rd responsibility is to get to the QB. So the Packers don't want a speed pass rusher in that position any more. They want a great big guy who can man handle o-linemen.

I believe it would have been better to keep Jenkins because even though he isn't the big hole plugging guy the Packers need at that position, he's a far sight better than what they are left with now. Although, had he gone down with an injury 6 games into the season we all would be singing a different tune right now.

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

[SpartaChris]

Just a couple of things to remind some folks of. Neal has registered 0 tackles in five games for us. Jenkins production over the last 5 games still exceeds Neals. Jenkins has not missed a couple of games he's missed one. Neal on the other hand has missed 9. Jenkins is playing in an entirely different system in Philly(a 4-3) so production in Philly doesn't necessarily translate to the same as if he was with the Pack. No matter how you try to spin it, we are not better off without Jenkins.

Something to remember, Jenkins came from a 4-3 when we used to run it and prefers that to a 3-4 style. In the 4-3, the Defensive Ends (Jenkins) are your featured pass rushers and sack masters. In the 3-4, that honor goes to the line backers.

 

[SpartaChris]

Ok, it seems to me the Pack secondary is always playing for the pick and not just trying to defend the pass. You know trying to make the wr "look" open while being able to pop in and head the other direction. Sometimes this is great. Other times some moron like kyle orton eats us alive with crummy 5 yard dump offs. Is this the personnel or the scheme or neither?

A bit of both, coupled with an overwhelming desire by the Chiefs to rally around their interim head coach.

 

[SpartaChris]

Ok, let me first state I now feel the Packers would have been better keeping Jenkins this year (only because he stayed relatively healthy). He did leave several games early with "dings".

With that said, he's not actually drawing double teams in Philly that much, only when there is a spare blocker or the run play is going toward him. Offenses have too much to worry about with Cole and Babin. He's now playing on a FOUR man front that plays the wide nine. Not a THREE man front. Those who say he was double teamed in Green Bay giving Clay room to romp fail to realize with a 3 man rush 5 offensive lineman and a running back can double a couple of guys. This is why the Packers need to get pressure from the LBs or the secondary.

Green Bay's 3 guys' first responsibility is to "hold the line". Their second responsibility is to "get push". Their 3rd responsibility is to get to the QB. So the Packers don't want a speed pass rusher in that position any more. They want a great big guy who can man handle o-linemen.

I believe it would have been better to keep Jenkins because even though he isn't the big hole plugging guy the Packers need at that position, he's a far sight better than what they are left with now. Although, had he gone down with an injury 6 games into the season we all would be singing a different tune right now.

Hindsight is always 20/20

Well put.

I also read that Mike Neal still isn't fully recovered from his injury, and that he's still experiencing pain in his knee. Obviously this will affect his ability to get a good pass rush.

 

[SpartaChris]

For those who feel the Saints are worlds ahead of us, I'm cross posting this post I wrote from the Football Pros forum:

When you break it down, I don't know that you can say New Orleans defense isn't as bad as the Packers. They're both pretty comparable, except in one big stat.

Points Allowed:
New Orleans: 18th, 21.9 points per game
Green Bay: 14th, 21.2 points per game

Total Yards allowed
New Orleans: 25th, 366.1
Green Bay: 31st, 397.8

Pass Yards allowed:
New Orleans: 28th, 256.1
Green Bay: 31st, 289.4

Rush Yards Allowed:
New Orleans: 13th, 109.9
Green Bay: 12th, 108.4

Packers give up about 33 yards more per game through the air than New Orleans, but that can be attributed to teams almost always playing from behind. The two teams are close enough in those categories to make it almost negligible.

New Orleans has 4 more sacks on the year than the Packers do, but where Green Bay absolutely crushes New Orleans defensively is interceptions. The Packers lead the league with 27. New Orleans are tied for 28th with 8.

When you break it down, these two are essentially the same team, at least on paper. Only reason I'd give the tilt to the Packers is because New Orleans might have to travel to Lambeau Field if they want to make it to the Super Bowl, and they're notoriously bad on the road in the playoffs. If the game were to be held in New Orleans, I would give the tilt to the Saints.

http://footballpros.com/showthread.php/10236-Super-Bowl-picks

 

[realcaliforniacheese]

For those who feel the Saints are worlds ahead of us, I'm cross posting this post I wrote from the Football Pros forum:

When you break it down, I don't know that you can say New Orleans defense isn't as bad as the Packers. They're both pretty comparable, except in one big stat.

