Lions - Studs and Duds

Pokerbrat2000

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Thanks Pokerbrat. Extraordinarily interesting statistical analysis. I found it very enlightening though I'm not sure I'd consider it gospel truth.
Agreed on none of it being gospel truth. A lot of "draft success grading" is very unscientific and speculative. Imagine using a top 10 pick on a guy that gets injured or does something else to end up not ever playing football again. Suddenly, he is a "terrible" pick. Jordon Love is a "terrible" pick in some peoples eyes, because he has played very little and "had the Packers drafted 'this guy', they would have won a SB or 2". Some consider Micah Hyde a great pick for a 5th rounder. I would say for the Packers, he was just an ok pick. For the Bills though....he was an Awesome pick (by the Packers).

Given how good the Packers have been over the last 30 years, I would say the organization is doing something right. Whether that is drafting, hiring, signing of FA's, etc., I don't think there is one thing you can point to and say "this was their downfall".
 
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Totally acceptable. I was just poking fun of Captain, because as of late, he has been very disagreeable. Then again, losing can create discomfort and tension, even for Packer fans. ;)
He has a different opinion than you. That used to be acceptable.
It’s totally acceptable to have varying opinions. We are in an opinion forum. However that said, there’s a fine line between forming an opinion and shooting dozens of hyper critical responses on a continuum. I would argue that an opposing “opinion” in high volume and directed at the same posters becomes destructive and disrespectful to the opinions of others and thus is construed as condescending in nature. Thus could be said that more important than offering an opinion is respectful delivery of that opinion. As layman say, it’s not what you say (opinion) it’s how you say it (delivery)
Of course this is just my opinion :whistling:
 
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milani

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It’s totally acceptable to have varying opinions. We are in an opinion forum. However that said, there’s a fine line between forming an opinion and shooting dozens of hyper critical responses on a continuum. I would argue that an opposing “opinion” in high volume and directed at the same posters becomes destructive and disrespectful to the opinions of others and thus is construed as condescending in nature. Thus could be said that more important than offering an opinion is respectful delivery of that opinion. As layman say, it’s not what you say (opinion) it’s how you say it (delivery)
Of course this is just my opinion :whistling:
It is a highly regarded opinion..In my opinion!
 

Pkrjones

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It’s totally acceptable to have varying opinions. We are in an opinion forum. However that said, there’s a fine line between forming an opinion and shooting dozens of hyper critical responses on a continuum. I would argue that an opposing “opinion” in high volume and directed at the same posters becomes destructive and disrespectful to the opinions of others and thus is construed as condescending in nature. Thus could be said that more important than offering an opinion is respectful delivery of that opinion. As layman say, it’s not what you say (opinion) it’s how you say it (delivery)
Of course this is just my opinion :whistling:
With this said...why did you & a few others gang up to drive @captainWIMM away? He's got a different opinion & isn't afraid to share it (at least he wasn't until 2 days ago)?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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With this said...why did you & a few others gang up to drive @captainWIMM away? He's got a different opinion & isn't afraid to share it (at least he wasn't until 2 days ago)?
Nobody drove the Captain away, he's got thicker skin that that. Guessing he's busy traveling....to Green Bay. I think he was getting tickets for both the Cowboys and Titans game. I for one love to "bicker" back and forth with Captain, he plays fair and doesn't resort to name calling or going off the deep end.
 
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With this said...why did you & a few others gang up to drive @captainWIMM away? He's got a different opinion & isn't afraid to share it (at least he wasn't until 2 days ago)?
gang up? Granted we’ve had our differences, however I have given him a “like” and have had responses that were more than cordial to his posts and as recent as a few days ago.
We all have abrasive debates at some point, we’re human beings it’s in our sinful nature (short term) I can’t speak for others, but I don’t harbor ill regard for @captainWIMM and if I saw him walking with his car out of gas, I’d give him a ride or use my own gas to restore him. Thats irrelevant whether or not I thought he’d reciprocate. That’s the truth and I’m not one to hide behind my feelings. You’ll know where I stand, even if it’s not what you want to hear.
 
