Offensive Talent

[swhitset]

How is it not fair to say that the Packers could have done more to improve the WR group? While the FA WR's available weren't overly plentiful, there were quite a few available that in my mind improve the team. Trades also can be a wonderful way to improve your team.

While I understand people saying "what else was Gute suppose to do, he spent his *** on the defense and who else were they suppose to obtain to improve the receiving group". There are always ways, but first and most importantly, you have to see a need. I for one don't think the Packers and some posters, actually think that there was a need to improve the WR group. So all of this discussion is really moot, if a need was never perceived to exist. by the people making the decisions.

I can’t speak to what Gute thinks... but I definitely think there is a need. I just believe they did hat was possible at the time without putting the team in trouble cap wise etc... Clark still needs to be re-signed and I really didn’t see any free agent wideouts that got me excited. As hard as it may be to wait... I think that may be what is necessary. I do want to see a WR drafted high next year.. and in the meantime, We have to hope that MVS develops into a great deep threat. That being said, if Gute can find a veteran at a price we can afford, by all means go get him.

 

[Do7]

Actually, what is really a reach is you saying that they all have injury histories, to seemingly try and make it sound like they would have been bad options. Check their injury histories, I did.

I never said they were better or worse players than Cobb, the Packers didn't attempt to resign Cobb, so your point is moot. 2 posters said the options in Free Agency were very slim and asked me what WR's I would have considered signing in Free Agency, I gave them a list of 5.

Cobb missed at least 23 full games in 8 seasons and also played many injured or got knocked out of some he was credited as playing in. I hated to see Cobb go, but I understand his label of injury prone and why the Packers decided to move on. I don't see quite that level with all 5 guys you said also have an injury history.

All that said, I probably would have been fine with Cobb at $5 M/year, but I actually thought Gute was going to find a better option, he didn't IMO.

Okay outside of last year, when has people been throwing around injury prone in regards to Cobb? Because I sure as hell don't recall anyone bringing up Cobb's injuries as a concern. I'll be more than happy to check but I'm pretty confident it was only until last year where his injuries became an issue.

And as I mentioned before when you factor in those 23 games came from last year in which he missed, 7 if i'm not mistaken, and then 10 when he had a fractured fibula in 2013 against Baltimore as I've mentioned. So minus those, he's only missed around 6 games in the course of all those years.

I already explained why I brought up injury history, which was honestly a minor thing in my original post considering how I said I didn't see any of the players you listed as upgrades over Cobb. So explain to me how these players are upgrades over Cobb which was my main point that they weren't.

 

[Dantés]

Okay outside of last year, when has people been throwing around injury prone in regards to Cobb? Because I sure as hell don't recall anyone bringing up Cobb's injuries as a concern. I'll be more than happy to check but I'm pretty confident it was only until last year where his injuries became an issue.

And as I mentioned before when you factor in those 23 games came from last year in which he missed, 7 if i'm not mistaken, and then 10 when he had a fractured fibula in 2013 against Baltimore as I've mentioned. So minus those, he's only been injured around 6 times in the course of all those years.

I already explained why I brought up injury history, which was honestly a minor thing in my original post considering how I said I didn't see any of the players you listed as upgrades over Cobb. So explain to me how these players are upgrades over Cobb which was my main point that they weren't.

Literally for years.

 

[swhitset]

Okay outside of last year, when has people been throwing around injury prone in regards to Cobb? Because I sure as hell don't recall anyone bringing up Cobb's injuries as a concern. I'll be more than happy to check but I'm pretty confident it was only until last year where his injuries became an issue.

And as I mentioned before when you factor in those 23 games came from last year in which he missed, 7 if i'm not mistaken, and then 10 when he had a fractured fibula in 2013 against Baltimore as I've mentioned. So minus those, he's only been injured around 6 times in the course of all those years.

I already explained why I brought up injury history, which was honestly a minor thing in my original post considering how I said I didn't see any of the players you listed as upgrades over Cobb. So explain to me how these players are upgrades over Cobb which was my main point that they weren't.

By his own admission, he played the entire year that Jordy was out with a badly injured shoulder that made him completely ineffective.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Literally for years.

Was going to say, I hardly remember an injury report that he wasn't on.

Granted, he played through many of them, but how effective was he?

 

[Dantés]

Was going to say, I hardly remember an injury report that he wasn't on.

Granted, he played through many of them, but how effective was he?

