1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

My realization on how fans view TT

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by wils0646, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. wils0646

    wils0646 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    187
    Ratings:
    +1
    On the record, I think TT had an excellent draft last year but has made both poor and good decisions in his tenure. I think the jury is still out on him and we need to at least give him a few more years to judge the man.

    Anyway, I've come to realize what most of the TT "haters" have in common. They all think Favre is bigger than the team. They also believe Favre still is a top 5 QB. A lot of them seem to show resentment toward TT because he is not doing enough for.....Brett.....not the GB Packers.

    Wait a minute...isn't the GM of a football team supposed to look out for what's best for the team as a whole and for the future? Why sign meaningless FAs that will just take over cap space?

    Favre is by far my favorite player on the Packers...but nobody's bigger than the team. Nobody.

    Here are the posts I'd like to point out (who definitely feel hate towards TT):

    From refpacker:
    From pyledriver80:
    I've just noticed this tendency towards people that hate TT. They think TT is pushing Favre out of the league. They think the only shot at a SB is with Brett.

    Face it people...the Packers will not make it to the Super Bowl if TT signed a few free agents. TT is building for the future and fixing the mess Sherman gave him. Our young players showed promise last year and I'm excited for a post-Favre Packers. A lot of you aren't.
     
  2. scharles

    scharles Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    140
    Ratings:
    +0
    Favre is a once in a lifetime QB and the face of the Packers. I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to see the Packers without Favre under center. I'm young, 21 to be exact, and have no memories of the Packers without Favre. It is definately going to a heartbreaker when he steps away, that is why I would love nothing but to see him leave on top, it is what he deserves.
     
  3. wils0646

    wils0646 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    187
    Ratings:
    +1
    Sure, I would love to win the SB, but it's just not feasible this year, IMO. I loved when Favre came back...but we have to realize that the future Packers will not have him on their team. That's what TT's building on right now. Let's love the last years of his career...but don't expect a GM to bend over backwards for him.
     
  4. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    Wils0646, I think you have missed big time on your assumption that all anti-TT individuals think Favre is bigger than the team. It is unfair of you to even say they think Favre is above the team, because I have yet to meet ANY packer fan who believes, or has ever said: Favre is above the team.

    IMO, it is more appropriate to say that the anti-TT people think the best shot the Packers will have at the Superbowl is with Favre behind C.

    History shows it is hard to argue with them: Marino left the Dolphins, and the Dolphins struggled to find a QB to replace him. Elway left the Broncos, and the Broncos haven't had a good QB yet to replace Elway. Both these teams have won ZERO combined Superbowls.

    We have grown up in an era where we have very recently seen the Bears, Bengals, and Chargers become rebuilding successes. People think it isn't an impossible task to rebuild (not saying it isn't damn hard though), so people trust TT to be able to rebuild the Packers. Essentially, they are hoping that when TT is done rebuilding, we will have a team that will be able to compete for at least 4-5 years at least, instead of competing 2 or so years with Favre and then having to possibly start from scratch if A-Rod is a bust.

    I can sympathize with where people like Lare, Pyle, and even 66 are coming from. Like scharles said, I grew up watching Favre, he's the only QB I have seen start for the Green n Gold. I've shared his joy, his sorrow, and his tears as a fan. After the Bears game last season, when he was shedding tears, I was shedding tears right alongside with him yearning for the chance to see Brett go out on top, play and win one final Lombardi. He is, and will probably remain, my all time favourite player.

    A part of me is pissed that TT didn't go for one last run with Brett at the helm. I find comfort in being optimistic that TT will build a team that can compete for a longer time than a team which could have done the same with Brett.

    Anti-TT people aren't as optimistic. Thus, you could argue that they are foolish. However, the Anti-TT crowd could just as easily argue that the pro-TT crowd are being optimistic to the point of foolishness, when history is against the Packers having success within a 5-7 year period (and likely longer) of Brett retiring...

    It is what it is, we all have our reasons for thinking the way we do. In the end though, I don't think the anti-TT will mind if TT does end up building a solid SB winning team.
     
  5. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +0

    You are correct. I don't think Brett is bigger than the Packers, but I do think he gives us the best chance to win. I see it as every year is another chance to compete. Building for the future can go on for decades.

    I don't understand the logic of having a capable QB behind center and still insisting on building for the future. So what happens when Brett leaves? We have a decent team surrounding a young, unproven QB? What if that doesn't pan out. So all of this building for the future stuff was for not?
     
  6. wils0646

    wils0646 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    187
    Ratings:
    +1
    Teams do not need an all-world QB to win Superbowls. Defense has shown to be the primary reason for teams to reach and win the Superbowl (other than Manning).