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Nobody drove the Captain away, he's got thicker skin that that. Guessing he's busy traveling....to Green Bay. I think he was getting tickets for both the Cowboys and Titans game. I for one love to "bicker" back and forth with Captain, he plays fair and doesn't resort to name calling or going off the deep end.
I can get him pretty aggravated and get him off kilter though! I’ve got a little J’aire in me and we like to spar,l as he’s like a formidable Receiver. He gets a little verbal, but he makes me stronger and often forces me to do my research on topics of debate.
I respect that.
 

milani

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gang up? Granted we’ve had our differences, however I have given him a “like” and have had responses that were more than cordial to his posts and as recent as a few days ago.
We all have abrasive debates at some point, we’re human beings it’s in our sinful nature (short term) I can’t speak for others, but I don’t harbor ill regard for @captainWIMM and if I saw him walking with his car out of gas, I’d give him a ride or use my own gas to restore him. Thats irrelevant whether or not I thought he’d reciprocate. That’s the truth and I’m not one to hide behind my feelings. You’ll know where I stand, even if it’s not what you want to hear.
I am sure a lot of the " debate " would be much softer if our record was 6-3 instead of 3-6. It has an effect on ALL of us.
 

captainWIMM

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Captain you made a statement that every team in the NFL drafts better than the Packers then you put up a metric that shows they are in the middle of the pact. Also your statement did not say in the Gute era. You conveniently added that caveat later. Carry on boys.

Glad I scrolled down, you took the words right out of my mouth. The "Metrics" that Captain chose, rank the Packers 18th.

My bad, I wanted to speculate on what another poster implied and not post my own opinion. I wasn't clear in pointing that out though.

With that being said I would have expected the Packers to rank worse than they do since Gutekunst took over, especially since the 2020 draft.

As a side note, when talking about the current front office it should be pretty obvious than the years Thompson was in charge should be ignored.

Also, who the hell is putting any metrics on the 2021 or 2022 draft just yet? Might even be too early for the 2020 draft "final evaluation".

The numbers I posted don't include the 2022 draft at all as PFR doesn't assign approximate value after until a season is finished.

I agree it's too early to make a fair evaluation about the 2021 and '22 drafts but the early returns are hardly promising.

You would make a great politician Captain, they can't keep their stories straight either. ;)

Oh no, I would be a terrible politician.

I realize that this is probably mostly about the Love pick for you. Even though Gute has now drafted 48 players, signed quite a few Free agents and a boat load of UDFA's.

Most of the Gutekunst's other picks haven't worked out since 2020 either. When evaluating his drafts free agency needs to be ignored.

I guess I view Rodgers, an 18 season vet, the QB of the team and a guy they are paying $50+Million per year, as someone that is viewed as a leader of the team, by fans, teammates and coaches. I won't even talk about his pouting about wanting a bigger role in some of the decision making.

In my opinion you mistake Rodgers being the face of the franchise with him automatically being the leader of the team because of it.

Potentially you have actually stumbled upon his biggest weakness, he isn't really that great of a leader.

Neither of us have any idea about what kind of leader Rodgers actually is.

He has a different opinion than you. That used to be acceptable.

I have realized that as well. A lot of posters have huge issues with others having a different opinion.

Jordon Love is a "terrible" pick in some peoples eyes, because he has played very little and "had the Packers drafted 'this guy', they would have won a SB or 2".

The reason Love was a terrible pick is that everybody aside of Gutekunst saw it coming that he will hardly play.

Given how good the Packers have been over the last 30 years, I would say the organization is doing something right. Whether that is drafting, hiring, signing of FA's, etc., I don't think there is one thing you can point to and say "this was their downfall".

The Packers having had two HOF quarterbacks starting for the last 30 years is the only reason they have been that successful.

With this said...why did you & a few others gang up to drive @captainWIMM away? He's got a different opinion & isn't afraid to share it (at least he wasn't until 2 days ago)?

Thanks for stepping up for me, Pkrjones, but I won't make it that easy for others to drive me away.

Nobody drove the Captain away, he's got thicker skin that that. Guessing he's busy traveling....to Green Bay. I think he was getting tickets for both the Cowboys and Titans game.