Each season was a microcosm of his career-- a strong start rendered less effective over time by nagging injuries.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So explain to me how these players are upgrades over Cobb which was my main point that they weren't.

I never said they were better or worse players than Cobb, the Packers didn't attempt to resign Cobb, so your point is moot.

All that said, I probably would have been fine with Cobb at $5 M/year, but I actually thought Gute was going to find a better option, he didn't IMO.

Again, I will refer you to my previous responses to your obvious desire to debate me over something I did not say. Maybe you want to debate that with Gute or other posters, but I never said any of them were upgrades over Cobb. However, in that debate, be prepared to talk about his injury history, because you seem to be passing that off as a non-factor, yet want to make it a factor when talking about who could have been his potential replacement.

 

[Do7]

By his own admission, he played the entire year that Jordy was out with a badly injured shoulder that made him completely ineffective.

But hold on. He didn't miss those games right? I think I'm having a misunderstanding of what you guys mean by injury prone? What do you guys consider as injury prone. For me I see a guy like Matthews as injury prone. Cobb may have had his fair share of injuries, but I never thought of him as injury prone.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Each season was a microcosm of his career-- a strong start rendered less effective over time by nagging injuries.

Yes, a now 29 year old, playing in what appears to be the body of a 35 year old. But he was like what, 20 when he began his career in the NFL?

 

[Dantés]

Yes, a now 29 year old, playing in what appears to be the body of a 35 year old. But he was like what, 20 when he began his career in the NFL?

Yeah-- super young.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I can’t speak to what Gute thinks... but I definitely think there is a need. I just believe they did hat was possible at the time without putting the team in trouble cap wise etc... Clark still needs to be re-signed and I really didn’t see any free agent wideouts that got me excited. As hard as it may be to wait... I think that may be what is necessary. I do want to see a WR drafted high next year.. and in the meantime, We have to hope that MVS develops into a great deep threat. That being said, if Gute can find a veteran at a price we can afford, by all means go get him.

I think there will be 3 approaches to WR next offseason and it will all be dictated on what happens this season. This would be based on Gute doing nothing between now and the end of the year.

1. 2-3 WR's Step up: Packers sit tight, because I was way off the mark and Allison, MVS and possibly someone else besides Adams prove me to be a Debbie Downer and have really solid seasons.
2. 1 WR steps up: one receiver not named Adams (NNA) steps up and shines. Then I think just drafting one high (Rd 1-2) is sufficient.
3. 0 WR's NNA step up: If that is the case, Gute has to be signing at least one decent FA WR and also drafting one.

 

[Do7]

Again, I will refer you to my previous responses to your obvious desire to debate me over something I did not say. Maybe you want to debate that with Gute or other posters, but I never said any of them were upgrades over Cobb. However, in that debate, be prepared to talk about his injury history, because you seem to be passing that off as a non-factor, yet want to make it a factor when talking about who could have been his potential replacement.

Look dude I'm gonna stop right here because it's apparent there was a misunderstanding and contrary to belief I'm not trying to debate you. I thought you were listing some better options than Cobb, and I merely chimed in as to my thoughts, and from there it escalated. But apparently you weren't saying that, even though it kinda seem like you were by going over his injury history, which I interpreted as you arguing as to how those receivers were better options, hence why I kept asking you to explain to why you thought they were upgrades.

 

[Do7]

Literally for years.

I certainly don't recall anyone making issue about this honestly. I'm looking through the archives, and so far outside of last year no one has said anything about this. But I'll take your word for it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Look dude I'm gonna stop right here because it's apparent there was a misunderstanding and contrary to belief I'm not trying to debate you. I thought you were listing some better options than Cobb, and I merely chimed in as to my thoughts, and from there it escalated. But apparently you weren't saying that, even though it kinda seem like you were by going over his injury history, which I interpreted as you arguing as to how those receivers were better options, hence why I kept asking you to explain to why you thought they were upgrades.

No problem....Dude.

 

[Do7]

No problem....Dude.

I post this playfully.

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[mradtke66]

Yes and I am fully aware of that and didn't counter with Amos, Smith, Smith and Turner as 4 examples of FA's that so far have panned out. We can debate about what can happen on either side of the coin, doesn't make us look any smarter, nor does using hind sight, just means we are aware of the fact that there are unknowns. Whether past FA signings have worked or not worked, shouldn't totally effect how you conduct business moving forward.

