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McCarthy is a great coach

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Beebe82, Dec 5, 2015.

  1. Beebe82

    Beebe82 Cheesehead

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    No this isn't a homer opinion or green and gold glasses stance but rather a theory. For years McCarthy has focused 95% of his time on the offensive side of the ball and the packers have had great success.

    In 2015 he gave up that focus to be a "big picture" coach. What really happened in my view is he gave up the offensive duties to focus 60 to 70% of his time on defense. Look at the results this year outside of the Denver game. The defense has been playing well, even great in the game against Minnesota. However look at how far the offense has fallen, this leads me to my theory.

    Mike McCarthy is a great coach, but a terrible hiring manager. His offensive and defensive staffs do not perform when he isn't directly over seeing / supervising them. Look at the few coaches who have gone else where. Joe philbin, flop. Ben McAdoo, mixed results. I've been thinking about this the past few days, thoughts?
     
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  2. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Too small of a sample on coaching tree failures. The failure rate for head coaches is pretty high. As far as home opinions on Ben McAdoo - he was born in Homer City. Okay, that is meaningless, but there you go.

    Of all of the Packer assistant coaches, I think the best is Edgar Bennett. He coached the WRs up until last year, now they all seem to have regressed. Before that he coached the RBs. Ahman Green had his best years under EB, and when he got injured, EB plugged in a UDFA Samkon Gado who had a great year. I know the Offense is struggling and this may be in part on EB being in his first year, but give him some time. I'm sure he will rise to the occasion.

    As far as MM's faults, I don't think it is because of his hiring manager abilities, everyone makes mistakes. It's his devotion to his assistants. The OL has long been a hindrance to our success. James Campen just can't seem to develop players or have them focused.
     
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  3. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    I'd love to see Philbin back as the offensive coordinator. I agree with you that one of MM's weaknesses is generally considered an attribute: loyalty to his assistants. And he's responsible for the performance of the team in all 3 phases--which has been up and down all season. Instead of gushing about the heart of his team and the great win last Thurs, he should have been demanding a team that shows up for an entire game, not just a quarter, or half of it.
     
  4. Beebe82

    Beebe82 Cheesehead

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    The example about Edgar would be another hypothesis I would like to test, I think he is a good coach as well, but it seems without McCarthy there looking over his shoulder the units EB is responsible for have floundered (since he is the offensive coordinator the receivers and offensive line fall under him). I would say he gets a pass this year to grow into the role.

    As far as McCarthy being too loyal, I think everyone on this board has said this at one time or another (slocum), and that goes back to McCarthy's faults as a hiring manager or in other words GM of the coaching staff. The staff doesn't have enough either talent or teaching ability to be left on their own to teach skills to their players and hold them accountable to be professionals
     
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  5. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    I highly doubt this team that has been a contender for years does it with overall bad position coaches.
     
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  6. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

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    I remember reading somewhere that MM rotates the position responsibilities of his staff every year, to make them more well rounded as coaches, and to give them a better shot at head coaching opportunities they might get down the road.
     
  7. Beebe82

    Beebe82 Cheesehead

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    I didn't say they were overall bad. They however appear to be average to below average. McCarthy on the other hand seems to be covering up some of their faults
     
  8. G0P4ckG0

    G0P4ckG0 Cheesehead

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    I doubt the offense would have fallen so far if Jordy was playing. The defense has greatly improved and I think McCarthy should continue to focus more on this aspect of the team in the years to come.
     
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  9. lambeaulambo

    lambeaulambo Cheesehead

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    Slow down....a great football coach focuses on all three aspects, and makes his hired coaches responsible. The Campen thing is glaring, as is Capers, and (was) Slocum. I think MM is an OC, a one trick pony. His blind loyalty is the issue.
     
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  10. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

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    While the offensive line has been inconsistent under his tenure, we were one of the best in the league last year under Campen. As far as Capers goes, his and McCarthy's defense has been the only thing keeping us in most games this year.

    To say that McCarthy is a one trick pony OC
    despite his public switch to give up play calling duties to spend more time with the defense and special teams, and their turnaround play this year, as well as the offenses struggles would be as it appears, just incorrect.
     
