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New Defense

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by FrankRizzo, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    I've been thinking about our defense, and how our 3-4 defense has not fooled anyone anymore because those schemes, that method, has grown from about 6, 7, 8 teams to now almost half of the NFL. And because our personnel is inferior or out coaching is inferior.... of all the 3-4 defenses, we rank below average under Capers.
    Partly due to the youth movement, partly due to injuries, partly due to the scheme.

    It's made it harder to get those great OLB's who were tweeners for a 4-3 DE as more and more teams are now looking for the OLB types for the 3-4 and the DE types for the 3-4.

    This is why I want a DC who creates the NEXT big thing in a base defense.

    Whether it's a 5-2, or what, something.

    I've been thinking about that lately....... a 5-2 can be great if you have 2 good instinctive LBs like a Matthews & another fluid one...... they can still blitz, but with 5 bigger bodies on the DL occupying the 5 OL, you get tons of one-on-ones where the DL should be able to beat the OL more often, and you get less 2nd level blocks on the LBers so they can flow freeer and faster.

    Just a thought.... I've been working on lately.

    Opposing offenses would not have any other experience dealing with it.
    If we're successful with it, after next year, a team or two will copy it. Then a few more.......

    I think you would want a DL like this:

    LE- Nick Perry, Ezra Johnson
    LDT- Mike Daniels, Jerel Worthy
    NT- Pickett, Josh Boyd
    RDT- Datone Jones, CJ Wilson
    RDE- Everson Griffen (FA), Mike Neal

    LLB- Clay Matthews, O'Brien Schofield (FA)
    RLB- AJ Hawk, Michael Sam or Dee Ford

    S- Pollard
    S- Burnett
    CB- Shields
    CB- TrayMon


    CB- Hayward
    CB- Hyde

    On 1st downs, you move those LBers all over the place.
    On passing downs, you take out Pickett and add Casey Hayward at nickel, Micah Hyde in dime for Pickett.

    With 5 DL on many plays against 5 OL, those OL have to be ready to account for each of the DLmen.
    But Capers will still drop the occasional DL into a zone and look for clogging the short passing lanes like Raji did to the Bears in that 2010 NFC Title game.
    Keep the offensive lines guessing, but having them facing bigger dudes and not 240 pound LBers so much.

    Get Matthews matched up more on TEs or even RBs.
    Mismatch-City Baby.

    And guys like Daniels, Datone, Perry and Neal even should be able to blow up and beat one-on-one blockers on dropbacks.

    What about the old Buddy Ryan 4-6 defense?
    I want our defense to become ultra-aggressive.... attacking.
    I want to cause destruction. Bruised opponents. Turnovers. Blowouts.
    Let's innovate.

    I think there is actually more talent on our defense than we think.
    Let's utilize them.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I love to hear creative ideas how to use our guys. Much better than a plain suggested move to 4-3 for the sake of a change.
     
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  3. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    The Double Eagle defense is great for stuffing the run.

    In today’s NFL, this defense would get destroyed by the precision passing and spread type offenses. It is nearly impossible to run zone coverage out of the 5-2 for obvious reasons, which allows wide open gaps on the intermediate and deep balls, if you are going to run this defense you better have at minimum 5 all-pro caliber players on the defense:

    1. DL – at least one guy who is so good at causing pressure at all times that he is either in the backfield or being chipped/double teamed allowing another palyer to be his man one on one

    2. LB - again one linebacker who is awesome at causing pressure AND has the ability to read the offense and break out of his blitz to interrupt the short passing game

    3. DB – This one is even tougher, you need two “island” CB to cover their receiver and one Safety who is all over the field.

    The packers have one of those in clay and that is it.

    If you are going to run a 5-2 as your base defense your front 7 has to be amazingly good at getting pressure on passing plays or even an average QB is going to pick your defense apart.

