McGinn harshly criticizes Rodgers

[TJV]

People keep going around and around on which specific player to blame. There were LOTS of players to blame. That being the case, wouldn't one think that the coaches would then be to blame? It's the coaches jobs to get the players to do their jobs. I can understand if maybe one or two guys screw up but the Packers suffered from far too many issues to be blamed on one guy. McCarthy coaching "not to lose", HaHa forgetting he was playing football on the conversion, Bostick being unable to field the ball, Nelson dropping passes, Rodgers having a terrible day, Burnett going down....it goes on and on....

IMO the coaches share the blame but players are also responsible for what they do on the field. You mention HaHa, Bostic, and Nelson; certainly none of them was coached to fall asleep, not do his assignment, and drop the ball.

 

[Bignutz]

I've been waiting for the right time to post this. I guess this is it.

I was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas. All we have here in this city professionally is an NBA team called the Spurs. Great team. Even greater players and coaches. Most of them previous champions from earlier years.

2013. The Spurs finally climb the mountain of the Western Conference and get back to the NBA Finals after a 6 year absence. As the series progresses, the Spurs set a Finals record for most 3 point shots made and have the defending champions in a elimination game. On the road, up 3 games to 2, with less than a minute to go for the franchise's 5th NBA Championship, this happened.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

The Spurs would lose in overtime and the next night, lose Game 7. I was devastated. The Spurs don't lose games like that. Once they have a lead in the waning moments of a game, the experience and teamwork shines through and they pull it out, always.

As the devastation subsided, I told friends and family, "Well, they have better rebound and put that loss behind them because if they don't, that loss will haunt this franchise until they win another title and if they don't, it will haunt them forever.

2014. The first day of training camp, Coach Pop sits the entire team down in the film room and makes them watch Game 6 of the previous years NBA Finals in it's entirety. The point was, it wasn't the last minute of Game 6 that cost them the title, it was the entire game.

The Spurs used the loss as motivation, finished the season with the NBA's best record and home-court advantage throughout the playoffs. In the playoffs, they once again reached the Western Conference mountaintop and set up a rematch with the 2 time defending champions. This time, the Spurs had the home court advantage.

The Spurs left no doubt. They defeated the Miami Heat in 5 games, 4-1, playing some of the greatest basketball I've ever seen and setting an NBA Finals record for margin of victory.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

My point is the same. If the Packers can't put this behind them, it's going to haunt them until they win a title or forever. It's not Rodgers fault, it's not the defense's fault, it's not Bostick's fault. It was the TEAM'S fault. The Pack can learn a thing or 2 from the Spurs, get over it and come back next year better and stronger than ever.

+1 Well said!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm not sure if a stat can be found to support this but I remember a few times in his career Rodgers has thrown an INT after he anticipated a penalty on the defense. It's because it's a free play and he feels free to gamble because the penalty negates any bad result. Rodgers said after the game that Linsley snapped the ball early because Bennett was offsides. IMO Rodgers threw the ball up hoping Adams would be able to make a play on it and if it was intercepted, they'd just accept the penalty. If anyone deserves criticism for that play, it's the official who missed the call.

Since the start of the 2012 season (can´t search the NFL game pass for specific plays for earlier seasons) Rodgers has attempted 21 passes on free plays. He has seven completions on them for 166 yards, four TDs and three passes have been intercepted (which of course were overturned by the penalty).

So if Rodgers airs the ball out and allows Adams to run under it at full speed, you're saying Sherman (not known for his speed) will somehow manage to make up ground?

Sherman had a faster 40 yard dash than Adams at the Combine.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That wasn't the question, I don't believe. The question was whether Rodgers missed an open receiver. My point is that the coverage is decent; the outside window relatively small. As for Sherman's ability, I'd point you to his signature play against Crabtree...that was an adjustment to an outside throw from inside coverage...it's kind of his specialty.

Was it a poor throw? Sure. It happens to the best of them...often. Did Rodgers miss a fish in a barrel? No.

If you guys want to get all worked up about a throw, this is not the one. The high throw to a wide open Cobb on that crosser was uncharacteristic for Rodgers. He makes that throw at least 9 out of 10 times.

Sorry, not buying it. Rodgers is, and should be, held to a much higher standard than Kapernick when it comes to ball placement. Also, the pass didn't need to be a back shoulder throw, it just needed to be in front of Adams.

Please, I'm not trying to say that Rodgers is a bad QB for not making this pass. I'm just saying that it shouldn't have been an interception and it should have been a TD had Rodgers thrown the ball as accurately as he usually does.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Suit yourself. Go to the following link and click on "NFC Championship Can't Miss Play: Sherman Strikes".

http://www.nfl.com/big-play-highlights/2014/POST/20

Sherman had coverage all the way; the receiver never gained a step on him. The best shot was an outside throw, as I previously noted, in an attempt to "throw open" the receiver against inside coverage. Sherman happens to be one of those guys who adjusts the ball as well as most receivers so that would be a tough throw regardless. Rodgers may have been a fraction late, may have misjudged the best opportunity, or perhaps he saw the receiver already committing to the inside.