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  11. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Did Campen all of a sudden become a good OL coach over the last half of last season and then forget how to coach this season? Why is it he gets blamed for players like Barclay but never seems to get credit for Sitton, Lang, Linsley, and even Tretter? If Bulaga isn't 100% healthy, how many above-average starting NFL OTs talent-wise do you think are on the roster - or how many average ones?

    Does McCarthy get credit for sticking with Capers this year because the Packers D is 6th in per game scoring D going into today's games? Or does he get credit for the influence he exerts which resulted in that improvement? How many times can the D be blamed for losses this season? Does McCarthy get credit for the improvement in STs this year and his lack of loyalty to Slocum?

    IMO McCarthy is a good NFL coach and IMO the opinion of the best HC in the league (by far IMO) carries some weight: Belichick who I think it is fair to say isn't effusive with praise thinks highly of McCarthy.
     
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  12. Beebe82

    Beebe82 Cheesehead

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    I agree McCarthy is one of the best coaches in the league, but without him actively managing a unit on the team, that unit seems to falter. It's a shame there are 3 McCarthys coaching this squad.
     
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  13. Un4GivN

    Un4GivN Cheesehead

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    "Great coach" ehhh... No i wouldn't say that... Proficient sure.

    I think he lacks creativity at times, I'd like to see him lay it on Aaron more than he does, (Especially with the timeouts being taken at the end of the play clock EVERY GAME), I don't think he fires up his team very well and never has.

    This team has never had a great energy to it, fire when they come out to play. Not since Woodson was the person to do so. But in my eyes that is a coaching thing.

    And as was stated, this is a very small sample size, I still don't hold tons of faith in this defense. Have they played well at times sure. But it is much the same as it has been for all of Capers career. He takes advantage of inexperienced or below average quarterbacks and abuses them. (aka nick foles game earlier this season) But seems to have an overall difficult time against talented offenses.
     
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  14. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    I don't think so. He's been at it for 9 years as the offensive line coach. In those 9 years, he has produced the no. 1 offensive pass protection line (by sacks allowed) in 2007, followed by no. 14, 30, 21, 23, 31, 26, 13, and no. 17 so far this year. He has fielded run blocking lines ranked 26th in 2007; followed by 19th, 9th, 23rd, 16th, 25th, 5th, 8th and currently his line ranks 24th in run blocking this season.

    So, overall his lines have ranked have ranked 17th in run blocking; 19+ in pass blocking. If you throw out the no. 1 line he inherited in 2007, his pass blocking lines rank 22nd in the league over 8 years. This year's line is a bit worse than the average line he's fielded in the last 9 years.

    Maybe the talent he's been given over that time is just ordinary as well. Certainly there has been a huge player turnover in 9 years, with little consistent improvement. Sitton, Lang and the 2 young centers appear to be the exception in offensive linemen under his tutelage. Apparently they are just superior athletes, and "coachable", if you accept that all the others weren't. We've never replaced Clifton and Tauscher.

    Since 2008 A. Rogers ranks no. 1 in the league in interception percentage of 1.6 and QB rating of just over 105.

    The numbers seem to suggest that Rogers, and the Green Bay Packers offense, has excelled in spite of ordinary line play; not because of it. So, as Rogers gets older year by year, we stick with the same coach to develop talent to protect him, when he rarely has accomplished it in 9 years.
     
  15. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    IMO one of the main reasons it is difficult to assess Campen as an OL coach is the variable of talent he's had to work with.
     
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  16. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    All coaches are evaluated by the job they do. Beightol, in 7 seasons as o line coach, AVERAGED no. 6 in the league in offensive pass protection. His first line in 1999 was 8th, then 10th, 4th, 8th, 5th, 1st and 7th. His lines averaged 14th in run blocking, in spite of 2005 when TT let Wahle and Rivera depart in FA and our run blocking ranked 28th. He was fired by Sherman at the end of the year.

    McCarthy and Thompson accept the offensive line play year after year. Mike Tomlin has had 4 offensive line coaches since he was hired in 2007--2 in the last 3 years, and the Steelers' o line is again one of the best in the league. Tomlin doesn't accept mediocrity.

    Philbin should be offered his old job of o line coach, assuming MM doesn't want to change the o coordinator. Mike Munchak is the o line coach at Pittsburgh after being fired as Tennesee's head coach.
     
