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Just How Good Does the Defense Need to Be?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by BorderRivals.com, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. BorderRivals.com

    BorderRivals.com Cheesehead

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    Obviously, the defense needs to improve from last season. But just how much improvement is needed considering our offense? Top-ten defenses comprise 38 of the 46 Super Bowl winners. But, at the same time, 15 of the most recent 24 Super Bowl teams boasted top-ten offenses.

    I personally believe the Packers only need to return to respectability - i.e. have an average defense in order to truly contend for the Super Bowl. Basically, this means the middle point between our 2010 and 2011 defenses. Our offense is so lethal that we don't need to field a top-10 defense. At the same time, as we showed last season, we also can't have a terrible defense. With early reports from camp, it seems the defense is on its way to fielding an average defense, if not better. I'm anxious to see how Perry, Worthy, Hayward, etc. play when the real action starts tomorrow.

    I break this down a little further in our most recent post: http://wp.me/p29VCs-9o.
    But, what are your takes on how good our defense needs to be?
     
  2. packerfan4ever

    packerfan4ever Cheesehead

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    They need to be good when you play the Bradys and the Brees you need a defense,to get after those guys they need to tackle and not give up so many yards,we had quit a few leads last year just to see them dwindle think that will change a bit this year.
     
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  3. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    The defensive needs to rank about 15th or 16th in the league. Perry needs to become a pass rusher and take heat off of CM3. Jerel Worthy, Mike Neal, Mike Daniels and other defensive linemen need to push the pocket. As long as quarterbacks don't have seven seconds to throw, the Packers should win 14 games.
     
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  4. Mr Pickle

    Mr Pickle Guest

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    I agree and disagree. It would be nice to have a top 10 defense. Why shoot for anything other. I was more than disappointed last year with Caper's ineptability (is that a word? ) 'sorry'...to adjust or at least try to when teams were constantly moving the ball at will...? It seemed as if Clay was the only person who's motor was 100% of the time... the rest were going through the motions (especially Capers). He needs to produce this year or Thompson should look elsewhere. We will not have a deep run in the playoffs if the defense plays close to where they were last year. Defenses in the league are to smart and will key in on the offense if our defense sputters... Let's see, keeping my fingers crossed. Go Packers!
     
  5. thepackers1fan4

    thepackers1fan4 Pack attack 4 ever!

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    having an average defense would win us games yes, but who just wants to have an average defense? I would like to see these guys step up their game because they have a lot of potential and could be ranked a top 10 defense.
     
  6. wxman2003

    wxman2003 Guest

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    Packers need to finish in the top 10. They were number 5 two years ago when they won the Super Bowl. AR is not going to have another all time NFL record setting year with 122 qb ranking. If he has a qb rating 105 which is what he has averaged in his career, which is that high because of last year, it will translate to more int's and less TD's, which will require the defense to play a lot better. The Packer defense 2 years ago was top 5 because of a pass rush. So far this preseason, no one has stepped up to prove that the defense is better and that Matthews will get help. Perry and Worthy have yet to grasp Capers defense, and it may take a year. Both seem lost most of the time. Hayward is a bust and likely will be waived at no cost to the Packers. So in other words, the secondary will get worked over again. Not their fault, but they always get blamed for giving up big plays.
     
  7. milani

    milani Cheesehead

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    Obviously, teams will figure out our offense and we cannot expect to put up 30-40 points every week from that side of the ball. If we had a running game as well teams would then have to pick their poison. But we have not had a dominant one in nearly a decade. It would be nice to keep your defense off the field for a while I would think we would have to get to middle of the pack as far as yards are concrned but more important is that we can generate turnovers like last season.
     
  8. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Capers was more to blame then anybody else if you ask me.
     
  9. wxman2003

    wxman2003 Guest

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    Capers can only work with who he has. He had nobody outside of Mathews that could rush the passer. Their linebackers stunk and couldn't fight their way past a wet noodle and couldn't cover a rock. Yes, some fault lies with the coaches because no one knew how to tackle or follow assignments, but you have to remember, most football players are not the brightest coming out of college. It's hard to fix stupid, very hard.
     
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  10. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    It depends on how good the offense is. Teams win on point margin and turnover margin. That can be driven by a great D and a "don't F'it up O" or a great O and a "bend but don't break" D. The Packers are obviously of the latter variety. So, if the O is a 450 pts/15 giveaway team, the D can afford to be a 330 pts/30 takeaway teams. A team that is ~ +7 in point margin per game and ~ +1 in turnover margin per game they'll be in the playoffs. 330 pts/30 takeaways is pretty much right at the top 10 break point in both of those categories.

