Marvin Lewis: Replacement ref didn’t know defenseless receiver rule

[ivo610]

The Commish's job is #1 to protect the shield. If that is his number 1 priority then putting out high school refs and D3 refs is not protecting the shield.

The nfl needs to engage in serious discussions with the refs. A bad incident could be alot more expensive than what the refs want.

 

[gwh11]

CNN

Really? When would that have been?
On August 19, CNN had a Sports Illustrated reporter on, Jon Wertheim, who addressed this issue. No mention then of a demand of $400,000/year. Here's part of what he said, from the transcript:

WERTHEIM: The money is very little. The money is about $2.2 million for this year. This is a $9.3 billion industry. They are really going to have replacement refs over a different of $2.2 million? I'm dumbfounded by this. A year ago, we were talking about a player strike and real labor negotiations and splitting a pie. That made sense. This is pocket change. For a sport where the TV is through the roof and all this success and the franchise values are soaring, the NFL's wildly successful, the one issue they have is player health and safety. There's litigation. This is the one issue that could hurt the league. To have anything other than the best, most highly trained, highly regarded officials is just dumbfounding.

Obviously, people can disagree on issues. But if you don't back up your assertions with facts that are verifiable, it looks like you're pulling stuff out of your ****.

 

[GreenBlood]

Really? When would that have been?
On August 19, CNN had a Sports Illustrated reporter on, Jon Wertheim, who addressed this issue. No mention then of a demand of $400,000/year. Here's part of what he said, from the transcript:

Never mind. It was an article from 2001 that said 400% that keeps popping up on search engines for some reason. Regardless, they are still being paid significantly more per game and per hour than officials in any other sport in the entire world and that's not enough?

...one issue they have is player health and safety. There's litigation. This is the one issue that could hurt the league. To have anything other than the best, most highly trained, highly regarded officials is just dumbfounding.

Wait a sec... the officials start whining about money and suddenly they're regarded as "...the best, most highly trained, highly regarded..?" Since when? Do a google news search for "NFL horrible officiating" (without the quotes) and limit the search to the last 4 years and prior to March, 2012 and you will find a myriad of articles!

BTW, as far as player safety goes, did it every occur to you that the NFLRA is ALSO putting money before player safety? Did that ever enter into your thinking?

Are you really worried about player safety and "integrity of the game?" Then you should support the NFL's position that we need full time officials. That is the one and only thing that will actually improve the quality of NFL officiating across the board. Otherwise, we end up with the same crap sandwich we've been fed for the last 3 or 4 years and the ones serving it up get a big pay raise for it. The bottom line is that pay raises need to be EARNED. Have they earned it? Hell no.

The sensationalism from the sports media on this thing is getting old. There was nothing great about the old referees. Absolutely NOTHING. I say if the new guys are willing to sign on to a full time contract, give them the job. It'll be a rocky start, but after a year with full time training and preparation, it wouldn't take long before the old part-timers are long forgotten.

 

[gwh11]

Yikes!:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...penalty-turned-miniseries-140730407--nfl.html

 

[longtimefan]

Yikes!:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...penalty-turned-miniseries-140730407--nfl.html

The NFL would like you to believe that its current replacement officials are almost as good as the real ones it has locked out

Yeah sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[GreenBlood]

He was trying to avoid being hit..Will not disagree there..

Quarterbacks do exact same thing all the time..they slide to avoid getting hit.

So if they slide at the 50, or at the 1/2 yard line...Rule is the same, ball is put where he starts his slide

Took some time really checking this

from a COLT forum

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/9704-lucks-touchdown-run/


At least 3 Colt fans said Luck should have been called down at start of the slide..

Not sure why your so adamant that the Td was right call

Because I can use my damn eyes and brain. I don't look around for internet article writers to do my thinking for me. It wasn't a slide to protect himself. He was trying to get in low to get in the endzone. End of story.

 

[GreenBlood]

The Commish's job is #1 to protect the shield. If that is his number 1 priority then putting out high school refs and D3 refs is not protecting the shield.

The nfl needs to engage in serious discussions with the refs. A bad incident could be alot more expensive than what the refs want.