Regardless, this is not an easy opportunity missed as some wish to portray it because Sherman had close coverage all the way. To repeat, the Cobb high throw is far more worthy of critique.

How can you say Adams didn't have a step when he was ahead of Sherman on the way to endzone? Not having a step would mean that Sherman was parallel to adams, which he wasn't.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

IMO the coaches share the blame but players are also responsible for what they do on the field. You mention HaHa, Bostic, and Nelson; certainly none of them was coached to fall asleep, not do his assignment, and drop the ball.

I know, and usually I'm the one defending the coaches from plaeyr mistakes. My point is that sooooo many players made mistakes that it should make one question the coaches as well (I mean, aside from the conservative, ill-informed calls and the terrible special teams).

 

[TJV]

My point is that sooooo many players made mistakes that it should make one question the coaches as well (I mean, aside from the conservative, ill-informed calls and the terrible special teams).

How did the coaching staff do for the first 55 minutes of the game? Were there a lot of individual player screw ups? If not, do you think the staff changed the way they coached for the last 5 minutes? IMO that makes no sense. Bostic was coached to block on the on-side kick. HaHa was coached to defend receivers, etc. Isn't the logical conclusion to thinking it's all on the coaching staff is to advocate a house-cleaning and firing McCarthy and all the coaches under him?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Sorry, not buying it. Rodgers is, and should be, held to a much higher standard than Kapernick when it comes to ball placement. Also, the pass didn't need to be a back shoulder throw, it just needed to be in front of Adams.

A back shoulder throw would have been the only way to complete that pass. If Rodgers had put it in front of Adams he wouldn´t have been able to catch it in an CFL end zone.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Sorry, not buying it. Rodgers is, and should be, held to a much higher standard than Kapernick when it comes to ball placement. Also, the pass didn't need to be a back shoulder throw, it just needed to be in front of Adams.

Please, I'm not trying to say that Rodgers is a bad QB for not making this pass. I'm just saying that it shouldn't have been an interception and it should have been a TD had Rodgers thrown the ball as accurately as he usually does.

And I'm not saying it's a good pass. I'm saying the probability of completing this pass with this coverage is low regardless of who's throwing the ball. The point was made, if anybody could possibly remember, that Rodgers missed some fish in a barrel; that the receiver had a step and that's wide open in the NFL, if I may paraphrase.

If Sherman had not made a terrific play, we'd not be having this discussion. It would have been just another low probability throw that went incomplete, the kind the best QBs throw a few times per game.

Again, go pick on the high probability throws that missed.

 

[HardRightEdge]

How can you say Adams didn't have a step when he was ahead of Sherman on the way to endzone? Not having a step would mean that Sherman was parallel to adams, which he wasn't.

The original premise is flawed. One step is not necessarily open, particularly when the defender has good position and is tracking the ball. The highlight reels of completions, where the throw is right on time, right in stride, and dropped in over the defender might tell you it's a throw that should be expected. But play-in-play-out, even the best QBs don't accomplish that with any regularity.

Alternatively, look at Kearse's winning catch. He had a step on Williams, the ball was on time, it was in stride and it was dropped in. And Williams still got a hand on the ball and the receivers arm. It was an optimal throw and catch. If they repeated the process 5 more times, they might make that play once if at all.

There's a lot of highlightitis in this discussion.

 

[TJV]

I'm saying the probability of completing this pass with this coverage is low regardless of who's throwing the ball.

Agreed and that's why I'd bet if Rodgers didn't think he had a free play, he would not have made that throw.

 

[sschind]

Holy Shhhhh! I marked this as funny because I hope it was sarcastic. WTF…

it was

 

[HardRightEdge]

Agreed and that's why I'd bet if Rodgers didn't think he had a free play, he would not have made that throw.

I conspicuously avoided mention of the free play assumption or the injury, the reasons being:

1) I don't like excuses.

2) It shouldn't matter in the context of this discussion.

Had it not been thought to be a free play, would Rodgers have attempted the back shoulder away from the inside coverage? Perhaps. But that too is a low probability throw, particularly against a DB known to be particularly effective defending that kind of throw.

The question, at least the one I was responding to, was that Rodgers missed an open receiver. There's no evidence to support that.

 

[TJV]

I don't think it's an excuse. IMO Rodgers taking advantage of free plays is a reflection of his intelligence. IMO completing that pass would have required a nearly perfect throw so with the coverage Sherman had I don't think Rodgers attempts that pass except for the free play. And it turns out Rodgers was correct: It was a neutral zone infraction that wasn't called.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

A back shoulder throw would have been the only way to complete that pass. If Rodgers had put it in front of Adams he wouldn´t have been able to catch it in an CFL end zone.

That's because Rodgers waited too long to throw the ball

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The original premise is flawed. One step is not necessarily open, particularly when the defender has good position and is tracking the ball. The highlight reels of completions, where the throw is right on time, right in stride, and dropped in over the defender might tell you it's a throw that should be expected. But play-in-play-out, even the best QBs don't accomplish that with any regularity.