    Edit: for the record I like the creative thinking as well, but unfortunately due to the things I pointed out, I just don't believe the Pack could be successful running the 5-2, I honestly don't think any team in the league could do it in this day and age.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
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  4. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Sam Shields is certainly capable of being an island CB.
    Dammit Nick Collins was that safety.

    I like those 5 Defensive Linemen.
    Daniels, Datone, those guys were drafted because they could penetrate. Same with Worthy although I don't see it.
    Neal and Perry also are supposed to be able to get to QBs around the edge and also have that power.

    I think Clay can do anything.

    Not sure of the other LB yet.... Hawk, Borland, a rookie?

    I want to lead the way with something new and not schemed and scouted much by opposing teams.
     
  5. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Am I the only one here who wants our defense to become not just average or good, but wants them to strive to dominate?
    Become physical.
    Become renowned for crushing QBs?
    Hammering WRs and RBs?

    Remember this kind of safety?

    Here's available now:
    This hit, legal, changed the game.. the AFC Title game Ravens at Patriots last season.
    Did we get any hits like this on Kaepernick, Davis, Crabtree, Gore this playoff or last playoff?

    Reminds me a bit of Brian Dawkins, just a little faster and not as short/wide.

     
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  6. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    I was really afraid this was going to be another "change to a 4-3 defense" thread, but it wasn't. This is a really interesting idea.
     
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  7. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Thanks.

    Yeah let's get creative.
    Think OUTSIDE THE BOX.

    If we want to be great, to innovate, it might help to invent something or at least throw something out there that's new for current offenses to face.

    Take it to them.

    I want to see opposing players battered and bruised, and I want our defense to become mentioned by everyone when asked "who has the most physical defense in the league"?
    Nobody in the league would say us now.
    Attitude and scheme..... and the right players.
    Don't need 9 Pro Bowlers.... but if you have enough good & great ones, the sum of the parts... could create a handful of mythical "Pro Bowlers" as they rack up sacks and turnovers and scores.

    Turn Perry and Daniels and Matthews and Griffen or Schofield loose after QBs.
    Become the hunters.


    Check out the 3:35 mark on Schofield.
    That's against a healthy rookie #1 pick Derek Sherrod.
    Just watch.....

    He's not playing much on the #1 NFL Defense Seattle right now, who scooped him up the minute the Cardinals made the mistake of letting him go.

    Watch this vs Denver in the preseason. Wasn't Manning, but watch the speed and it looks like the starting RT for Denver. http://www.seahawks.com/videos-phot...s-fumble/9f1f55f7-c36a-4f19-b614-0388effd5f3a

    He's going to be a bargain free agent after the Super Bowl.
    I Want this guy in Green & Gold.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
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  8. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Yes, you are the only Packers fan who wants their defense to be great and dominate. All other Packers fans want it to suck. I remember hating that fantastic '96 defense!

    I agree with Ogsponge and think it "would get destroyed by the precision passing and spread type offense" particularly if the 5 DL rush almost all the time. And if Perry and Neal don’t rush, it’s basically the 3-4 base with those two as OLBs and Clay as an ILB. I don’t think they can afford to use him there - they need a compliment to his pass rush not his absence in it. And if they’re regularly having one or more of the 4 down linemen get into coverage, you are putting them at a disadvantage from the snap and IMO Perry and Neal struggled in coverage from the standing position. They'd be worse in coverage starting with their hands on the ground.

    Also the Packers don’t play base the majority of the time. They play 2-4-5 the most and the OP says in the nickel Heyward replaces Pickett (and then replaces Pickett again in the dime). So in the nickel he’d have a 4-2-5. It seems to me that would be more predictable than the 2-4-5. Players standing up have an easier time getting into coverage and can be more unpredictable rushing the passer.

    Get a good safety next to Burnett. Have someone emerge opposite Matthews to get pressure and get an enforcer at ILB (or 2 of the 3) and they won’t need a radical change in scheme.
     