It's the NFLRA which refuses to have a "serious discussion". Their position is "Give us whatever the hell we want or we're going to keep acting like whiny babies." The NFL has upped their offer and the NFLRA refuses to budge. They are actually HOPING that something bad happens to someone so the NFL will cave.

BTW, since when to the so-called "real refs" protect players? Where did that nonsense come from? All they can do is call penalties and make ejections. They don't actually prevent anything.

 

[GreenBlood]

Yikes!:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...penalty-turned-miniseries-140730407--nfl.html

So either bring in Don King for remediation or fire him. Sounds to me like the rest of the officials were trying to correct him. Replace him, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Still better than Jeff Tripplett ever was.

BTW, sorry, but that pales in comparison to the fiasco that the "real refs" made of the 2001 Browns/Jags game.

 

[longtimefan]

Because I can use my damn eyes and brain. I don't look around for internet article writers to do my thinking for me. It wasn't a slide to protect himself. He was trying to get in low to get in the endzone. End of story.

Rule is, begin the slide, the ball is when you started the slide..

1/2 yard line should been ball placement

 

[GreenBlood]

Rule is, begin the slide, the ball is when you started the slide..

1/2 yard line should been ball placement

All scoring plays are subject to booth review. The officials in booth are not "fake officials" (as you so condescendingly like to call them) and they upheld the ruling. End of story.

BTW, I thought they did a good job in Green Bay tonight. No, correction: They did a good job in Green Bay tonight.

 

[longtimefan]

All scoring plays are subject to booth review. The officials in booth are not "fake officials" (as you so condescendingly like to call them) and they upheld the ruling. End of story.

BTW, I thought they did a good job in Green Bay tonight. No, correction: They did a good job in Green Bay tonight.

I tried to avoid this argument we have because both of us will NEVER convince the other..

But I do have to bring this up..

You want to use the booth review to prove Luck's slide was called right.....okay..

On the surface I would agree, as it is a very very close call to make..

You also are correct in saying all scoring plays are reviewed...And this one is not an exception.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

Rule states when slide starts, ball is placed at that spot...

Could not get a clear pic of when slide literally starts...

But I think we all can agree that he started his slide a fraction before this picture..And that would mean the ball didnt cross goal line, and should have been placed at the 1/2 yard line..

But a booth review should never make a mistake..But as you have stated, regular refs have made big blunders, and I will agree with 10000000% that they do make mistakes, even in the booth

Example

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/greg-jennings-fumble-no-call/


That was reviewed, and claimed a non fumble..Booth got it wrong...As the official on the broadcast states it was wrong.

Dont take my word for it...Our own writer Travis brought it up

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/dont-quit-your-day-job.38576/

Then this from USA Today

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-packers-referees-officiating-/1#.UEBc3aAXXyB

In a column posted today FoxSports.com, Pereira wrote:

I'm a fan of staying with the call that's originally made on the field, but in this case, I think there was clear video evidence that the ball was being pulled out of Jennings' hands before his calf hit the ground. It almost makes me wonder whether they even got to look at the last replay I saw before making the final decision.​

On Sunday, Mike Wilbon of ESPN's Pardon the Interruption took to Twitter to rip the refs for not overturning the Jennings call. He tweeted:

It's a freakin' fumble! Period. What a gutless ruling...just wrong, plain awful wrong...why have instant replay if you can't get that?​

This just shows that instant reply isn't always right..


Now---

You claim there are regular refs are in the booth, but doing what?? Not making calls on replays..

http://whodatdish.com/2012/08/29/no-end-in-sight-nfl-says-replacement-officials-here-to-stay/

We will have an officiating supervisor from our staff in the replay booth at each game whose job will be to help ensure correct penalty enforcement, administration of rules not involving fouls, operation of the game and play clocks, and game administration.

The supervisor will be able to communicate directly with the alternate official on the sidelines.

The supervisor will not be involved in either the instant replay system or any judgment made by the officials on the field. As in all games, the final decision will be made by the referee on the field and no decision will be revisited or changed once the ball has been snapped for the next play.