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  17. Patriotplayer90

    Patriotplayer90 Cheesehead

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    I have to agree with you..the team lacks fire, but I attribute that to the guys they bring in as well. They want accountable teammates who are disciplined, and they don't seem to have the locker room or off-the-field issues as many other teams. However, I don't see the passion in the players, or anyone really stepping up when it matters other than a few like Rodgers and Cobb, who are natural competitors.

    Ty Montgomery sums up the kind of player this team looks for...he's talented sure, but there were options with better receiver skills or return ability on the board. But they went with high character guy, albeit one who had many question his confidence, as well as issues with consistency (like we don't have enough of that already)

    Many of these players just don't seem like they live and breath football...Adams and Jones show as much passion on the field as we do when we are working our 9-5 jobs. And Lacy has hinted that football probably wouldn't be a part of his life if he had a choice.

    I think McCarthy is a good offensive coach...he's certainly got the most we could have possibly hoped for from Nelson, Adams, and Jones.

    But in key moments the coaching and passion of the players really shows, where an unknown rookie makes a game winning interception in the Super Bowl for instance. Or at the very least, a receiver makes a great catch or a kicker makes the name winning FG. It seems like situations such as these is when we falter, so I can't but into him being a great coach.
     
  18. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Yeah, having a guy on the roster beating up his child or wife would really help this team play better. :rolleyes:
     
  19. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Beightol also didn't have to deal with the ZBS which led to the idea that the talent acquired for the OL wouldn't "cost" as much in draft picks. What McCarthy and Thompson accept - and more important the talent they acquire for the OL isn't Campen's fault, is it? Nothing you posted contradicts the idea that the talent available to Campen is a significant variable in his ability to do his job. Look at the OTs available on the roster. Bulaga is good when healthy and Bakhtiari is battling injuries. Barclay is inadequate as the #3 OT. If you think one of the OL coaches could make a hobbled Bakhtiari and/or Barclay better I just disagree. (BTW, Thompson had no choice but to let Wahle walk.)
     
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  20. Patriotplayer90

    Patriotplayer90 Cheesehead

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    I think Davante Adams' child or wife could do a better job playing receiver than he does.
     
  21. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    I have no idea what input Campen has in evaluating offensive line talent. Maybe Thompson and McCarthy go with the guys he wants. Maybe not. The facts are clear: He's fielded average or below average lines the majority of his tenure. You can accept the results, change players, or change the coaching. The coaching change hasn't been tried.
     
  22. Patriotplayer90

    Patriotplayer90 Cheesehead

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    The current offensive difficulties GB is experiencing reminds me of the Titans, the closest NFL team to me. Whisenhunt was stubborn and tried the same things over and over that didn't work and never addressed the weaknesses. It was much like we are seeing-why not get DGB(Janis) in the game because your other receivers aren't performing, why can't you protect the QB, why can't you run the ball, etc.

    Lo and behold, as soon as the interim took over, DGB received more playing time and has produced despite "not knowing the playbook", offensive line changes were made and the protection has increased significantly, and he has made one RB who has shown the most promise the featured back, instead of alternating between 3-4.

    So TN has literally like 3 receivers on their roster, a rookie QB, terrible line, and no coach, yet they are neck and neck with us in passing offense. Unacceptable.
     
  23. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Whisenhunt went 3-20 as the Titans head coach, McCarthy has lost 21 regular season games since the start of the 2011 season. Mentioning those two teams in the same category is ludicrous.
     
  24. Patriotplayer90

    Patriotplayer90 Cheesehead

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    Yeah, it's not 2010 anymore...TN and GB have roughly the same amount of passing yards per game this year, despite the deficiencies in their offensive personnel and coaching, and us having a much more seasoned unit with some high dollar guys on the offensive side . That's really not acceptable.
     
  25. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    If you change players but not improve the quality of the players, changing the coach will make no difference. Again, what is your evaluation of the OT talent Campen has available to him? Here's mine: Bulaga was a first rounder who has struggled with injury, Bakhtiari was a 4th rounder who has battled injuries since preseason and that has ended any hope he would improve his play from last season. Barclay is a UDFA who has never been even adequate at OT - he's an OG. And Jeremy Vujnovich is a UDFA on the PS. You apparently think another OL coach can significantly improve the play of the current "talent" at OT. I think you are suggesting firing Campen just for the sake of it and ignoring the real problem: Lack of talent available.
     

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