    But here's the kicker. If the Packers do pan out with the above O and D, but the O decides to give the ball away 4 times in a playoff game, the D can't suddenly be expected to turn into the Steelers or take the blame. It is the story of that 2nd window of opportunity the Packers had from '01-'04. The D wasn't great, but it was good/fair. Coupled with the top 3 O the Packers were a playoff team. But the Packers gave the ball away hot and heavy come the playoffs (particularly the washout games) and the D was suddenly supposed to be a Force or be held responsible (because lord knows Favre couldn't take the fall for his 52.1 composite QB rating in those '01-'04 washout games).

    The Packers were no more skewed than pretty much the rest of the NFL over those 4 years, with the exception of but a few teams, they simply didn't sustain their strengths in crunch time and the tendency was to blame the weaker side of the ball that was designed to be that way. The Packers had no more holes than the majority of the rest of the NFL, if not much less, but the strong side of the ball crashed and burned with regularity. Thinking teams can have great O and D at the same time is becoming a pipe dream. Very few potent and balanced teams the last decade and getting rarer.

    And so the Packers will be a top tier playoff team if they can score 450 and give up 330 and have a +15 turnover margin. So a top 1 or 2 O with an 10th-12th D is enough. If it seems fragile, welcome to the 2000's NFL. And a championship will require maintaining that formula, just as the Ravens or Steelers' formula requires they only give up 13 pts per game. If they decide single elimination is the best time to give up 28-31 points, they're not going to win. Skewed and fragile is the modern reality in the NFL. Though balanced and mediocre is closing the gap (e.g. Giants, Cardinals).
     
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  11. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Just good enough
     
  12. azrsx05

    azrsx05 Cheesehead

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    Finally people who agree on Capers. I think we have some good talent on defense, but are not being used properly. I agree on not changing or adjusting game plans when the other teams are just getting chunks of yards. If the defense plays near what they did last year. We'll be one and out again. Playoff teams will have Qbs that will pick that defense apart. In my opinion and I know it's just my opinion and will get flamed for it, I think we should get a different D coordinator.
     
  13. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Our current defense was designed to showcase Woodson. His play has diminished, and its time to re-tool the defense to showcase a different, younger player. Say... Matthews?
     
  14. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Not "flamed" but how about just "challenged"? On another thread you posted:
    I answered:

    "Capers has been the Packers DC for three seasons now. In ’09 his D was 7th in scoring D, allowing 18.6 pts/game. In ’10: 2nd in scoring D allowing 15 pts/game and last season 19th in scoring D allowing 22.4 pts./game. Beyond that in the passing league that is today’s NFL, his Ds have finished first in the league with 30 INTs, second in the league with 24 INTs, and first in the league with 31 INTs respectively. Add in the fumbles recovered and Capers’ Ds have averaged forcing 2.3 turnovers per game. So in his three years in Green Bay his Ds have averaged surrendering 18.7 pts/game while McCarthy’s offenses have averaged 29.3 pts/game. (All stats are regular season results.)

    The D was bad last season, no doubt about that. Certainly Capers shares responsibility for that. But do you think there was an effective pass rusher he left on the bench? Should he have benched Williams because of his injured shoulder? Does Thompson share any of the blame? Should Capers be judged on his entire body of work in Green Bay or just one season? Just curious: How could a Packers fan not be a fan of his scheme during the 2010 season?"

    I don't think my response can fairly be considered "flaming" but you didn't respond. BTW, I appreciate fans who thoughtfully challenge conventional wisdom, care to respond to the questions I posed above here?
    - - -
    To answer the question posed by the thread, IMO Capers' D has to be average by his standards in Green Bay. And I'll post it again: How the D performs late in the season is more important than how it does early. And that plays right into the youngsters on D gaining experience as the season goes on.

    BTW wxman2003, no way Hayward will be waived, perhaps you meant Hargrove? If it is Hargrove you meant, he has received very limited snaps because of his suspension. As I remember it, it will cost the Packers nothing to keep him on the roster for the first half of the season and then he'll be available, fresh legs and no wear and tear, at very little cost. He may be waived, but I'll be surprised if he is.
     
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  15. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Without pass rushers Capers was very limited in what he could do last year. It was obvious that there were personnel issues when you look at an offseason that brought in so many players that have shown they can get after the QB. I, for one, cannot lay the fact that the D's sack/pressure numbers fell flat on it's face last year on Caper's.
    He actually scaled back what he wanted to do because the pressure packages didn't work causing the high number of +25 yard plays we saw. You send 'em you better get 'em. That didn't happen and the D got burned badly.
    Capers choices were to send pressure and get burned for quick scores or put more DB's in the game and hold down the points enough to let our offense outscore the other team. A bad deal either way, but hey, we won 15 games.

    No question the D has to get better and I agree that a middle of the road ranking would probably improve the team enough to compete with the better teams in the playoffs that will go for the throat in any weak area we show. A consistant pass rush is a must to accomplish this and I think we have the interior guys and Perry along with Mathews and a little Woodson now and then to make that happen.
     