It isnt a big deal the replacement refs missed the booth call as regular refs have done it..

Just dont want you, or anyone else thinking that booth reviews are always correct...

 

[GreenBlood]

It isnt a big deal the replacement refs missed the booth call as regular refs have done it..

Just dont want you, or anyone else thinking that booth reviews are always correct...

Thank you for making sure I don't think that.. but here's the deal. Ben Roethlisberger had a near mirror image of that play either last year or 2010 except the result was a first down on 4th and 1. Mike Periera's explanation was that for the QB to be awarded the protections of a slide (meaning a penalty for getting hit), he has to initiate that slide in time for the defense to recognize that he is giving up on the play. If the slide happens too late, like when the defender is already fully committed to the tackle or hit, then he is not awarded that protection of a slide and likewise he is not subject to the limitations of a slide, meaning the ball is spotted like normal -- where the ball is at the point of contact. In other words, he said if the slide happens to late, the referee has the option to disregard the slide completely.

If you go look at the replay (instead of a still shot) it is clear that this is the exact same situation. Even if you think he slid to give up on the play (I don't, he got in low because that was the best way to get in), he got clobbered by 3 Steelers on that play. They weren't penalized because it was clearly too late for them to pull up and as such, the slide was not acknowledged and the ball was spotted at the point of contact, just like the Roethlisberger first down. So if it was a valid slide, as you contend, then it would have been a personal foul and the Colts would have had a 1st and Goal on about the 9" line. If it came too late, and wasn't a valid slide, as the footage shows, then it's spotted at the point of contact, and it's a touchdown. Personally, I don't think he was giving up on the play at all.

 

[GreenBlood]

I tried to avoid this argument we have because both of us will NEVER convince the other..

In what way were the officials so horrible in our game last night? Yeah, there were a lot of penalties, but both teams committed a lot of them. There was also a PI that could have been called on the offense but instead was on the defense, but we see that routinely with the "real refs."

I'm not convinced the "fake refs" as you call them aren't improving and won't be ready to go by next week. As I said, they did just fine in our game last night. But I shall digress.

So, let's put this to rest then. You've made a compelling case. I'll cry "Uncle." The "fake refs" are literally stupid. They are do not possess any ability whatsoever to improve as they become more accustomed to the entirely new circumstance in which they find themselves. The "real refs" are so good at their jobs that they deserve a huge raise and full-time benefits (even though they refuse to actually work full-time.) There is literally NOBODY else in the world who can do what they do. They are, quite simply, masters of their craft. Without them, injuries will increase tenfold and most games will be decided by bad calls, such as calling pass interference on the quarterback, or penalizing the punter for being offsides, or failing to stop the clock at the 2-minute warning. And these things will all be the NFL's fault for not giving in to every single thing that the "real refs" demand (Solidarity!) So the NFL better pay up or we will have to deal with poor officiating, which is simply unheard-of in the annals of NFL history.

 

[longtimefan]

In what way were the officials so horrible in our game last night? Yeah, there were a lot of penalties, but both teams committed a lot of them. There was also a PI that could have been called on the offense but instead was on the defense, but we see that routinely with the "real refs."

I'm not convinced the "fake refs" as you call them aren't improving and won't be ready to go by next week. As I said, they did just fine in our game last night. But I shall digress.

.

Show me where I said they were horrible last night

 

[GreenBlood]

Show me where I said they were horrible last night

Your implication over the last 3 days has been that none of these guys are capable of officiating a game properly. I will maintain that they did just as well as anyone last night. I actually liked the Referee's quick and simple approach to the mic, as opposed to Ed Hoculi's 30 second speeches.

 

[ivo610]

It's the NFLRA which refuses to have a "serious discussion". Their position is "Give us whatever the hell we want or we're going to keep acting like whiny babies." The NFL has upped their offer and the NFLRA refuses to budge. They are actually HOPING that something bad happens to someone so the NFL will cave.

BTW, since when to the so-called "real refs" protect players? Where did that nonsense come from? All they can do is call penalties and make ejections. They don't actually prevent anything.

