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lockout/decertfication

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by neilfii, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Nope, I haven't read anything different. I'm simply trying to find logic in all of this. I think the last offer made to the players before the lockout was more than decent, for the players to refuse the offer and still demand to see the books leads me to think something else is up. That is purely my opinion on the matter. As to what that suspicion is (granted such a suspicion exists in the first place) I have no idea what it might be.

    For what logical reason would they have to refuse a damn fine offer, continue to press to see 10 years worth of records and thusly cause a lockout? That's the question I was trying to seek the answer to. As I am neither a player nor an owner, I don't know why they think they need to see them. Perhaps just to rule them out of their argument so they can move on with negotiations? Is this going to become the brick wall, the issue both sides refuse to budge on? I hope not. Those books exist not only to keep an employer's own records and accounts, but to cover their tails in the event of a dispute. Being an employer bears great responsibility and you are subject to accountability in times such as these. To be honest, I'm not fully sold on the idea that any employer should have to disclose their books just because somebody wants to see them. I think the owners should show them, not because anyone is justified in requesting them, but because it would draw a quick end to the players argument. I am on the side of the players, you gathered that already. But honestly, I think this whole lockout nonsense is deplorable and shameful to say the least. I think the thing we can all agree upon, regardless if you are for the owners or players, is we all want a resolution that would be acceptable to both sides so we can get back to talking football.
     
  2. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Perhaps because DeMaurice Smith is more interested in enhancing his reputation and job security than in agreeing to what you call a “damn fine offer”?

    Perhaps because Smith and the NFLPA think they have the owners at a disadvantage by decertifying because the league’s antitrust protection goes away in that circumstance?

    Perhaps because they know the next step will be to go before Federal Judge Doty who is clearly on the players’ side?

    Perhaps because they think the financial information from 2001 to 2005 will be much more beneficial to their case than just the financial information from 2006 to 2010 which may indeed show the most recent CBA (from ’06) is showing a declining profits trend as the books of the Packers show?

    I honestly don’t know but I certainly don’t assume the NFLPA is being logical or fair. (I don’t assume that of either side.)

    I do think it’s interesting that you admit the players have refused what you characterize as a “damn fine offer”, admit you can find no logical reason for the players refusal of that offer, admit you aren’t “fully sold on the idea that any employer should have to disclose their books just because somebody wants to see them” and yet still are “on the side of the players”. Perhaps your brain is at odds with your heart here?

    BTW, I don’t think a lockout is any more deplorable than a union strike.

    Absolutely agree – I hate this!
     
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  3. Wood Chipper

    Wood Chipper Fantasy Football Guru

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    i back up kitten :)
     
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  4. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    But trying to find the logic in all this is maddening at best, perhaps paradoxical. Whether you find it logical or not, I still think, according to my own logic, that if the NFLPA refused such a "damn fine offer", they must have some reason for it other than to annoy the living hell out of the owners. Otherwise I would consider them barking mad. I think we don't have all the facts here. I think some matters in this case are not being made public. Therefore, I base my opinions on what I know (what has been stated) and what my gut instinct (my Spider Sense ;) ) is telling me. When I analyze an argument, I like to carefully consider both sides and play devils advocate to some extent. I also have to wonder if that final offer is now null and void or is it going to be extended again if the book opening case comes to naught. Somebody is going to have to yield here at some point. To me, it looks like both sides are trying to see who is going to blink first. The sad part is, the people who may blink first may just be some of the fans, as in turning their backs on both the players and owners alike.
     
  5. GreenBayGal

    GreenBayGal Cheese Goddess

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    Me too. I would like to see some posters use "IMO" once in a while. Just sayin'
     
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  6. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    All I have to say is:

    **** both parts. There's no possible scenario that would make it impossible for both parts to continue. They're only fighting for more money, that's it. The owners are not gonna go broke if the status quo is kept, nor the players will go bankrupt if the $1bi is given to the owners.

    I know that's no surprise, but noone's watching our butts on this. There are a lot of people that are gonna stop watching because of this. I'm not one of them, but I sure respect them. Don't you think ticket prices et all are gonna raise regardless?

    And I would be one of them if I rooted for any team other than the Packers. If there's one thing that I'll never do in my life is root for someone else's company.
     
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  7. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    Not that I'm real sympathetic to guys who make millions to play with a ball but I just get sick of the owners coming out of the woodwork every few years trying to sweeten their deal, often on the backs of the taxpayer for a stadium. It makes their claims of not enough return on their investment ring a little hollow with me.

    If I were more conspiracy minded I'd be wondering if the owners lost their shirt in other investments over the past few years and are trying to make up the gap with their recession-proof football franchise.
     
  8. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    And so what if it is? I mean, they do own the team, don't they? If anyone should be entitled to earn more, it should be the folks who actually own the damn thing.

