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Moss could make fans forgive, forget

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Zero2Cool, Feb 7, 2007.

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  1. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Excellent work dilluding facts to persuade your point. I see you have a strong oppurtunity to work with ESPN in the future.
    Even though I highly doubt Moss will be a Packer, it's slow at work so I'll throw some text at ya ;)


    Jennings caught 3 more passes, had 79 yards more and each had 3 TD's.
    Moss wasn't happy, Jennings was injured after half the season. The Raiders were one of the worst teams in the NFL in 2006. Poor stats are expected.
    Moss had Brooks and Walter throwing him the ball WHEN they were not being sacked or rushed around like a female virgin in a male prison.
    Jennings had Brett Favre throwing him the ball, enough said.


    Moving on...

    Randy Moss made the comment about taking plays off back in 2001, nearly six years ago. Even with that said, it still causes me to worry. You have to try every play because you don't know if that's the play that will be the TD.







    Winning changes a lot of attitudes. When the Vikings were winning, Moss was the best, bar none. With the Packers, we'd be winning and with Moss catching from Favre, he'd be on better behavior. No question about it.

    If Moss becomes a Packer, I'd like to see it be under a 5-6 million a year contract with incentives(ie, get 1,500 = 750,000, make probowl = 500,000, 18 TD's = 1,000,000 etc) and a clause that allows the Packers to dump him without hurting the franchise in the future if he becomes a train wreck.


    Moss as a teammate? He's been acknowledged many times about being a great teammate and very helpful. He was made team captain on the Raiders for a reason. I know this because I was shocked as **** when I heard the comments. My first thought was "how the **** can someone who admits to taking plays off be a great teammate?"
     
  2. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    Re: Moss the worst thing possible for the Packers

    Well who do you give away for Moss?? Draft choices?? Raiders need DL and OL help.

    Cost

    7 million in salary
    Over 9K / yard receiving
    Trading away a player or Draft pick

    Production

    Declining results trend-used to have 1000 yard seasons
    775 yards a year over last 3 years
    553 yards last year
    2007 ??

    Attitude

    Doing drugs
    Squirting referees with a water bottle
    Arguing with team sponsors on a bus
    Arrest record
    Walking off the field before the conclusion of a game
    Striking law enforcement officer with vehicle
    "I take plays off"
    "I play when I want to play"

    Education
    Notre Dame revoked scholarship for racially motivated fight
    While at Florida State tested positive for marijuana while on a work release program revoking his probation causing FL State to drop him
    Eventually Marshall in West Virginia let him play

    Does such a player fit in with the highly motivated young players the Packers have?
    Does this player fit with the relatively new coaching staff?
    Does his contract fit into the Packer salary cap plans for 2007, 2008 and beyond?

    Is it not an honor to be a Packer player?
    How would the player handle the honor?
     
  3. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Re: Moss the worst thing possible for the Packers

    That's CLEVER! Use the final year with Minn which he was injured early in the season an kept toughing it out before finally giving in to the staff to sit out an get better. Then add the two years with the Raiders where he was on a team without a good QB.
    CLEVER!



    If you are asking me... read the damn posts and you won't have to ask.

    "If Moss becomes a Packer, I'd like to see it be under a 5-6 million a year contract with incentives(ie, get 1,500 = 750,000, make probowl = 500,000, 18 TD's = 1,000,000 etc) and a clause that allows the Packers to dump him without hurting the franchise in the future if he becomes a train wreck."


    And I've said I wouldn't make the trade unless it was FAIR to the Packers. Meaning 3rd + Ferguson. I wouldn't give up a 2nd rd even up for Moss.
     
  4. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    Moss has gone on too long getting away w/what he has and now at 30 years old..he's not going to change. He too knows that Favre's on his way out and he doesn't have an ear for people he knows that won't be around.

    You say it's only 2 years, but he'll eat up significant cap space for those
    2 years, and the damage to the locker room and division he'll cause in those 2 years will set the team back. A LOT can be damaged in too years..

    The other thing I mentioned is that Moss doesn't like the west coast offense. The WC offense emphasizes run after the catch and short passes. Moss hates getting tangled in w/the linebackers in the middle and doesn't like to have to WORK for his yards. He just wants to sprint downfield in 1 on 1 coverage and have a strong arm QB who can do that for him. High Risk High Reward.

    I think that would actually bring the worst out of Favre. Each QB that's worked w/Moss is too tempted to go for the homerun ball, and then ruin's the system's methodical way to gain yards. And then if they do NOT throw to Moss...he'll stop running his routes and make one armed pass catch attempts.

