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Lombardi, Ahman Green, and perception of acceptance of gays in NFL

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by gwh11, May 24, 2012.

  1. gwh11

    gwh11 Cheesehead

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  2. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    Interesting. Good read thanks for the link
     
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  3. GreenBayGal

    GreenBayGal Cheese Goddess

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    I'd never heard of that about Vince. Further proof of what a great man he was. Kudos to Ahman and Michael S.
     
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  4. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Attitudes in the USA are also changing on this. Lombardi was ahead of his time.
     
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  5. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Gay teammate? As long as I'm not the C and he's not the QB.
     
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  6. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I hadn't either. The writer gave no source.

    Likewise to David Tyree. It's abundantly easy to take the politically correct position. It's much harder to voice your opinions when they don't fit the current PC model, no matter what the issue. Political correctness = thought control.
     
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  7. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    BTW, doesn't this belong in The Atrium?
     
  8. gwh11

    gwh11 Cheesehead

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    Lombardi had a gay brother, Harold. I think David Maraniss touched on the subject in his book 'When Pride Still Mattered'.
     
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  9. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    No longer the closet.
     
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  10. gwh11

    gwh11 Cheesehead

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    In terms of specific sourcing regarding Maraniss' book, he does report a quote from Lombardi from when he was with the Redskins. They had drafted a player in 1967, Ray McDonald, who was gay, and apparently everyone on the Redskins knew this. In speaking to another coach about him, Maraniss quotes Lombardi as saying "I want you to get on McDonald and work on him and work on him--and if I hear one of you people make reference to his manhood you'll be out of here before your *** hits the ground."
    In the same paragraph Maraniss states "His brother Harold was gay. He had made it a point throughout his coaching career that he would not tolerate discrimination of any sort on his teams."
     
  11. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Yeah, I knew all about Harold. Just not the alleged comment to his team.
     
  12. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Hmm... wonder why nobody else ever said as such. With all the lore surrounding Lombardi, you'd think someone other than Maraniss would have made mention of it too. Interesting nonetheless.
     
  13. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    From the article:
    There are a lot of stories about Lombardi standing up for his black players as well. Part of Lombardi’s genius was his ability to “read” and motivate players individually, so he didn’t treat all his players “equally” but the difference in treatment had nothing to do with race. His “color-blindness” had to go a long way to gain the respect of black players in the locker room. And it was an advantage when he arrived at Green Bay as there are stories of informal quotas for blacks among many NFL teams. Of course Lombardi would have none of that…
     
  14. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    This is awesome. One of the many reasons why Lombardi is a great mentor. Such wisdom! We could all learn to accept people for who they are and find ways to love them.
     
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  15. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I think this is one of those things that gives a warm fuzzy on the surface but becomes much more complicated under the surface. It's is very easy to say when merely accepting that which society and media tells us should be accepted. It's easy to accept gays. You get a big cookie if you do that today. It gets more difficult when referring to the so-called "undesirables" of society -- the junkies, the vagrants, the crack-whores, the in-bred, the perverts, the morbidly obese, the severely mentally ill, those with poor hygiene. When you openly accept and express love to those groups, you get the same looks of contempt that society throws their way.

    It's also more difficult to accept those who don't share the politically "correct" viewpoint. We'll stay with the gay example, since that is the context at hand. As I said, it might be easy for you to stand up and publicly state, "My friend here is gay and I accept him for who he is without attempting to change him." But what about the person who believes based on his or her religion that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle? Are you equally willing to publicly say, "My friend here believes that homosexuality is wrong and I fully accept him for who he is and would not attempt to change him."

    My point is not to endorse any particular viewpoint here. My point is that what you suggest may be far more difficult than you realize, if not impossible.
     
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  16. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    Actually it's no more difficult than minding your own business.
     
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  17. GreenBayGal

    GreenBayGal Cheese Goddess

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    You have the privilege of having your own opinions and I have the privilege of having my opinion of you, Greenblood.
     
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  18. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    How so? The comment was, "We could all learn to accept people for who they are and find ways to love them." How can you love someone by simply "minding your own business?"
     
  19. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Of course you can. But it's a double-edged sword, so long as you're comfortable with that. Many people aren't. I take it you don't agree with the sentiment of accepting people as they are and finding ways to love them?
     