    I know a lot of you like to bitch and whine about the owners using tax payer dollars to finance stadiums, but the fact is it's a smart business move. If you're a business man, and you get an offer of a brand new, fully financed stadium from one city vs. having to come out of your own pocket to build a new one in your current city, which option would YOU choose?

    If you say you'd come out of pocket, you'd be lying. No smart business man would willingly part with their own money when they can use and profit from other people's money.

    You're also ignoring the fact that the teams have to pay back that tax money used to build that new stadium. It isn't just free money given to them.

    Besides, I'd much rather funnel tax money into something I actually enjoy and would use that would actually pay me back, like a brand new football stadium, than have it go to the waste and crap our tax dollars currently pay for.

    By the way, most cities considering tax money expenditures on football stadiums put the tax up for a vote in the form of a ballot measure. Simply vote no if you don't want to use your tax dollars to help finance or keep your team locally.
     
  9. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    I hear ya, I'm not debating the business acumen of using others money or their right to do whatever they see fit with the business they own. But it's not like Denver offered Pat Bowlen a bunch of money for a stadium out of the blue, he threatened to move the team which is kind of a dick move to do to your fans to get a tax hike. We're buying what they're selling regardless though so more power to em.

    But with all of the BS flying around, their prior behavior makes me skeptical about their current complaints and it's left a bad taste.
     
  10. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    I lived in Houston during the whole Bud Adams-Oilers-Titans saga. Trust me, it sucked for all the die-hard Oiler fans.

    We are truly lucky to be fans of the public-owned GB Packers.

    5,000 years from now, when archeologists dig up the ancient city of Green Bay- they will find all the artifacts: Helmets, gear, cleats, quite a few old Miller Lite cans, and the legendary world record 34 Lombardi trophies- several of them won in a row (circa ~2010 AD).

    All these treasures will be dug up right where the records said they would be... 1265 Lombardi Avenue.
     
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  11. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Ah, yes.

    El Dorado.
     
  12. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    This thing sitting in a Minneapolis court room is interesting. Would love to here a certain state supreme court justices take on everything...
     
  13. YoKramer

    YoKramer Cheesehead

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    Ok so if they decertify the union and are treated as individual people could the owners then negotiate with each person for a new contract? The current CBA is done and gone and the Union is no more so if they want to keep their jobs agree to a contract per person and play some damn football.
     
  14. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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  15. VersusTheMoose

    VersusTheMoose Greatest of All-Time

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    The NFLPA definitely shouldn't have brought the college players into this. Considering no one watches the draft for them and this is such a big moment in their life I think they should have kept their mouth shut. This is like their university graduation; totally unfair asking them to sit it out.
     
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  16. PackAttackUK

    PackAttackUK Cheesehead

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  17. PackAttackUK

    PackAttackUK Cheesehead

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  18. Wood Chipper

    Wood Chipper Fantasy Football Guru

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    both sides are retarded
     
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  19. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    can I make a pitch where teams pay for their own stadiums, dont charge season ticket holders for pre season games, ban PSLs, donate a million to each community each year, ban players with felonies, completely cover all medical expenses of former players, ect?
     
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  20. Darth Garfunkel

    Darth Garfunkel Cheesehead

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    It's starting to look like 2 crackheads fighting over half a hamburger tossed out a window at a stop sign.
     
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  21. Wood Chipper

    Wood Chipper Fantasy Football Guru

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    whats psls?
     
  22. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    More evidence the players aren't interested in actually working out a deal, and instead would rather litigate- A source told Adam Schefter today that the players absolutely will NOT negotiate until the hearing, set for April 6th. That's 23 days they're apparently willing to squander just to litigate a new settlement:

    Report: NFLPA* source says there’s “no chance” of negotiations before April 6 | ProFootballTalk

    It's an awful big gamble to take too, because Judge Nelson could decide to go ahead an allow the lockout. That will destroy any leverage the players might have.

    People can continue to try and blame the owners all they want, but it's becoming more clear that the players are the ones holding things up.
     
  23. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    Right, but again, threatening to move a team to a city that is offering a better deal is a negotiating ploy. It's smart and it's shrewd, and in the end the owner usually gets what he wants. Or he doesn't and the team moves.
     
  24. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    This is correct, though if the judge rules the decertification is valid, we'll still have football next season, and conceivably every season thereafter while the case is settled in the court room.

    However, if the judge rules the decertification is a sham (And let's be honest, it is,) then there will be a lockout for up to 6 months or until they agree to what they want, whichever comes sooner.

    After 6 months, the union can decertify again and life goes on, unless a ruling is made absolutely prohibiting decertification this time around. By that time it could be too late to salvage the season though, so who knows..
     
  25. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well, that wasn't the smartest move by the NFLPA. If they keep going down this road there won't be a NFL for the college players to draft into.
     
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