    The only offense Moss likes is Mike Martz's turf offense because it allows
    long down field sprints and curls and avoids the inside part of the field entirely. He only has to face cbs and an occasional safety in that offense.

    As the X or Y receiver in the west coast offense..he has to face punishment
    from linebackers every down. He doesn't like that. Jerry Rice and Terrel Owens flourished in that..but that's not Moss' game.

    Sending him to another team that's a .500 team, and running an offense
    that doesn't suit his game is not going to bring the best out of him in
    these last 2 years of his contract, or the last 2 years of Favre's playing days.
     
  5. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    If a trade happen with the Packers and Raiders, Green Bay could restructure Randy Moss' deal to a 2 or 3 year contract with probably some bonuses up front and a lot of incentives. That is a realistic possibility.

    Keep in mind if this does happen you have to give Moss a chance. How many people wrote off Charles Woodson as an overrated, aging, injury prone corner that wouldn’t play 8 games this year? A lot of people did that. So if the Packers end up with Moss he deserves a chance and maybe he ends up being the bold acquisition that puts us in the playoffs.

    Overall if we do get him nobody can’t say it won’t be interesting and at least fun to watch Favre throw to Moss on a regular basis.
     
  6. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    WELL SAID
     
  7. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    NICE POST!!! :thumbsup:
    I honestly haven't read or heard anyone with this take on Moss. Forget all the behavior/locker room/decline in production debates, he doesn't appear to fit the current offense at all.

    That was nicely put, too about him 'tempting' quarterbacks to look deep too often. I think that this temptation could just kill Favre if was there.
     
  8. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    Isn't that like saying.."wow..it's great to get that one
    blast from my corvette every once in awhile..but it's in the shop
    the rest of the week"

    It would be fun to watch an occasional 75 yard touch down from time to time, but the damage he does to the team's pysche, and his 50% effort all the time, while yelling at Mike McCarthy and Favre make it worth it?

    Also as mentioned above..Moss hates this offense. He'll sulk if he doesn't get 8-10 passes a game downfield. IF the passes are thrown in the middle of the field where linebackers roam..he will not go for them.

    Woodson was never faulted for not trying. He was faulted for being injury prone and closing speed, and being burned by bigger recievers(Terrell Owens). He had a good year, but he is still past his prime. Again..he tries so you can't fault him for that.

    Woodson is nothing like Moss. Woodson actually tries. Moss doesn't. Chris Carter couldn't get Moss to care. Daunte Culpepper couldn't get Moss to care. Al Davis couldn't get Moss to care. Brett Favre and Mike McCarthy are NOT going to get Moss to care.

    Only MOSS can get MOSS to care and he does not.
     
  9. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    Thanks.

    I mean McCarthy has tried to reign Favre into the scheme of the offense and his interceptions are down..(although his TD/INT ratio is still high).

    Having Moss in there will create more high risk/reward things for Favre and pull him out of the offensive scheme. Don't think that will not cause divide in the lockeroom, coaches and players.

    You think Donald Driver, who takes all the punishment in the middle
    as the x receiver, will enjoy doing all the dirty work, and have Favre chuck it down to Moss in double coverage all the time and Donald not get the ball?

    All KINDS of team problems...

    Moss will produce more 3 and outs and more pressure on Woodson and the defense than he will produce 75 yard bombs that will excite the fans.
     
  10. Timmons

    Timmons Cheesehead

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    I like the way Cal2Greenbay sticks to his guns. The post about Moss and the west coast offense is good, oh and refpacker, pardon us if we thought you were uneducated and thanks for clarifying that apparently such is not the case. You're the one who wrote 'prolly' twice.

    Either way, it will be interesting to see how this develops.

    If it were my decision, I'd forget about Moss and keep my draft picks. I think the team has more pressing needs than a media-frenzed receiver.
     
  11. Buckeyepackfan

    Buckeyepackfan Cheesehead

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    After reading 5 pages of pro's and cons on Randy Moss...

    I say TT will either sign him or not sign him!!!!!

    It worked with Brett let's see if it works for Moss.
     
  12. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    So you don't need a deep threat in the West Coast Offense..???

    I don't buy that argument at all...

    It doesn't give the play caller any credit for any having intelligence at all...

    There are plenty of routes that can be run in the WC offense that doesn't get a vulnerable WR killed....(This is why Terry Glenn was getting his clock cleaned every week...because some idiot who shall remain nameless was having him run patterns in front of the LB's...)

    You've never heard of a side-line pattern, or WR screen, etc..etc..???

    Moss's vertical game would open up the other stuff for GB's other receivers like Driver (who strength is really not being a deep ball threat)...Jennings, etc..

    I think Cal2GB doesn't want Moss in GB because he feels that Aaron won't be able to handle him in a few years...imo....
     