Alternatively, look at Kearse's winning catch. He had a step on Williams, the ball was on time, it was in stride and it was dropped in. And Williams still got a hand on the ball and the receivers arm. It was an optimal throw and catch. If they repeated the process 5 more times, they might make that play once if at all.

There's a lot of highlightitis in this discussion.

My point is that the Packers rely on, and pay, Rodgers to be a terrific QB. A great QB in the conference championship doesn't miss throws like that (not meant to imply Rodgers isn't a great QB, just that he didn't play like one). Yes, there were other throws that Rodgers missed. However, in the context of how this game ended, this particular throw is pretty important. I'm not trying to say Adams was wide open but he was open enough that I would expect the really good QBs to complete that pass (e.g., Brees, Luck, Flacco if it's the playoffs).

 

[El Guapo]

Let's get down to it kids. We have one of the greatest quarterbacks in modern history, but he doesn't always win the big games. He can and has won them, but is typically better in the regular season. So what is all of this arguing about? Nobody is (I think) arguing to get rid of him, so let's accept him for who he is. He's great but not the greatest. Live with it.

 

[Packerlover]

McGinn doesn't know what he's talking about. One of the first games I ever watched as a Packer fan was the 2007 NFCCG, Favre's last game. Before the game McGinn had this big article on JS Online about the Giants and how they would never be able to beat the Pack at lambeau. He went into quite a long analysis of the team and he was WRONG in every aspect. Maybe he should report on elementary school flag football games instead of the NFL..

 

[El Guapo]

To be fair, everyone in the world aside from a few folks with tinfoil hats were predicting a Packers victory. As I've stated many times, that Giants team made the greatest playoff run that I've ever seen in any sport. They beat a "better" team in Tampa Bay, knocked of the #1 seed Cowboys in Dallas, then went to cold Lambeau and knocked off a red hot Favre, and then beat the undefeated Patriots in the Super Bowl. Nobody gave them a shot. If that's your only critique of McGinn, then I'm not sure what to say.

 

[AKCheese]

Here's a thought. Maybe one shouldn't assume a "free play" unless they see a bright yellow flag thrown?

 

[TJV]

McGinn doesn't know what he's talking about. One of the first games I ever watched as a Packer fan was the 2007 NFCCG, Favre's last game. Before the game McGinn had this big article on JS Online about the Giants and how they would never be able to beat the Pack at lambeau. He went into quite a long analysis of the team and he was WRONG in every aspect. Maybe he should report on elementary school flag football games instead of the NFL..

So McGinn doesn't know what he's talking about because of an article he wrote in 2007? How about detailing all the mistakes you think he made in the article in question?

 

[El Guapo]

Here's a thought. Maybe one shouldn't assume a "free play" unless they see a bright yellow flag thrown?

One should don a football helmet and see what you can see. Helmets are like wearing horse blinders. You get to see the flag shoot up on the sideline because you either have the full stadium view or are watching tv. I'd bet that most if not all QBs are purely going off of the opponent's movement versus seeing a flag, unless they are calling for the ball to be snapped while looking left or right. Usually they've stopped scanning the field moments before the ball gets snapped.

 

[TJV]

I'd bet that most if not all QBs are purely going off of the opponent's movement versus seeing a flag, unless they are calling for the ball to be snapped while looking left or right. Usually they've stopped scanning the field moments before the ball gets snapped.

Not only that, Linsley snapped the ball early because a defender was in the neutral zone.

 

[Mondio]

It is something they've done all year. A perfect world allows Rodgers to see every flag and know every instance. Yes it would have been nice had he made sure one was on the field before throwing, but are you really going to get upset with the process? They practice it all the time and execute in gametime all year long. A guy jumps, linsley snaps it and Rodgers goes down field.

That exact scenario happened, guy jumped in to neutral zone, linsley snapped it and Rodgers went down field. It's an easy call for the official to make. I prefer they run what they practice to take advantage of that then squander opportunities because they're too busy looking for a flag from every official on the field.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Not only that, Linsley snapped the ball early because a defender was in the neutral zone.

The players can't count on getting the flag, nor can they be certain there wasn't some tiny flinch by Bulaga they did not see.

This would not be the first time Rodgers thought he had a free play when he didn't. I can recall a couple of occasions where Rodgers threw at a receiver he thought was held only to have his protests fall on deaf ears. Further, it is no terrible surprise the refs missed it. Refs fail to flag D-Line guys lined up with their helmets in the neutral zone with regularity, and that's an easier call to make.

So, the free play is a calculated risk that Rodgers is surely aware of. Given the uncertainties of getting the call, priority #1 in the World According to Rodgers applies in the assumed free play as it does any other time...put it where it cannot be intercepted.

Rodgers violated his own rules of engagement...it was a poor pass because Sherman caught it, not because the receiver didn't. It was a low probability opportunity to start with.