Then stop bringing it up. You look like you're waving your hands to distract from the argument.

He is not arguing against bringing in a FA. Just pointing out that your argument of (summarized) "Go Get a Guy," is easier said than done.

What was I willing to give up 6 months ago or what would I be willing to give up now?

It's now, then, and the future, but again, I think Mondio is talking about which FA would you have been okay with NOT signing this past offseason.

6 Months ago, I would have gladly given up signing Turner

Which WR would we have been able to sign for equivalent money? That's not snark--I wasn't in love with any of the FA WRs this offseason. Turner got paid pretty well, but is it #2 WR money?

Also remember that he's listed as the number 1 pass protecting guard in the league right now. And we just lost our other starter at guard. With the benefit of hindsight, would that have been smart? I'd argue no, and I wasn't a fan of the signing Turner.

or made cuts earlier, Daniels, Taylor, etc. What would I give up now?

Taylor's cap number was 5.4MM this year with a 3.75MM dead cap number. Who are you signing for 1.7MM?

Daniels saved us some coin. Are you prepared to potentially NOT resign Clark? That might be the cost here.

If we could make a trade with a team for a decent #2 or #3 WR, a 4th or 5th round, as long as it wasn't just a one year rental.

That is a reasonable position to take. I'd be in favor of it. I bet Mondio would be too, but I'd hate to speak for him too loudly.

Now, which team has a dumb enough GM to trade a #2 receiver for (what looks to be) a late 4th round pick? Would he also be willing to buy this bridge I have for sale?

Joking aside, I wouldn't mind trying to bolster the WR crew via a trade. I just think we'd over spend for what is available right now.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think there will be 3 approaches to WR next offseason and it will all be dictated on what happens this season. This would be based on Gute doing nothing between now and the end of the year.

1. 2-3 WR's Step up: Packers sit tight, because I was way off the mark and Allison, MVS and possibly someone else besides Adams prove me to be a Debbie Downer and have really solid seasons.
2. 1 WR steps up: one receiver not named Adams (NNA) steps up and shines. Then I think just drafting one high (Rd 1-2) is sufficient.
3. 0 WR's NNA step up: If that is the case, Gute has to be signing at least one decent FA WR and also drafting one.

Gluten didn’t have the capital to add a WR in FA this year, and unless something spectacular happens with MVS or someone already playing, I expect he’ll add through FA. That said, I have no idea what the WR FA market looks like.

I don’t want to be a Debbie Downer either, but don’t see anyone behind Adams becoming a solid #2. I hope I’m wrong.

Drafting a WR early is an option, but those guys can be hit and miss, so I’d personally prefer FA. Well, anyone not named Antonio Brown that is......

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Then stop bringing it up. You look like you're waving your hands to distract from the argument.

He is not arguing against bringing in a FA. Just pointing out that your argument of (summarized) "Go Get a Guy," is easier said than done.

I'm not going to fault you for being late to the discussion, nor for getting things incorrect due to not realistically being able to follow every post I or someone else makes. My position of thinking the Packers WR group was too inexperienced, unproven and comprised of mostly later round or UDFA's is the same now as it was 6 months ago. I wasn't confident in them then, nor am I now. Thus, I have been preaching signing a FA for a long time. So yes, that was part of the discussion then and continues to be.

Which WR would we have been able to sign for equivalent money? That's not snark--I wasn't in love with any of the FA WRs this offseason. Turner got paid pretty well, but is it #2 WR money?

Billy Turner was paid $28 M for 4 years, that, along with cutting Daniels would have been plenty of money to sign a #2 FA WR off my list of 5, 2 of them without having to cut Daniels. I agree with you, using hindsight right now to say Turner now appears to be a good signing, isn't really fair to bring into the discussion. Seems to me most posters here lambasted Gute for signing him anyway. I actually would still say knowing what I know now, I would still have preferred a WR being signed over Turner.

I'll be honest, its annoying to keep repeating myself as new people jump into the "debate", I've said my peace and respect Mondio's opinion, as well as anyone's, even if we don't agree.

I'm looking forward to the next 13+ games and hope that every one of our WR's proves me to be an idiot.

 

[AmishMafia]

I'll be honest, its annoying to keep repeating myself as new people jump into the debate, I've said my peace and respect Mondio's opinion, as well as anyone's, even if we don't agree.

