Marvin Lewis: Replacement ref didn’t know defenseless receiver rule

[GreenBlood]

So you'd just give the NFLRA a blank check? The NFLRA bears no blame in this? The NFL should give the NFLRA EXACTLY what they want with no concessions? Because that's what the NFLRA is trying to do. They haven't given an inch. The NFL has. The ball is in the NFLRA's court. But they're not willing to compromise. They're too busy "bargaining."

BTW, the call about Luck on the goal line was correct. Luck wasn't sliding. He was trying to get in low to dodge an incoming missile aimed straight at his head. You have to keep in mind that Chris Collinsworth is an idiot. Him saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

The bottom line is they make more per game than any other professional sports league. And they do NOT put in more overall hours than those officials.

 

[GreenBlood]

What are your sources for your numbers stated above? How do the pension plans differ? It's not a simple as you may think it is. I get the impression you take everything the NFL says about this at their word.

Other officials get a pension plan because they work with the NBA, NHL and MLB full-time. These guys are part time. When was the last time you heard of anyone with a part-time job getting a pension?

 

[longtimefan]

BTW, the call about Luck on the goal line was correct. Luck wasn't sliding. He was trying to get in low to dodge an incoming missile aimed straight at his head. You have to keep in mind that Chris Collinsworth is an idiot. Him saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

According to the NFL rulebook, a quarterback (or any ball carrier) can slide feet first to prevent a hit. When they do so, the ball will be considered dead when the player hits the ground.

He was trying to avoid being hit..Will not disagree there..

Quarterbacks do exact same thing all the time..they slide to avoid getting hit.

So if they slide at the 50, or at the 1/2 yard line...Rule is the same, ball is put where he starts his slide

Took some time really checking this

from a COLT forum

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/9704-lucks-touchdown-run/

Rule 7 Section 2 Article 1 section d
Quote
(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball is dead the instant
the runner touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet; or
Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.
(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.
(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his

slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.


Since he slid late, the contact wasn't illegal, even though the refs failed to apply the rules correctly during the play or after the play.

This would be a perfect example of why the NFL will have to give in to the real refs. The Colts benefited from these errors this time. They might not next time and next time might be a real game.

At least 3 Colt fans said Luck should have been called down at start of the slide..

Not sure why your so adamant that the Td was right call

 

[longtimefan]

Pure conjecture. These officials got thrown into the frying pan on very short notice. It's preseason for them too. They're coming along just fine.

.

Two of us have shown you more than enough evidence on this...So it isnt "pure conjecture" however you feel so strongly that the real refs screw up as much as the replacements, then maybe you should show us evidence that they do?

Keep in mind the replacements have only been doing this for 3 weeks * 31 teams... so the sample is much much smaller...

I bet you can't find as many horrible screw ups in the much larger real ref sample size

 

[GreenBlood]

He was trying to avoid being hit..Will not disagree there..

Quarterbacks do exact same thing all the time..they slide to avoid getting hit.

So if they slide at the 50, or at the 1/2 yard line...Rule is the same, ball is put where he starts his slide

He was trying to get down low because that was where the opening was. The guy coming over the top would have stopped him cold. He did not abort his attempt to get into the endzone. Roethlisberger has gotten a lot of goal line TDs doing the exact same thing Luck did.

 

[GreenBlood]

Two of us have shown you more than enough evidence on this...So it isnt "pure conjecture" however you feel so strongly that the real refs screw up as much as the replacements, then maybe you should show us evidence that they do?

Keep in mind the replacements have only been doing this for 3 weeks * 31 teams... so the sample is much much smaller...

I bet you can't find as many horrible screw ups in the much larger real ref sample size

If you want to whine about the current officials, blame the inflexibility of the NFLRA. Put the blame where it belongs. They are wanting to QUADRUPLE their salaries and are completely unwilling to budge. They are already the highest paid officials for the number of hours they work in professional sports. If you want to write them a blank check, what's going to stop them from demanding another quadruple in 5 more years.

 

[longtimefan]

If you want to whine about the current officials, blame the inflexibility of the NFLRA. Put the blame where it belongs. They are wanting to QUADRUPLE their salaries and are completely unwilling to budge. They are already the highest paid officials for the number of hours they work in professional sports. If you want to write them a blank check, what's going to stop them from demanding another quadruple in 5 more years.