  13. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    I don't buy that either. How many TD's did Jerry Rice rack up, anyone?


    Terry was slaughtered man lol ... I kind of felt bad for him at times, but then I thought he's a PRO an makes a lot of dough.


    Imagine having someone to stretch the field which would open up the inside tremendously for Driver and Jennings. Heck, if we have to get stuck with Ferguson even he'd make some plays!


    Good observation, I agree.
     
  14. vikesrule

    vikesrule Cheesehead

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    I would give a months pay to listen to how you all talked about Moss a few years ago.

    I would bet another months pay, that with the exception of a very few here, you were all over Moss and his bad attitude.

    How many times do you think that I would have heard

    "My God, I am sure glad that Moss a$$hole isn't a Packer"

    Now I am sure that I will hear "That is because he was on the Vikings, and no leadership"

    Give me a break.
     
  15. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    To you and Zero cool,

    Jerry Rice had touchdowns not from his deep passes but because he was catching them around the middle of the field and running them to the house. He took the abuse of getting hit by linebackers etc.

    Terrell Owens would actually HIT BACK at the linebackers and run them over.

    Believe it or not, Randy is not as physical as EITHER of those guys and he doesn't handle running across the middle very well.
    Randy scores from long bombs. Most of Jerry's and TO's were not from the long bombs. They scored from yards after the quick catch.

    And what does my explanation have to do w/the play caller? In the WC offense the play calls for a progression of reads. No matter what McCarthy schemes up, it's up to Favre to decide what he sees on the field is the best option to throw to in those reads.

    If he has Moss going deep every play, he'll be more tempted to throw it at him, than he would to throw to possession receiver Driver. YEs..Moss will open things up for Driver, but only if the QB takes advantage of that. HE may keep throwing to Moss because Favre too likes to gamble. Why go 10 hard dump pass to Driver, when you can go 75 to Moss. That's the concern.

    One is a higher percentage..the other is lower and high risk..but oh so tempting. Moss will not run hard on side line patterns, bubble screens, out routes, and even the post. Watch his tape over the years and you'll see that.

    He'll only run hard for his QB initially and if the QB connects w/Moss on a go route. If not..he'll coast.

    And it's sad and short sighted that you think I can't comment on something about the packers w/out trying to take a shot at me about Aaron Rodgers.

    Please try and take away your own bias about me when we're discussing something totally different.

    I'm talking about Moss fitting w/the Packers. Not Moss fitting w/Rodgers.
    At least give me that credit.
     
  16. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    If you guys want a vertical threat to open up things..get:

    1)Charles Rogers.

    Here's why:

    1)He's younger
    2)He won't hurt as bad on the salary cap
    3)He has great speed and has to be respected.
    4)He also loafs around, but will have better chance of listening to Favre
    than Moss would.
    5)He's got more to prove since he's out of the league and has to be on his best behavior. Moss has nothing to prove as he says and just wants to collect on his contract, unless he's playing in Mike Martz's offense.

    And again guys. As much as you guys don't agree w/my west coast assessment. Moss was on record saying he wanted to go to wherever Mike Martz was running an offense. A "REAL" offense as he said.

    Moss played in Norv Turner's offense. The same offense that made Michael Irvin a hall of famer, who had nowhere near the speed Moss has..
    Turner turned the San Francisco offense around w/Alex Smith and Antonio Bryant(who's not nearly as talented as Moss).

    Yet Norv couldn't get his offense to work w/Moss because Moss wouldn't run hard and then wouldn't get the attention from the defense he could command TO open up things for other receivers.

    He didn't play well in Norv's offense. He's NOT a fan of the west coast offense...and he won't play hard in either.

    Since GB plays a wc offense..it's not a good sign for success.

    Bottom line guys. This offense doesn't suit his game...
     
  17. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    You're trying to say that a man who caught on average over 70 balls a season while gaining on average over 1,100 yards will not work in the west coast offense.


    You have credit, just none with me while you make posts of that nature. Then you say if we want a deep threat, go for Charles Rodgers? C'mon man.


    Where's the source that Randy Moss said he didn't like the WCO? I don't recall ever hearing that nor reading it.





    btw, the Raiders are implementing the WCO. Packers Brett Favre or Raiders rookie QB ... decisions I tell ya.
     
  18. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Maybe that's what your saying but that's not what I'm saying at all. I think Moss can have an impact on this team in a good way. I think he can do more good than bad.