What the hell is going on here lately?! Over the weekend i saw 2 posters actually change their minds on an issue after a fact based counter-argument. Now respect and politeness? Signs and wonders.

I guess 3 straight wins to start a new coaching era has us all a little off.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

What the hell is going on here lately?! Over the weekend i saw 2 posters actually change their minds on an issue after a fact based counter-argument. Now respect and politeness? Signs and wonders.

I guess 3 straight wins to start a new coaching era has us all a little off.

You taught us well, we are all embracing the love of the Amish!

 

[Sunshinepacker]

True. I’m assuming by “young” you mean our trio of draftees?
How many are starting of those 3 on Thursday night? How many of those 3 are in our mid term objective? That’s more a statement

Nobodies criticizing the past. But things have changed there and changed recently and for worse. You have to adapt.

I would think that, based on last year, ESB should be part of the intermediate plan and MVS is certainly part of the intermediate plan. Both those players are young and VERY athletic. I understand the desire to get the mystery box WR high in the draft but I really haven't seen anything from MVS that says he can't be a very good #2 WR and ESB also showed enough last year that I think it's too early to say he can't be a valuable receiver. Sure, if the best player where the Packers are drafting is a WR, then draft a WR; I just don't think it needs to be a priority (and there should be zero temptation to take a TE high in the draft). If anything I would imagine the biggest need on offense is a replacement for Bulaga if they let him walk.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Interesting. Based on 'what have you done for me lately?', i.e., this season, and taking yards as the measuring stick, Adams, at #30 in the league has the most of the four teams. Running back, however, has Jones at #16 (with the lowest YPC) and the 49er's Breida at #9, the Colts' Mack at #3, and the Titans' Henry at #11.

I completely understand that the above is one of a hundred ways to evaluate, but it did seem surprising in many areas.

I mean yeah, it's one of a hundred but it's also kind of terrible. By those standards John Ross is the third best WR and Marlon Mack is the 3rd best RB.

Perhaps a better way to look at it would be, would you be happy to trade Adams straight-up for any of the receivers on those teams? Cause all those teams would be happy to trade for Adams. The RBs are closer; I think Jones is certainly better than any of those guys but I could understand why some might disagree (except Henry, he can't catch a cold). And even if you wanted to pretend all those skill position guys were the same talent, the Packers still have, by FAR, the best QB and yet all those teams have scored more.

As I've said, the defenses the Packers have played have something to do with that (a good portion actually) but I think the talent level of the Packers offense more than makes up for the difference in schedule.

 

[mradtke66]

I'm looking forward to the next 13+ games and hope that every one of our WR's proves me to be an idiot.

Ah, but there is nuance! I like nuance.

It's possible, I say even likely, that WR ends up being our weakest link this year. And to say Gute made reasonable and correct decisions with his resources this year. Which is the position I'm more taking.

 

[OldSchool101]

I just have my doubts that its going to happen anytime soon with the current group of receivers.
.

That’s a big part of our issues there on O.
There is a chance that a couple receivers eventually excel, but wouldn’t it be a bummer if it takes them until next season. We have an opportunity staring at us now.
We never doubted we’d be better next year, at least many posters were in agreement it would take 2020 area. But we’re now faced with a possible top 5 scoring Defense. That changes things for me as far as maybe signing that 1-2 more guys that could put us in elite company contention.
I already believe we are playoff bound with this team, but I’m not convinced we’re a SB caliber franchise just yet. We’re likely a stellar ILB or WR away from being dominant. Signing Both now would likely put us in the 12-4 or 13-3 arena and likely several games at Lambeau. Maybe even a bye.
I’m not expecting both, but I would love to see another O weapon who gets this O excited again. I’m also not interested in a rental. I like the idea of a lower per annual 2-4 year option than blowing our *** on a 1 yr deal.
Any WR/Agent watching this team right now has got to be seeing the difference in GB and knows there’s a very legit shot at deep run.

 

[swhitset]

But hold on. He didn't miss those games right? I think I'm having a misunderstanding of what you guys mean by injury prone? What do you guys consider as injury prone. For me I see a guy like Matthews as injury prone. Cobb may have had his fair share of injuries, but I never thought of him as injury prone.

I think that’s the point... you were mistaken. He was seemingly hurt more than he was healthy. He is a great guy and willing to play through a lot of pain apparently, but the injuries always reduced his effectiveness.