Why do you keep harping on that? WE as posters can not fix that..I do not care why we have replacements (I have said this a few times now, not sure why you have missed it) Lets concentrate just on how bad the replacements are..That is what this thread started as..

If you want to whine about the negotiating of the refs and NFL, then make a new thread..

2nd request of this..

Since you claim the real ones are just as bad as the fake ones, then provide examples as to why you think that..We have provided evidence (per your request) why the fake ones are horrible.

 

[GreenBlood]

Why do you keep harping on that? WE as posters can not fix that..I do not care why we have replacements (I have said this a few times now, not sure why you have missed it) Lets concentrate just on how bad the replacements are..That is what this thread started as..

If you want to whine about the negotiating of the refs and NFL, then make a new thread..

2nd request of this..

Since you claim the real ones are just as bad as the fake ones, then provide examples as to why you think that..We have provided evidence (per your request) why the fake ones are horrible.

You don't remember them completely ******** up Superbowl 40? Or denying the Jets an obvious TD which would have put them in the Superbowl? Or botching a simple coin flip on Thanksgiving? Or ignoring an obvious fumble by Jerry Rice that denied us a possible trip to the Superbowl? The Music City Miracle (which was clearly a forward pass by a good half yard?) How about the no-call on the hit on Favre during the '09 NFCC where one guy held him up while the other went low to his knees from behind? How about the "tuck game" with the 2001 Patriots and Raiders? How about Ed Hoculi calling a fumble by Jay Cutler a forward pass when the ball clearly went BACKWARDS out of his hand? How about officials in Cleveland overturning a catch after which another play had ALREADY BEEN EXCECUTED. By rule, it was too late. But they said screw the rules and rightfully got pelted with beer bottles. Don't remember that on? Here:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

You wan to talk about horrible officiating. It does NOT get any worse than what happened in Cleveland.

I could go on... do you want me to?

I never said the new guys didn't have some improving to do. They do need to and there's no reason to believe they won't. They wouldn't have made it to Div II and III football without showing a certain degree of aptitude. There is absolutely no reason to believe they can't adjust. Officiating isn't rocket science. They had a lot of rule changes to get used to in VERY short order. There is no special talent required here. The regulars are not "gifted" in any extraordinary way.

 

[gwh11]

Other officials get a pension plan because they work with the NBA, NHL and MLB full-time. These guys are part time. When was the last time you heard of anyone with a part-time job getting a pension?

You think there are no part-time jobs that offer pensions?
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/11/09/top-10-part-time-jobs-with-benefits/
Here's a discussion of this that I found on a UPS employee message board:
http://www.browncafe.com/forum/f39/part-time-retirement-benefits-27975/
That took only a minute to find with Google. And we're not even talking about public employees.

 

[longtimefan]

You don't remember them completely ******** up Superbowl 40? Or denying the Jets an obvious TD which would have put them in the Superbowl? Or botching a simple coin flip on Thanksgiving? Or ignoring an obvious fumble by Jerry Rice that denied us a possible trip to the Superbowl? The Music City Miracle (which was clearly a forward pass by a good half yard?) How about the no-call on the hit on Favre during the '09 NFCC where one guy held him up while the other went low to his knees from behind? How about the "tuck game" with the 2001 Patriots and Raiders? How about Ed Hoculi calling a fumble by Jay Cutler a forward pass when the ball clearly went BACKWARDS out of his hand? How about officials in Cleveland overturning a catch after which another play had ALREADY BEEN EXCECUTED. By rule, it was too late. But they said screw the rules and rightfully got pelted with beer bottles. Don't remember that on? Here:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

You wan to talk about horrible officiating. It does NOT get any worse than what happened in Cleveland.

I could go on... do you want me to?

I never said the new guys didn't have some improving to do. They do need to and there's no reason to believe they won't. They wouldn't have made it to Div II and III football without showing a certain degree of aptitude. There is absolutely no reason to believe they can't adjust. Officiating isn't rocket science. They had a lot of rule changes to get used to in VERY short order. There is no special talent required here. The regulars are not "gifted" in any extraordinary way.

I "knew" you would do this, thats why I said this...

I said the small sample from the pre season for the fake ones...3 weeks of games and huge mistakes

You took samples spanning 15 plus years to find huge mistakes...Of course there will be screw ups..

You said it best...No special talent required..So why are the fake ones so bad at it?