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  9. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Frank gets points for including Ezra Johnson as a backup. That's a nice touch.
     
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  10. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    This, this right flocking here, the defense does not need a radical change, they need to stop playing this idiotic defense and start playing a 3-4. This 2-4-5 defense is flocking horrendous. It leads to absolutely zero pressure 90% of the time, which leads to receivers finding holes in the zone because the QB has all flocking day to throw the ball.

    This defense would improve dramatically if Dom would never trot out this craptastic formation again.
     
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  11. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Only us 40+ guys caught that.
    I wanted a place for the Six-Shooter on this defense too.
    We need a guy, an attitude, like that on the defense.
     
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  12. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    You know the sad thing about that, Frank? We'd make him take his hand out of the dirt and his game would go in the crapper.
     
  13. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

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    As far as the 3-4 base defense goes, I would support us keeping it. Though I do applaud you for bringing up an interesting alternative. The 5-2 defense is not a new concept. The Arizona Cardinals have ran some variations of it for a few years now. As you can imagine they were very stout against the run and mediocre against the pass.

    The thing I would like to see though is some new concepts. Maybe just running the 4-3 for a few plays or drives a game like we did against the 49ers with some success. Obviously though, the 49ers were confused as they would never have game planned for it.

    The Ravens 3-4 hybrid 4-3 defense carried them to a championship last year. The Arizona Cardinals 3-4 hybrid 5-2 defense ranked #1 in the NFL against the run last year. We won our last championship with the #2 ranked defense that was so supposedly hard to understand some of our own players on D were confused. (And still are down the field with less success now)

    Teams didn't know what was coming at them when the Packers switched to the 3-4. They didn't know how to game plan against them. They looked confused on the field. I've only seen that once since that year (49ers game last month with a new concept) So why not throw another new concept in Capers? You wouldn't have to run it all the time, and if it doesn't work you can trash it. But I think a new wrinkle couldn't hurt...
     
  14. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Have any of you guys heard Ted say something like this, when asked about a prospect being better for a 34 or 43 defense:
    "Well we just think he's a good football player" "We think this is a good player in any scheme", etc.... something like that.

    We all know very well how our defense has performed, since 2009 when Capers was named the DC.
    We've had one season of playoff success.
    Look at the 5 Drafts Teddy has conducted.

    Look at the players selected on defense in these 5 drafts since Capers was here:
    1st Rounders: Raji, Matthews, Perry, Datone (4)
    2nd Rounders: Worthy, Hayward, Neal (3)
    3rd Rounders: Burnett
    4th Rounders: Daniels, McMillian, House
    5th Rounders: T Manning

    This is 12 defensive guys in the last 5 drafts, top-5 round picks.
    And 7 premium picks (rounds 1 & 2)
    5 are DL guys
    3 are LBers
    4 are DBs

    I only stopped at round 5, the round Seattle plucked Richard Sherman in that 2011 draft, after Teddy selected our own CB House.

    Also of note, I don't think we've signed a single significant free agent on defense in this timespan. None.
    Teddy rolls ALL his eggs out there in this Draft Basket. We all know this.
     
  15. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    You alluded to it a few times: Confused, confusing, hard to understand, etc.

    That's a key component of a defense. SMARTS. EXPERIENCE.

    When Teddy gives Capers so many rookies, these guys have to first learn to walk. They have to learn the speed of the NFL... all kinds of new things..... they aren't able to get the system down nearly as soon as a veteran, like a Bernard Pollard or Donte Whitner, or O'Brien Schofield who has played in the Arizona and Seattle defenses the past 3 years.

    Whatever we run, you can afford to bring in guys like that. And you should. I hope Capers holds a gun to Teddy's head and says "You get me 2, 3, or 4 of these cheap-to-medium priced veterans or else I walk".

    Whatever the scheme he rolls out, mixes up, if you give him a couple of good veteran additions, I think we can be so much better this season.