  20. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    Dig deep enough into someone else's business and you are bound to find something you hate. Don't dig and you'll probably get along just fine.
     
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  21. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    Do we have to express love for all 7 billion people on this planet, explicitly, in order to pass your test, GB? I would say not.

    I think what Darth was saying is that, UNLESS the person with the so-called undesirable trait has an affect or interaction with ourselves, whatever lifestyle they choose/need to live is not our business to comment on. I agree with this.

    If someone with any of your suggested list of undesirables was to somehow be part of my life, it is often easy to love them as they are, in my eyes, a person with a story. Not just a statistic or stated characteristic. For example, I knew a guy who was a self-proclaimed ****-phobic, right up to when he became friends with (via a Saturday basketball pickup game) a gay man. Suddenly, a characteristic just became a real person.

    I think it is very possible to love those who are in my life, no matter what their dispositions. Even those with bad breath. For all the rest of the world? I don't care, as long as they stay within the law and not hurt others (e.g. Your pervert example... If he breaks the law...why should anyone love him?)
     
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  22. GreenBayGal

    GreenBayGal Cheese Goddess

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    Well put, MISTER Cheesehead.
     
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  23. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    A hilarious take on the whole gay issue. I'm not embedding the video due to f-bombs and such. Mods, I apologize if this needs to be deleted.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtJ_sDRRVVI
     
  24. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    IMO the error of this post is to mix bad behaviors with innate qualities. For example lumping those engaging in bad behaviors like junkies, crack-whores and perverts with the severely mentally ill is indeed mixing apples and oranges. The drug addicted initially chose their behavior while no one chooses to be severely mentally ill. (BTW, some probably small percentage of the morbidly obese don’t choose their fate either.) The best example of prejudice against an innate quality is race: No one chooses their race. I place homosexuality in the same category but I understand some don’t. This isn’t the place for a lengthy exposition explaining my opinion so I will sum it up with this: No amount of indoctrination would have made me homosexual; I am innately heterosexual. And I know gay men who appear to have been innately homosexual from a very young age.
    In this country, this sentiment is often expressed by devout Christians, particularly those who identify themselves as evangelicals, or “born again”. I think its fair to say many of them do not view homosexuality as a choice. As I posted I disagree with that but even if we accept the premise that homosexuality is a choice and a sin, I have a question for those who accept that premise: Why the concentration on the sin of homosexuality rather than the sexual sins of adultery and fornication (all sex outside of marriage) which are clearly choices and sins? What percentage of the population do you suppose engages in homosexuality vs. those who commit adultery and fornication? The words of Jesus from Chapter 5 of Matthew:
    Although he endorsed the laws of Moses, I don’t find any New Testament verse which quotes Jesus explicitly condemning homosexuality. Since he explicitly condemns adultery, again, why the concentration on the sin of homosexuality? Reread the quoted portion of GreenBlood’s post above and replace “gay” and “homosexuality” with “adulterer” and “adultery”. How many among us, Christian or not, attempt to change the adulterous behavior or the engaging in fornication of our friends and acquaintances?


    To bring this back to Lombardi and Kitten's quote: Lombardi clearly makes the distinction that IMO GreenBlood does not in his post. Black or white, Italian heritage or European, gay or straight – the "who they were" - didn’t make an iota of difference in his eyes. His team was a meritocracy: The "under-talented" (because of the nature of his business), the undisciplined, the poorly motivated and the lazy – the "what they did" - were shown the door.
    Agreed. It may be impossible but for Christians it’s the goal, the target. Again from chapter 5 of Matthew:
    Talk about impossible.
     
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  25. gwh11

    gwh11 Cheesehead

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    I'm not going to just sit here idly by while you badmouth Brett Favre.
    But seriously, this is bigger than a "PC" issue. There is a growing mountain of scientific evidence that indicates a biological or genetic origin for homosexuality. There is nothing merely fashionable about this; it is solid science that continues to convince more and more people. Even NFL players. Tyree will find himself in a smaller and smaller minority of people who find certain religious tenets somehow more convincing than advances in science on this matter.
    The actor featured in your avatar, Javier Bardem, is an atheist who said after the legalization of same-sex marriage in Spain in 2005, if he were gay he would "get married tomorrow, just to **** with the Church." I guess that probably wouldn't sit well with Tyree.
     

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