Points Allowed:
New Orleans: 18th, 21.9 points per game
Green Bay: 14th, 21.2 points per game

Total Yards allowed
New Orleans: 25th, 366.1
Green Bay: 31st, 397.8

Pass Yards allowed:
New Orleans: 28th, 256.1
Green Bay: 31st, 289.4

Rush Yards Allowed:
New Orleans: 13th, 109.9
Green Bay: 12th, 108.4

Packers give up about 33 yards more per game through the air than New Orleans, but that can be attributed to teams almost always playing from behind. The two teams are close enough in those categories to make it almost negligible.

New Orleans has 4 more sacks on the year than the Packers do, but where Green Bay absolutely crushes New Orleans defensively is interceptions. The Packers lead the league with 27. New Orleans are tied for 28th with 8.

When you break it down, these two are essentially the same team, at least on paper. Only reason I'd give the tilt to the Packers is because New Orleans might have to travel to Lambeau Field if they want to make it to the Super Bowl, and they're notoriously bad on the road in the playoffs. If the game were to be held in New Orleans, I would give the tilt to the Saints.

http://footballpros.com/showthread.php/10236-Super-Bowl-picks

those are good numbers. One last big point. Brees is like 1 and 9 including playoffs when temps are below 45 degrees since 2005. Never compare the stats of a Dome to a team who plays outdoors. Saints have had 9 dome games this year and the rest have been warm weather games. Look thier scoring and there is a significant dropoff from indoor to outdoor and they haven't and will not have to play out in the cold till they come to our house. Saints are a great offense but not in the cold. and thier defense is not top tier. get them in Lambeau in January, we bring our A game and they are ours.

 

[FrankRizzo]

....but where Green Bay absolutely crushes New Orleans defensively is interceptions. The Packers lead the league with 27. New Orleans are tied for 28th with 8.

OK, good stuff. Follow me here though: Points allowed are pretty close between both defenses right? Yes, check.

Now that' despite us getting a ton of interceptions.
That's despite our QB throwing half as many interceptions as the Saints QB.
So those are advantages to our defense, yet their points allowed are about the same, despite those advantages.

What happens when we don't get those interceptions? Trouble is what happens. In other words, the Saints defense hasn't come up with those interceptions, yet they're still not allowing more points or more yards than our defense.

All things considered, this is a pretty similar team than ours. Brees is an A+, so is Rodgers. Brees has had some trouble in cold weather, so has Rodgers. Both have had some good games in cold too. There's cold, and there's fricking freezing cold too..... big difference between the normal cold up there, and the super cold like that damn Giants game. When it gets super cold, or windy, then the running game becomes more important.

Again, if the 49ers hold the #2 seed, there's a good chance the Saints don't get past San Francisco though...... while we're going to have to beat either Dal, NYG, Detroit, or Atlanta.
It's gonna be fun & exciting and all I want for Christmas is another Lombardi trophy. Nothing else.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Well put.

I also read that Mike Neal still isn't fully recovered from his injury, and that he's still experiencing pain in his knee. Obviously this will affect his ability to get a good pass rush.

got a link??

 

[FrankRizzo]

got a link??

I read that article too.... he says most people wouldn't have come back yet from his injury.
Maybe he's a quick healer?

 

[13 Times Champs]

I read that article too.... he says most people wouldn't have come back yet from his injury.
Maybe he's a quick healer?

Ok, I'll cut him a little slack then.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Vic Ketchman:

The Packers need one more good pass-rusher. That, it would seem, might make the difference for a defense that is trying to peak its game for the postseason.

“We’re a better ‘nickel’ defense than we are an ‘Okie,’” Capers said on Friday.

What that statement means is that the five-defensive back “nickel” has become the Packers’ new base, instead of the 3-4 for which Capers is famous. Why so much “nickel?” Because the Packers are a faster team in pass-coverage when they’re playing “nickel,” and cover is what you have to do when rushing the passer isn’t your strength.

“Our four-man rush, we didn’t get enough,” Capers said.

Five-man rush schemes are up from 35 percent in 2010 to 43 percent this season, yet, sacks are down, from 47 in ’10 to 27 through 14 games this season. In other words, Capers has gotten more aggressive in trying to get to the quarterback this season, but with less success.

“We’re making the same calls; they’re just not working as well,” Capers said. “The scheme hasn’t changed much; we just haven’t executed it as well.”

That might all change, of course, should Capers find that elusive extra pass-rusher to complement linebacker Clay Matthews

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

. An extra rusher would help take blockers off Matthews and free him up to be the sack star he was a year ago.

Might linebacker Desmond Bishop

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

be that extra rusher? He’s expected to return to action this Sunday against the Bears, since sustaining a calf injury in Detroit on Thanksgiving Day.