Just curious, where did you get the information that the RA is refusing to negotiate? I highly doubt they are saying "give us what the hell we want!" as you put it.

Refs are expected to look for and spot concussions among other injuries.

Do you hate unions? This seems to me like it might be a deeper political issue to you.

 

[longtimefan]

Your implication over the last 3 days has been that none of these guys are capable of officiating a game properly. I will maintain that they did just as well as anyone last night. I actually liked the Referee's quick and simple approach to the mic, as opposed to Ed Hoculi's 30 second speeches.

Let me make this clear..

I think the replacement refs are capable of learning how to officiate in the NFL..They can and will learn from their mistakes..

I DO think they are WORSE RIGHT NOW on average than the refs we had all these years (notice I didnt say fake, so please omit your condescending remarks towards me about using that term) They have blown very simple calls...

Refs from the past may have done some bone head calls, but not as often as the refs now.

Again the refs now can get better, but I do not want them costing a game from a stupid non call, or call that was very wrong...That is my main and only issue.

 

[GreenBlood]

Just curious, where did you get the information that the RA is refusing to negotiate? I highly doubt they are saying "give us what the hell we want!" as you put it.

Refs are expected to look for and spot concussions among other injuries.

Officials are trained to do that at every level of football. Regardless, how many times have you seen an official send a player to the sidelines or call a trainer to the field?

Do you hate unions? This seems to me like it might be a deeper political issue to you.

Raises should be based upon performance, PERIOD. And the "real refs" haven't earned one. In fact, their product has gone downhill the past 3 seasons or so. And yes, I have absolutely no use most unions... particularly public sector unions whose salaries are paid by taxpayers and unions where the members are already highly paid. Either way, union or not, the "real refs" need to get back to work and EARN a raise. Until then, things will be just fine.

 

[GreenBlood]

Let me make this clear..

I think the replacement refs are capable of learning how to officiate in the NFL..They can and will learn from their mistakes..

Okay, excellent!

I DO think they are WORSE RIGHT NOW on average than the refs we had all these years (notice I didnt say fake, so please omit your condescending remarks towards me about using that term)

You certainly did. Here is a direct quote by you from post #32:

Since you claim the real ones are just as bad as the fake ones, then provide examples as to why you think that..We have provided evidence (per your request) why the fake ones are horrible.

See, you definitely called them "fake."

Again the refs now can get better, but I do not want them costing a game from a stupid non call, or call that was very wrong...That is my main and only issue.

But you're okay with it when the regular refs do it?

 

[longtimefan]

Okay, excellent!



You certainly did. Here is a direct quote by you from post #32:



See, you definitely called them "fake."



But you're okay with it when the regular refs do it?

I didnt say fake in the last post I made...I STOPPED doing it now, so you stop the condescending posts

We are not talking about the regular refs are we? We are talking about how bad the replacements are. But , yes regs can learn too, as they do every game...

 

[gwh11]

Officials are trained to do that at every level of football. Regardless, how many times have you seen an official send a player to the sidelines or call a trainer to the field?



Raises should be based upon performance, PERIOD. And the "real refs" haven't earned one. In fact, their product has gone downhill the past 3 seasons or so. And yes, I have absolutely no use most unions... particularly public sector unions whose salaries are paid by taxpayers and unions where the members are already highly paid. Either way, union or not, the "real refs" need to get back to work and EARN a raise. Until then, things will be just fine.

You state that "their product has gone downhill the past 3 seasons or so". Can you cite something to back that up? (Most of the egregious calls you listed earlier in this thread were older than that.)
The NFL grades the refs; can you show us their grades that would illustrate your point, for example?
The NFL and NFLRA are meeting as we speak. Despite the fact that you and Jerry Jones think everything would be just fine with the replacements, obviously the NFL does not, or they wouldn't be negotiating.
I think in the end--to your chagrin--they will come to an agreement, and the NFLRA will receive some concessions from the NFL (Another reason to curse those damn Zebras! Right?).

 

[GreenBlood]

I didnt say fake in the last post I made...I STOPPED doing it now, so you stop the condescending posts

How is it condescending to point out where you referred to them as fake?