 

[gwh11]

One thing is clear: More and more players and coaches are becoming impatient with the work of the replacements.
Despite the opinions of some fans who perhaps feel the NFL needs to save money on this issue (Let's get a few more refs from the Lingerie Football League! That'll show those NFL Officials!), people actually invested in the outcomes of the games likely will not stand for this much longer.
A new piece on this today:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/28/s...-nfl-replacement-referees-raise-concerns.html
I especially like this quote:
“I actually overheard one of the refs saying he only refereed glorified high school games,” Giants wide receiver Victor Cruz said recently. “I don’t even know what that means.”

 

[GreenBlood]

I "knew" you would do this, thats why I said this...

I said the small sample from the pre season for the fake ones...3 weeks of games and huge mistakes

You took samples spanning 15 plus years to find huge mistakes...Of course there will be screw ups..

... which you KNEW was not a fair comparison because the so-called "pros" were eased into their positions and not simply thrown into the fire and told to sink or swim.

You said it best...No special talent required..So why are the fake ones so bad at it?

Because the NFL is faster and there are about 25 differences in the rules from college to NFL and they had VERY little time to prepare in advance. It's called an ADJUSTMENT PERIOD. And that's what preseason is for.

 

[longtimefan]

... which you KNEW was not a fair comparison because the so-called "pros" were eased into their positions and not simply thrown into the fire and told to sink or swim.



Because the NFL is faster and there are about 25 differences in the rules from college to NFL and they had VERY little time to prepare in advance. It's called an ADJUSTMENT PERIOD. And that's what preseason is for.

You do know that they sat watching video of games before they pre season started?

but that does not explain why a downed punt at the 5 results in a touch back..How does that happen?

 

[FrankRizzo]

I agree: these refs have been very bad.
But normal refs are bad-very bad as well.
Let's not lose sight of the many terrible, and suspiciously odd, calls they have made. The real ones getting paid a ton.

You guys can't remember the game at Chicago on Monday night in 2010 where they serially r**ed us?
Touchdowns, turnovers, late hits, they got em all wrong, for the Bears.

 

[GreenBlood]

You do know that they sat watching video of games before they pre season started?

but that does not explain why a downed punt at the 5 results in a touch back..How does that happen?

Probably because the official that called the touchback mistakenly though he was standing at the goal line when he was actually on the 5.

How does Jeff Tripplett flip a coin, and right after the Steelers clearly say, "Tails" he immediately says, "The call was Heads..." How does that happen?

How does Jay Cutler pull the ball back to throw and have the ball slip backwards out of his hand and land 4 yards behind him only to have Ed Hoculi declare it to be an incomplete forward pass? How does that happen?

Mistakes have always happened and always will. These officials haven't made a single call that you couldn't image the so-called "professionals" making. The difference is that these guys are under a high powered microscope to a degree that the "professionals" haven't been subjected to.

 

[gwh11]

Give me a break. We're not talking about coal miners having their families threatened if they don't work 80 hours per week for $1.25/hour. We're talking about a group of mostly lawyers who are making a lot of money on the side for 5 months out of the year.

BTW, nobody is trying to take away the NFLRA's ability to bargain/demand whatever they want. But likewise, NFL is under no obligation to simply bow to their every whim either. The NFL has increased their offer for a raise. The NFLRA hasn't budged an inch. They are demanding $400,000/year for referees and umpires. That's just plain ridiculous.

The longer they hold out, the better the replacements will get and it won't be long before the NFL simply says, "No thanks, we're good."

You are obviously not comprehending things here.
They are not "demanding $400,000/year for referees and umpires."
Their position was stated as this:

NFL Statement: The concepts of “full time” officials and additional officials are two major stumbling blocks in the current dispute.
FACTS: The issues of “full time” officials and additional officials have never been serious issues in the negotiations. The NFLRA is not opposed to full time officials if they are fairly compensated. While the NFL has never made any compensation proposal, comparable positions in other professional sports at the 20 year level earn approximately $350,000 to $400,000 and are provided health insurance, a pension, time-off with pay and numerous other benefits.

The meaning of the above sentences differs dramatically from how you characterized their position.

 

[GreenBlood]

You do know that they sat watching video of games before they pre season started?

LOL... seriously? I suppose you'd expect a surgeon be be able to flawlessly perform a new procedure by just watching a video.