“Bishop is one of our best playmakers. I hope Bishop coming back will give us another guy that can make plays,” Capers said.

Might rookie linebacker Vic So’oto be that extra rusher? So’oto was a sack sensation in the preseason, but he’s gotten almost no playing time since then, his regular season having been compromised by a nagging back injury.

“I’ve got hope for Vic. It hasn’t materialized but that doesn’t mean that with a young guy it doesn’t all of a sudden kick in and go,” Capers said.

 

[Jules]

Vic Ketchman:

The Packers need one more good pass-rusher. and free him up to be the sack star he was a year ago.

This is why before the trade deadline I suggested the Pack give up a third round pick or so for Robert Mathis of the Colts. He is a top pass rusher and used to playing vs. an elite pass rusher in Indy. I feel he could have thrived opposite Clay Matthews. Of course he would have to adjust to 3-4 but I believe he could have. He pretty much is built as an OLB. He was on the trade block rumor was since he is a FA.

I am a bit worried now. Not in like panic mode since I still think the Pack D can step it up. But, in many ways it defies logic to favor the Pack/Saints/Pats as the top 3 based on their defenses this year even though they have stellar QB play. Can a defense on one of these teams step it up? The playoffs are a new ball game people.

If defense wins championships then you will see something like Niners/Steelers in the SB. However I saw the 2006 Colts pull it off at the right time, a turnaround is possible.

I am just a bit concerned now. I think too many feel certain QBs are going to carry teams to a title this year. What if those QBs get shut down by a good D? Luckily for the Pack the NFC is not loaded with top defenses. And I am still baffled as to why the Pack D went from the top to the bottom in a year.

Last years final 4 teams all had top defenses.

 

[Southpaw]

This is why before the trade deadline I suggested the Pack give up a third round pick or so for Robert Mathis of the Colts.

While I'd love for a late season addition on the defensive line, I don't see Thompson doing it no matter how glaring the need is. Also I don't see Mathis being that guy if we did. He's not a 3-4 defensive end.

We need a guy like Marcell Dareus. I was actually hoping he'd would have fallen in the draft so we could get him.

 

[Jules]

While I'd love for a late season addition on the defensive line, I don't see Thompson doing it no matter how glaring the need is. Also I don't see Mathis being that guy if we did. He's not a 3-4 defensive end.

We need a guy like Marcell Dareus. I was actually hoping he'd would have fallen in the draft so we could get him.

Maybe Ware? Cowboys miss out on the playoffs and Jerry Jones go nuts and cuts him. Pack pick him up and there you have it.

I am joking of course. It's tough to have two elite pass rushers though let alone one. Pack are lucky to have Clay. They just need another decent enough guy or two to help out.......

 

[PFanCan]

Ok, I'll cut him a little slack then.

I won't. Neal has been useless thus far. His stat line shows perfect zeros across the board. One would expect that after as many games as he's been in, he would have an assist, or a tackle, or a rush on the QB. Anything! But, no.

At least he is consistent.

 

[13 Times Champs]

We all know Neal has been useless. What we don't know is where he is physically. No question production from him would help a great deal.

Oh by the way, Jenkins just made a nice play against the Cowboys.

 

[Croak]

Must've been one of the whole 2 tackles he had during the game.

 

[whoartthou]

OK, good stuff. Follow me here though: Points allowed are pretty close between both defenses right? Yes, check.

Now that' despite us getting a ton of interceptions.
That's despite our QB throwing half as many interceptions as the Saints QB.
So those are advantages to our defense, yet their points allowed are about the same, despite those advantages.

What happens when we don't get those interceptions? Trouble is what happens. In other words, the Saints defense hasn't come up with those interceptions, yet they're still not allowing more points or more yards than our defense.

All things considered, this is a pretty similar team than ours. Brees is an A+, so is Rodgers. Brees has had some trouble in cold weather, so has Rodgers. Both have had some good games in cold too. There's cold, and there's fricking freezing cold too..... big difference between the normal cold up there, and the super cold like that damn Giants game. When it gets super cold, or windy, then the running game becomes more important.

Again, if the 49ers hold the #2 seed, there's a good chance the Saints don't get past San Francisco though...... while we're going to have to beat either Dal, NYG, Detroit, or Atlanta.
It's gonna be fun & exciting and all I want for Christmas is another Lombardi trophy. Nothing else.

Rodgers is superior in cold weather compared to Brees IMO.

Yes there is a HUGE difference between cold weather and FREEZING THUNDRA COLD. I am pretty sure in that freezing cold game against the giants, rodgers lit the giants up