We are not talking about the regular refs are we? We are talking about how bad the replacements are. But , yes regs can learn too, as they do every game...

Then why has the quality of the officiating in recent years declined?

 

[GreenBlood]

You state that "their product has gone downhill the past 3 seasons or so". Can you cite something to back that up? (Most of the egregious calls you listed earlier in this thread were older than that.)

Do your own google search. Complaints about the officiating has gone up in recent years. Part of that might be attributable to the annual rule changes in recent years.

The NFL grades the refs; can you show us their grades that would illustrate your point, for example?
The NFL and NFLRA are meeting as we speak. Despite the fact that you and Jerry Jones think everything would be just fine with the replacements, obviously the NFL does not,

To quote you, "Can you cite something to back that up?"

...or they wouldn't be negotiating.

OR... it could be that the NFLRA is worried about not getting paid at all this year and eventually being replaced permanently. There's two sides to every coin.

I think in the end--to your chagrin--they will come to an agreement, and the NFLRA will receive some concessions from the NFL (Another reason to curse those damn Zebras! Right?).

"To my chagrin"? I personally don't care if they make any concessions or not. Although I would expect some from the NFLRA as well. Regulars... replacements... in the end it won't make much difference either way.

BTW, the NFL's offer is already pretty damn generous according to the following:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/30/breaking-down-the-divide-in-the-nfl-nflra-disput/

average pay for NFL officials last season was $149,000. (Not bad for a hobby.) Under the NFL’s most recent (and perhaps final) proposal, the average official would earn $189,000 by 2018.

When you consider that they put in about 1/4 of the time NBA and NHL officials do and 1/6 of the time that MLB officials do, you can plainly see that they are by far the highest paid officials in the world on a per hour basis. I see no reason to sympathize with their "plight." The last paragraph of the article I cited sums it up perfectly.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It's a valiant struggle you're waging there GreenBlood, but it's in the eye of the beholder.

I've not seen anything from these replacements I've not seen many times from the regular refs. Heck, the regulars even managed to botch a coin flip for gosh sakes. There are a few questionable calls in nearly every game. One only needs to follow fan forums to have them all pointed out (at least the ones that go against the forum home team!)

It should be noted that there is so much inconsistency from crew to crew among the regular refs that teams actually scout them for their tendencies. That should tell us all something.

I think the howling from players and coaches to bring back the regulars comes from not knowing these guys, what to expect from them, that don't have a "book" on them yet.

If the media howled about every bad call with the regular refs the way they have in this preseason, the discussion would be about replacing part time refs with full-time dedicated NFL refs.

 

[GreenBlood]

It's a valiant struggle you're waging there GreenBlood, but it's in the eye of the beholder.

I've not seen anything from these replacements I've not seen many times from the regular refs. Heck, the regulars even managed to botch a coin flip for gosh sakes. There are a few questionable calls in nearly every game. One only needs to follow fan forums to have them all pointed out (at least the ones that go against the forum home team!)

It should be noted that there is so much inconsistency from crew to crew among the regular refs that teams actually scout them for their tendencies. That should tell us all something.

I think the howling from players and coaches to bring back the regulars comes from not knowing these guys, what to expect from them, that don't have a "book" on them yet.

If the media howled about every bad call with the regular refs the way they have in this preseason, the discussion would be about replacing part time refs with full-time dedicated NFL refs.

Absolutely. It's absolutely disgusting to listen to how much the commentators are in the NFLRA's pocket on this. Again, Collinsworth-less is the worst. Every time there's a questionable call this preseason, he goes, "Oh my! I don't know about that one! Wow. I don't know if I've ever seen that before. The NFL better get the real officials back on the field!"

I will grant that a few of these replacement crews are rather poor. But some of them have been very good, on the other hand. There are some very poor crews among the regular part-timers too. In fact, I'd say some of the better replacement crews should permanently replace a few of the regular crews. I think the crew from last night would be an instant upgrade over the likes of Jeff Triplett, Bill Leavy, Pete Morelli and Walt Coleman.