I'm sorry, totally forgot to tell you that because of the London game I postponed my trip to Green Bay to next season. Otherwise I would have written some of you to meet for a beer.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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With that being said I would have expected the Packers to rank worse than they do since Gutekunst took over, especially since the 2020 draft.
I agree it's too early to make a fair evaluation about the 2021 and '22 drafts but the early returns are hardly promising.

So really it comes down to the fact that you didn't like the 2020 draft? What is odd about that, 7 out of 9 of the picks are still on the team. Only 5th round pick Kamal Martin and 6th round pick Stepaniak didn't pan out. Just a quick scan of the first 3 rounds of that draft, tells me just how bad some of the picks were for other teams. So as of today, I wouldn't call the 2020 draft a bad one for the Packers.

The reason Love was a terrible pick is that everybody aside of Gutekunst saw it coming that he will hardly play.
I buy insurance for my truck, house and health. I hope that I don't have to use it, but if I do, I am glad it is there. I don't think Gute or anyone expected Love to EVER beat out Rodgers as the starting QB. However, Gute and others had no clue as to how long Rodgers would be around. Rodgers has proven this point to be true quite a few times since.

In my opinion you mistake Rodgers being the face of the franchise with him automatically being the leader of the team because of it.
If Rodgers isn't the leader of the team or at least the offense, who is? I honestly can't believe that you don't think his teammates view him as at least one of the leaders of this team.
 

captainWIMM

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So really it comes down to the fact that you didn't like the 2020 draft? What is odd about that, 7 out of 9 of the picks are still on the team. Only 5th round pick Kamal Martin and 6th round pick Stepaniak didn't pan out. Just a quick scan of the first 3 rounds of that draft, tells me just how bad some of the picks were for other teams. So as of today, I wouldn't call the 2020 draft a bad one for the Packers.

FWIW Vernon Scott isn't on the team anymore as well. The first three picks of the 2020 draft didn't produce any starter for the Packers though, that's definitely an opportunity missed. In addition the 2021 draft doesn't look overly successful at this point either although I agree it's too early to fairly evaluate it.

If Rodgers isn't the leader of the team or at least the offense, who is? I honestly can't believe that you don't think his teammates view him as at least one of the leaders of this team.

In a perfect world the face of a franchise would be the team's leader as well but I'm fine with someone else taking over that role. Like Charles Woodson did during the team's Super Bowl run in 2010 for example.
 

milani

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FWIW Vernon Scott isn't on the team anymore as well. The first three picks of the 2020 draft didn't produce any starter for the Packers though, that's definitely an opportunity missed. In addition the 2021 draft doesn't look overly successful at this point either although I agree it's too early to fairly evaluate it.



In a perfect world the face of a franchise would be the team's leader as well but I'm fine with someone else taking over that role. Like Charles Woodson did during the team's Super Bowl run in 2010 for example.
Reggie White comes to mind in regard to the team of that era.
 

captainWIMM

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He's still listed on the roster(IR). Perhaps they waived him injured and nobody picked him up, so he reverts back until an injury settlement is made.

According to the team's website Scott isn't on injured reserve but was released on August 23.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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According to the team's website Scott isn't on injured reserve but was released on August 23.
According to the NFL Site, as well as Over The Cap, Scott is still on the Packers Roster and on IR. From the little that I can find, they didn't release him with an injury settlement and still retain his rights for 2023. Maybe they haven't given up on the 7th rounder.



 

captainWIMM

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According to the NFL Site, as well as Over The Cap, Scott is still on the Packers Roster and on IR. From the little that I can find, they didn't release him with an injury settlement and still retain his rights for 2023. Maybe they haven't given up on the 7th rounder.




It seems you're right as according to the official transactions from NFL Communications Scott was added to the injured reserve list a day after being waived injured in August. It's strange he's not listed on the team's official website but whatever. He doesn't tip the scale much when evaluating the 2020 draft though.
 

captainWIMM

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Agreed, not yet anyway. Given the Packers are leaving him on IR, instead of out right releasing him (with an injury settlement), his time in GB might not be done.

True, let's see if Scott gets another chance at making the roster next year.
 

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