 

[GreenBlood]

You are obviously not comprehending things here.
They are not "demanding $400,000/year for referees and umpires."
Their position was stated as this:

NFL Statement: The concepts of “full time” officials and additional officials are two major stumbling blocks in the current dispute.
FACTS: The issues of “full time” officials and additional officials have never been serious issues in the negotiations. The NFLRA is not opposed to full time officials if they are fairly compensated. While the NFL has never made any compensation proposal, comparable positions in other professional sports at the 20 year level earn approximately $350,000 to $400,000 and are provided health insurance, a pension, time-off with pay and numerous other benefits.

The meaning of the above sentences differs dramatically from how you characterized their position.

I see, so you automatically accept the NFLRA's version of things as "FACTS:" After all, no union would EVER dream of misrepresenting the truth for their own purposes, would they? That's unimaginable, right?

 

[gwh11]

The NFLRA hasn't budged an inch. They are demanding $400,000/year for referees and umpires.

Still wondering...what's your source for this?
Or did you make that up?

 

[GreenBlood]

CNN

 

[longtimefan]

LOL... seriously? I suppose you'd expect a surgeon be be able to flawlessly perform a new procedure by just watching a video.

Pure conjecture. These officials got thrown into the frying pan on very short notice. It's preseason for them too. They're coming along just fine.

Nice attempt at the surgeon part...But this is not an operation..It is watching and judging things from their eyes..


http://www.indystar.com/article/201...l-official-rips-replacements-NFL-defends-them

Greg Aiello, NFL senior vice president of communications, defended the replacement officials.

“Overall the officials did a good job for the first week of preseason and they will get better,” Aiello said. “There were some mistakes as there are every week of every season. We have been training the replacements for two months very intensively. They will continue to improve.

I also heard as I posted before..The fake ones were watching countless hours of video tape to get things right.

So to say they been just thrown in, really is not true...They have experience with games, just needed to get up to speed on NFL rules ( I think there are 20 different ones)

 

[longtimefan]

Probably because the official that called the touchback mistakenly though he was standing at the goal line when he was actually on the 5.

How does Jeff Tripplett flip a coin, and right after the Steelers clearly say, "Tails" he immediately says, "The call was Heads..." How does that happen?

How does Jay Cutler pull the ball back to throw and have the ball slip backwards out of his hand and land 4 yards behind him only to have Ed Hoculi declare it to be an incomplete forward pass? How does that happen?

Mistakes have always happened and always will. These officials haven't made a single call that you couldn't image the so-called "professionals" making. The difference is that these guys are under a high powered microscope to a degree that the "professionals" haven't been subjected to.

I have said the real ref do make mistakes and it happens..SB loss, coin toss (and same ref blew a call the next week) I agree with you on that

However-----I have never seen a real ref call a touch back when the player was at the 5..sure maybe if player is at the 1 inch line..but the 5 yard line? If you say, it was just a mistake cuz the ref thought the guy was at the g/l--- then that ref is plain stupid..

All the ref had to do was LOOK at the ball and the defender..... That takes no skill, no training (as you said tossed into the fire) it was plain and simply a dumb *** mistake...Open eyes and he makes right call...No excuse whats so ever for it to be called wrong....

That team had to use a red flag to get it right..You want MM to waste a flag for something so stupid?

Nor have I seen a real ref call a rb down, when he is still standing and only one guy ATTEMPTING to tackle him..

Again you found examples over 10,000+ games..you are bound to find stupid ones..And please understand I agree real refs will make stupid mistakes...But not as frequent and often as these fake ones are..For every one stupid thing you say a real ref has done, I bet fake ones have done 5

The fake ones S_U_C_K

I am done with this...You will never convince me fake ones are just as bad as the real ones...and I will never convince you of the opposite..

 

[GreenBlood]

I am done with this...You will never convince me fake ones are just as bad as the real ones...and I will never convince you of the opposite..

"Fake refs". Nice. Good to know your usual condescending, holier-than-thou, judgmental attitude is intact...ROFL

 

[GreenBlood]

Nice attempt at the surgeon part...But this is not an operation..It is watching and judging things from their eyes..

Hey, you're the one who claimed that watching video was sufficient for training, not I.

 

[GreenBlood]

GB I am not sure why we are arguing this..I dont care what the real refs are asking or not asking or what ever..I just want the PROS back

In other words, you want the NFL to cry uncle and give in to the NFLRA's demands, right? Aren't you the one who was yelling at me for discussing which side needs to compromise?