    Obviously...right now...Brett gives us the best chance to win. I just didn't see us winning the SB two years ago. I didn't see us winning last year. I don't see us winning it this year. Even if Ted had went the route of the Redskins GM Snyder, we would not have had a chance. I think Ted realized we did not have a good enough team as a whole to win out. Thus, he is building up at each position to make a run at it in the future...with or without Brett.

    I know we want Favre to go out with a SB win, but going out on top is just not feasible...even with a spending spree.
     
  7. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +0
    I strongly disagree on many points. The Saints went from what 3-13 last year to the NFC Championship game. You have a chance every year to compete. The Saints did it with rookies, fa's, after losing the most important part of thier O-Line and an average Def.

    History has shown that thier is no blueprint to building a team. The Ravens won it with Defense, The Rams won it with Offense, The Bucs won it with Defense, The Colts won it with offense. There's no lighted path to walk down.

    You will never know how far away your best would get you if you don't try it to begin with
     
  8. wils0646

    wils0646 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    187
    Ratings:
    +1
    But he's not our best anymore! Don't you guys realize that? He's still good, but not all-pro or top 5. The man has regressed the past two years and he's not even close to what he was in 1996.

    Of all of those teams you listed...defenses were above average at least or they had absolutely amazing offenses (Rams, Colts). Do you think we could have had their type of offense the last few years?
     
  9. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,855
    Ratings:
    +22
    Whom in Green and Gold gives us a better chance? Elway wasn't tearing it up at the end, but could still give them a huge play or two in every game. I don't live and die with Favre as some do, but there is only about 2 other Qb's in this league that I would rather suit up. Brady and Manning.

    Is he at the 1996 level, nope, but you say he has regressed in the past two years. I actually seen Brett grow last year, patience being foremost. We need a running game, still being a question, and a decent Defense to carry us at times. Our D is deep and about a Veteran safety away from being "Above Average". Are we a dominant team, nope, but neither were the Steelers 2 years ago. You get hot at the right time, and with Brett we can get hot, IMO.

    That I think is the reason for the impatience, we with a couple of pieces could be this years NO Saints. Parity Baby!
     
  10. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Messages:
    17,827
    Ratings:
    +3,477
    I tend to agree with Wils...The people have not said Brett is bigger then the team, but I can say about 80% of anti Ted people come across that way...

    When statements such as Ted needs to get Brett weapons now, or Brett doesnt have 3 or 4 years to wait... **this is not something I found here, but its phrases that have been said time and time again***

    I dont have an issue with those types of statments, but to me and Wils it seems, the ones that make those statements, dont seem to care about the future of the team at all..Which could be translated into Brett is more important..

    Or am I totaly off base here?
     
  11. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,855
    Ratings:
    +22
    Well from my view, which is "to early to write this season off", is that it isn't so much a pro Favre statement is that rebuilding in today's NFL shouldn't be a five year process. TT in my opinion is building a nice base of talent here, with a solid draft last year and a average draft the year before. (Rogers is a unknown that could change that grade.) But look at what Pickett and Woodson did for the D last year. They brought talent to the table for sure, but they also brought leadership and consistancy to the Defense.

    My big concern with regard to the RB situation isn't that we don't have talent there, it is that we don't have EXPERIENCE there. Bringing in a Dillion for example, isn't that he is going to be the feature back, it is that he would bring experience and leadership. '

    Our line last year was partly a success due to Tausher and Cliffy along with Wells to provide some consistancy for the rooks to lean on. IMO we got lucky with injuries last year or we really would have been in trouble.

    My Opinion is that Ted is overall doing a good job, he just seems to lean on the rooks to hard, it was aparent in WR as well last year. Potential or no, when you line up Driver and a bunch of potential, we are in a less than IDEAL state:)

    Just like anything else, as a fan you want to win, and when you don't have all the information you get worried. In August we will be able to judge Ted's plan for the world to see. 4 or 5 months and we will see.
     
  12. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,855
    Ratings:
    +22
    Additionally with the way contracts are structured these days, there are ways to make the cap hits less impactful than in the past. Plus, we have the flexiblity with cap room to sign players to short terms deals that would have minimal affects on the future cap numbers.

    Chemistry is a question as well, but don't think your players here don't see the money that is being paid elsewhere and not start complaining about their deal. So the point of outpaying the current Packers is somewhat mute.

    The thing we DON"T know is how a player fits into the coaching staff plans and where they see the holes in the gameplan. Unless we get access to Packer HQ, all we have is speculation and PERSONAL opinion.
     
  13. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Messages:
    17,827
    Ratings:
    +3,477
    I think that is an area I have an issue with..

    Sometimes people state things as FACTS why Ted isnt going after someone, or didnt attempt to sign someone..