    Will he yell at Favre and McCarthy? Your argument is based on speculation of his past. Your speculating as much as anyone else on here with him. As far as I saw your explaining Terrell Owens. Moss will get in anyone's face but he does have a lot of respect for Brett Favre. He has stated as much. Will that keep him cool? Maybe and maybe not but guess what since Randy Moss has been in the league he has played in 2 NFC Title Games. Brett Favre and the Packers have played in 0. I’ve been saying for a bit that Green Bay needs to make a bold move and MAYBE this is it.

    There are at least a dozen different west coast offenses in the NFL. There is no true west coast offense. Everyone runs a different version of the west coast offense. The closes thing to Bill Walsh's baby is Mike Holmgrem's style. McCarthy's terminology is very different from everyone else’s. Moss was never about getting 10 catches a game. His statistics will show that. He's about the big play. If he's making the big play and the team is winning he'll be fine. I do agree with you that if the team is not winning he'll have a problem and this is why I stated in my above post that he needs to get his contract restructured to a 2 year deal based on incentives. If you can do this the safe way, you can take a chance. If you can’t then you need to hold up.

    Again your not presenting facts. Your passing your speculating opinion as a fact. Cris Carter to this date still speaks very highly of Randy Moss. He has nothing but good things to say about him. Daunte Culpepper does as well. Culpepper and Moss talked on the phone last year about a possible "Cinderella Story" type of reunion in Oakland. Any problems they’ve had was put behind them. Moss called out Mike Tice in an interview on ESPN. He said what 99% of Minnesota fans and probably the players were thinking. Anyone could tell Tice was not the right guy for that job. Would he do it in Green Bay? I’m not sure. Saying yes would be speculation and I’m not going to speculate on something and present it as a fact. I will say he has mellowed a lot more in Oakland.

    I’m not 100% for bringing in Randy Moss. I need to know what type of compensation the Raiders would receive for him. If it’s a 3rd round pick then I say absolutely give him a chance. A 2nd rounder I would probably hold off. A 1st rounder I would say absolutely No Way!! Pending the compensation I don’t think it hurts the Packers to look into bringing in Randy Moss.
     
  19. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Good post.
    Thats pretty much where I'm at. If we can get him without selling the farm, go for it. I wouldnt lose a pick any higher than 3rd though. I think with Ted drafting we need those two rd's tremendously. That's not a knock on him, its a compliment.

    For a 3rd rd'er even we have to throw someone like Ferguson in there to get him, I think its worth it.
     
  20. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    Good posts guys. I respect your opinions.

    The reference to his hating the WCO was in reference to Lane Kiffin and his new OC Greg Knapp. YOu guys can go to KNBR.com and listen to the audio about Moss and the Raiders.
    It should be in the archives.

    If They can get moss for a 2nd, 3rd round pick and restructure his deal, then it could be worth it.

    The reason I said Rogers is because he can be cut and count less against the cap and is more moldable than Moss.
     
  21. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Nice wild goose chase there. Couldn't find the audio. Oh well.

    I wouldn't let go of a 2nd for Moss, no way. 3rd plus an 'depth' player, sure thats at the most. Yeah I want him in a Packer uniform, but I don't want to lose half the ship. He's a helluva talent, but ... could be a complete turd here. There is that chance.


    Rogers would count less, yes. But he's no where near the talent that Moss is and if you structure Moss' contract intelligently you can dump him without hurting you much.

    If the Packers were in a tigh cap position, I'd agree with going for someone less risk, less reward, but since we have so much cap space and the risk is high, the reward is even higher.
     
  22. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    i agree with you 100% Zero. I think our cap space dictates that we CAN and SHOULD go after a player like Moss.
     
  23. 4packgirl

    4packgirl Cheesehead

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    aMEN, bozzy. i didn't take the time to read all 5 pages of this thread but, if it'll make some of you happy, can't we just say we need a kick-*** WR - period?? it doesn't matter who the QB is - we NEED ONE NOW!!!
     
  24. Cal2GreenBay

    Cal2GreenBay Cheesehead

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    http://railbirdcentral.blogspot.com/search/label/Randy Moss
    (towards the bottom of thepage)

    "By now most people have heard that Moss has voiced his opinion that he wants out of Oakland and isn't even interested in talking to newly hired head coach Lane Kiffin. "Kiffin supposedly attempted to contact the 29-year-old Moss over the weekend, ready to talk with his most daunting challenge for the upcoming season. Moss wanted nothing to do with the newly hired coach, and he used a wide assortment of profanities to make it clear,' writes Carroll."

    This is the most PG version of what happened. It was all over talk radio in the bay area after Lane Kiffins hiring. He basically cussed Kiffin out. KNBR should have radio bits from Gary Radnich about it. IF not, I'll try and dig it up
     
  25. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not making the connection. Cussing out Kiffin, I got that. But I don't see where it says he hates the west coast offense.
     
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