    I still want to see some new wrinkles though, to confuse and overwhelm offenses.
     
  16. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

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    How come we overcame this problem than in 2009? More veteran additions? Also, how come our offense never has this problem? Or other young teams (Patriots) around the league?

    B.J. Raji and Morgan Burnett should have enough experience right? How come they were outplayed by younger guys with less experience like Mike Daniels and Micah Hyde?

    I'm not against free agent signings, I actually agree with you, a few priced right would make sense. I'm just interested to hear your opinion because I don't know the answers to these questions..
     
  17. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    I've spent a lot of time thinking about a 2-5 type front. Basically like a 24 but you're trading a nickel back for an OLB. Like Frank's 52 package you'd have Neal and Perry at the edges, but Clay would have more freedom to attack from wherever.
     
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  18. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Raji was frequently employed in a different role... until he quit on the team and then he just sucked. Comparing Burnett a safety, to Hyde a nickelback is a bit of a stretch.

    Mike Daniels has a big year ahead of him, he was very productive last year but can he do it with starter' snaps.
     
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  19. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Unless Im mistaken only 2 of these guys were taken more than 3 years ago. Perry House and Neal have been snakebit and Datone just started. I see 5 guys on that list who could really take off if they just stay healthy.
     
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  20. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    "Remember this kind of safety?"

    Yes sir...check out my avatar. I hear ya brotha. It's been a long time since we had a player cause receivers to consistently get gator arms. Chuck did. Guys wanted no part of going over the middle.
     
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  21. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Yeah, I appreciate the interesting idea. I wondered about this as well, but I also came to the conclusion that a short quick passing game is going to give it fits.

    Perhaps Dom is on his way to the next new thing, as Easy points out - the 2-5 is an interesting idea. We just need on LB who is really adept in pass coverage. The thing I like about it, yes, you don't have the big guys up front and an LB is easier to block than a DL - but you just have no idea who of the 5 LBs are coming. I'm not sure if we run it occassionally, it is usually a 2-4-5.
     
  22. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well done, Frank. I have to say it is awesome to read an informative, creative solution to a problem. You obviously put a lot of time and consideration into that thought and I couldn't agree more.
     
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  23. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Well what I like about it, it has some more cover ability than the 34 base, the same misdirection a 34 presents and you can really unleash Matthews. Also it would provide a stronger front against the run than the 24.

    I was also thinking about a new psycho front.

    In the past we used a DL, 2 OLbs and 3 ILBs or sometimes an extra nickel back or safety. Once teams figured it out it wasn't very effective. Now we could go out there with say Daniels as the lone DL, Hawk, 3 OLBs and Datone Jones playing with his head up.

    In the old scheme you had an average weight of 250 pounds among the LBs as a group, or less depending on personnel. If we try the psycho with the personnel group we have now, the LBs would have an average weight of 263+ pounds. This group presents a much more versatile front and a much more potent pass rush. Of course I doubt we hang onto Mike Neal, OLBs have an inflated value right now.
     
  24. Ace

    Ace Cheesehead

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    This is a great idea, really like the creativity. In this scenario though seeing as the secondary is so crucial, wouldn't we be better served to have more of a cover guy at Safety instead of Pollard who is more of a thumper?

    I would love to see Dom come up with something like this. It would fully utilize the talent we currently have on the defensive line as well as free up Clay to make plays all over. Also in this scenario I'd be all for resigning Sam based on how much emphasis it would put on the Corners being able to be on an island.
     
  25. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I don't think five DL makes any sense except on short yardage plays. If Hyde doesn't switch to, and start at safety I'd like to see whatever alignment Capers uses most have Hyde and Heyward on the field along with the two starting CBs. I don't see either as outside cover corners but both have play making ability and that was sorely missed this season. Right now I'd add the best safety (again if Hyde isn't starting there) rather than another LB because I don't think they have an abundance of LBs who can cover.
     

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