    I have asked many times, does Ted go to the staff and ask what players they want, or does the staff got to Ted and say we want this guy..

    No one can ever give me an answer to it..

    Last year for example..How many were up in arms that Ted was sitting on his hands not trying to get Lavar Arrington here...

    People were so sure he wasnt trying..But the reality was a visit was set up, it just wasnt announced..

    Then all of a sudden someone saw Lavar with a Packer official around town then wham it all came out..
     
  14. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,855
    Ratings:
    +22
    I agree, but I think that is part of the complaint that some have with Ted, he is very very cloak and daggerish. Where Wolf was a like more open with the behind the scene things. And Sherman was WIDE open with the fans, so it is a change to our fan base that Ted runs a stealth operation.

    I personally don't think it is a bad thing, but as a fan you feel a little disconnected. And for me, it is hard at times not to have the information and to trust him to do his job.

    Compounding the problem, young depth being forced into the line up when we have become accustomed to the mid 90's with experienced depth of lets say a Don Beebe, not a Ruvall Martin. No cut intended to Martin at all, but right now reminds me of 92 and 93 with Wolf and the Kittrick Taylors of the team.
     
  15. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,922
    Ratings:
    +38
    The one thing we do know for sure is that Brett is not going to be here much longer.
    Whether it's TT or whoever at GM they really have three ways to go:

    1) Build the 53 man roster up and strenghen the team so it can be successful without a QB that can carry them like FAVRE, or

    2) Go after guys now that give him the weapons to win and worry about the overall STATE OF THE TEAM later.

    3) Go with a 'tweener" path where you build the team for the eventual departure but work to bring guys in that will also help you win now.

    The PLAN I see TT employing at this time involves keeping a relatively high percentage of "core" players on the roster for a considerable number of years. This is evidenced by the extensions of Wells, DD, Harris, and holding onto key FA's like Kampman, Jenkins, etc, AND, utilizing draft picks that sign multi-year contracts.

    We are pretty solid "core" player wise.

    I believe he is "hoovering" over FA looking for a player(s) that can make this team better but will not jeopordize the contingency plan for the post BF era.

    That plan MUST include an answer to the question "what do we do if Rodgers doesn't work out." Why? Because the guys unproven.

    It would be STUPID to spend three years building and molding a team only to find out you don't have a QB that can play AND you don't have the money to get one because your overpaying players you obtained in FA two years ago.

    That, in my estimation, is why there is caution in the decision making of who to bring on board now.

    There's a lot more to the plan but you look at the roster and we are more younger, more talented, deeper, and, more financially sound than we were just a couple of years ago.

    Those putting TT under the bus NOW are not considering things he MUST consider later on. There is a big picture here. I am not interested seeing things managed with a train wreck waiting to happen.

    The '80's were enough for me.
     
  16. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,486
    Ratings:
    +0
    The Saints also have been drafting VERY early for years, and accumulating talented players that were terribly mismanaged. New leadership and the QB they had been lacking for years allowed the offensive talent to finally perform up to a level comparable to a defense that has been pretty darn good in recent years.

    Big difference between the Saints and the Packers.
     
  17. wils0646

    wils0646 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    187
    Ratings:
    +1
    There is an obvious amount of risk involved being the GM of a team like the Packers.

    No, Aaron Rodgers may not be the answer, but he still could be. TT realizes this risk. A franchise QB is incredibly hard to find and TT's job depends on it. He knows it.
     
  18. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    2,856
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree with wils in general, although I'm sure there are exceptions. Favre is my all-time favorite Packer player, but the GM has to look out for the whole team. For the most part, Thompson's moves have made sense to me, while there are other things he's done that I haven't been happy with or that it's too early to judge. I think the Packers have a chance to make the playoffs this year, and who knows, they could go on a run in the playoffs, though it is unlikely. They will have a better chance in 2008 and 2009 if things go well.
     
  19. Timmons

    Timmons Cheesehead

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    623
    Ratings:
    +1
    Brett does not make or break this team. The Packers will be worse with another QB if that other QB is worse at making decisions.

    For as great at Brett is, he won one SB and wasn't the MVP.

    QB's do not win SB's, but they sure can lose them. The team with the better defense for that game is the one that wins the SB. Your vaunted Rams volatile offense scored 23 points. You call that a juggernaught? I don't.

    Did Peyton win the SB? No, Grossman lost it.

    the best thing a QB can bring to a team is consistency that matches the game plan. Our WCO requires accurate short passes , quick feet and good decision making. Brett is NONE of those. Is Tom Brady a better QB than Brett? I don't think so, but his methods fit their system better, hence his results.

    As for building the team around Brett, well forget it. It shouldn't be done, it's NOT being done and I am glad that TT is the GM. What he is doing is right and I get to enjoy the TT bashers whine about nothing.

    AS for the Elway and Marino examples, consider the teams they had as well. What year did Marino win the SB? Oh sorry. Elway? Sure he's great. He helped his team, but more importantly, he didn't hurt his team. He was consistent and fit their team well.

    TT's current methods are above satisfactory. He's gotten rid of the wasted players, he's rewarded those who produce. His drafting is a SERIOUS improvement and I think he's good in FA too. He took a risk on Woodson and what a blessing that has become.

    Hate TT all you want, he's building a better team with our without Favre.
     
  20. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    Timmons said:"Hate TT all you want, he's building a better team with or without Favre."
    I think this is one of the BEST statements made throughout this whole off season.
    TT has to be prepared for life without Favre. The Packers will still be playing LONG after Favre retires.
    I think Favre still has enough left to lead this team, and with a few decent additions in the right places, i don't see why they can't compete at a high level.
    No one (including me) KNOWS for certain just how good, OR bad the Packers will be this coming season. I still remain VERY hopeful for a great season.
     
  21. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    The problem with your realization is that it is a generalization and is inaccurate as generalizations normally are.
    guise of improving it through the draft. There are other ways of rebuilding
    The problem with TT the way he has dismantled the team under the a team while it remains competitive rather than whole sale dismantling. Favre is this teams only chance of developing a competitive team and why he has remained while TT has stripped the team of talent around him is a testament to how much Favre loves to play the game.

    If Favre is not bigger than the Packers, than neither is TT, and TT needs to be held accountable for the Packers miserable performance under his reign.
     
  22. hoos

    hoos Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    317
    Ratings:
    +0
    I do not love or hate TT and I agree that Brett is not bigger than the team. However, I feel that when you have a quaterback of Brett's caliber (even in the twilight of his career) it is only wise to utilize this asset to the fullest. There are many teams that have failed miserably trying to find a franchise quaterback, and I would describe that situation as a crapshoot at best.

    So my biggest beef with TT is I feel that he is not taking the correct approach to managing this team given the resources that he has. His plan may payoff in the longrun, but I think it is equally likely that we go through another rebuilding effort once Brett hangs em up.

    I will always support the Packers no matter who is under center, but I simply think that our best chance to win a Super Bowl in the next 5 years would be while Brett is still here.
     
  23. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    356
    Ratings:
    +0
    There is no prefix blueprint to win the Superbowl, but you gotta use one to get there.
     
  24. Lare

    Lare Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with the premise of this thread.

    While I can only speak for myself, I don't see this as a "Pro-Favre" issue or a "Anti-TT" issue. I don't hate TT or Favre, and I don't love TT or Favre. And although many may disagree, I don't feel I bash either one of them or favor either one of them. I'm just a fan of the Packers and have been since before either TT or Favre were even born. To me, the only feelings I have towards them or anyone on the Packers organization is their productivity and performance.

    I'll admit that IMO Favre is the best QB the Packers have ever had, but I don't feel he is the greatest player they ever had or even the one most responsible for their success during his tenure here. He's been a great player here and he's been very well compensated for his contributions, but any decisions for the team should be based on what's best for the Packers, not what's best for Brett Favre.

    As to TT, I just feel he should be held accountable for his performance. And unlike most apparently, I'm still not convinced we are any better as a team now that when he got here. In fact, the record would seem to indicate we're not. I see lot's of posters saying we're more talented, he's had great drafts, he's signed key FAs, we have more depth, etc. But I guess I would ask these people to "Prove it!" Forget the supposed potential, forget the supposed talent & depth, just show me how we are better in any area and any closer to being a winning team and a Super Bowl contender than we were when he got here. You want to talk about drafting ability, then tell me why half of the players he drafted the year before last are gone already. You want to talk about talent evaluation, then show me the on-field contributions of the 126 FA players he's signed in the last two years. You want to talk about records, then tell me why the accumulative records of Seattle and Green Bay during the time he's been making player decisions is less than .500.

    All I know is that you measure success in the NFL by the win/loss record. Not by previous contributions, not by sentimentality, not by salary cap space, not by roster turnover, not by number of drafted players and not by potential. It's really simple, you win more than you lose. And if TT can get that to happen consistently here, I'll be his biggest fan.
     
  25. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Messages:
    17,827
    Ratings:
    +3,477
    Lare excellent post!!!

    You said that Ted should be held accountable..I agree, but that is up to the Packer board and or Jones..

    As far as prove that they are better...

    Just look at the D line and the CB situation, I think you could say that area is better, along with the LB core
     

Share This Page