  16. Pat4DaPack

    Pat4DaPack Cheesehead

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    With how good the offense is, I'm not sure if it matters. We have playmakers, im expecting big things.
     
  17. GeeDogWarrior

    GeeDogWarrior 0 - 0

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    People hating on Capers?
    Name me the immediate impact players we got for him heading into 2011 compared to what we let go.
    We got So'oto/MD Jennings/Davon House/basically backup developemental players, compared to letting Nick Barnett and Cullen Jenkins go, then Nick Collin's goes down... so now we're left with Basically a tired Raji and a Double Teamed Matthews...Tramon is our best coverage guy, now he's basically playing with a hand tied behind his back, rest of the secondary is stupid, neither safety could step up and do Nick's job of covering the deep pass and people wanna hate on Capers? :confused:

    Now after acquiring pass rushers and young secondary players this off season, let's see how this season plays out, if the defense flops again, then hate on Capers.
     
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  18. Mr Pickle

    Mr Pickle Guest

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    Honestly.... I thinks Capers is an ***. Or has his head up his ***..... either way, the guy needs to gooooo!
     
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  19. Mr Pickle

    Mr Pickle Guest

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    To late.... I already hate Crapers.... He says... the "young guys are our biggest challenge"... duh, get off your *** Crapers and do your job.... His hair even sucks!
     
  20. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    I'm posting this from another site without a link to it as I don't want to give any consideration to another forum. I think the author makes some good points. For my two cents I think Capers could have and should have done better last year.

    "The most important person on Green Bay’s defense this season won’t be wearing a uniform and he won’t be standing on the sidelines. Instead, he’ll be wearing a rug and sitting in the press box. If this defense, one with more questions than answers at this point, is to be significantly better than it was a year ago, Dom Capers is going to have to be at the very top of his game. He wasn’t anywhere close to there in 2011.
    The Packers are paying Capers over $2 million a season to be their version of Dick LeBeau. He was more like Bob Sanders last season. Granted, it’s hard to be a quality defense without a pass rush and with Charlie Peprah starting in the secondary, but that doesn’t excuse giving up more yards passing than any team in NFL history. It also doesn’t excuse poor gap control, shoddy tackling and missed assignments. The defense was an embarrassing mess a year ago, and the buck has to stop at the man at the top.
    Capers didn’t forget how to coordinate a defense overnight, so what happened? That’s hard to say with any degree of certainty, but perhaps he wasn’t as prepared for the season as he could’ve been. You can be sure that every offensive coordinator on the Packers’ schedule spent countless hours during the lockout designing ways to attack Capers’ schemes and blitz packages. Did he work just as hard on his end? Maybe, but it sure didn’t look that way. It seemed as if most offensive coordinators saw his blitzes coming from a mile away. And it seemed as if he was painfully slow to make adjustments of his own.
    I recommended Capers for the defensive job back in January 2009 because I respected the work he had done in Pittsburgh, Carolina and Miami. I also remember reading something about Capers around that time (don’t ask me where). The gist of the story was that his defenses usually started out well but regressed after the first few seasons. I did the research, and for the most part, the hypothesis was pretty accurate. I didn’t think all that much of it at the time, but now I can’t stop pondering it. Can you imagine if the defense actually gets worse? Well, you can stop worrying. Thirty-two is as low as it can go."
     
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  21. Mr Pickle

    Mr Pickle Guest

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    Even a 'slight' improvement is not going to be enough. Anyone that relies on an offense to constantly carry a defense is very much shortsighted. I sincerely believe this will be the end of Capers in GB (I hope I'm wrong) but you are correct about offenses seeing the blitz coming from a mile away.... that was obvious. I'm sure if Matthews did a candid interview it wouldn't bode well for 'Crapers'...... He hung him out to dry for at least 6 games last year. He is resting on his laurels and where will that take us in 2012? We'll have to wait and see... It won't be pretty....
     
  22. Mr Pickle

    Mr Pickle Guest

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  23. thepackers1fan4

    thepackers1fan4 Pack attack 4 ever!

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    The problem is not in Capers it's in the defense simply not executing the way their supposed to, I mean look at the year we won the Superbowl we have basically the same defense minus Collin's but our defense executed better that year and that's why we won the Superbowl. The defense has started sleeping and the young guys are NOT making good decision's, Dom Capers is a good couch his players just aren't executing.
     
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  24. Mr Pickle

    Mr Pickle Guest

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    The truth is.... we have a ton of young talent on D... it's up to him to make it work... motivate and bring it to the top... He's not doing that.... as a leader he's not cutting it. Our defensive schemes are obvious and offenses are not intimidated in the least by what we are brining to the table... he needs to mix it up.. at least change his wig weekly.....
     
  25. thepackers1fan4

    thepackers1fan4 Pack attack 4 ever!

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    I agree we have a ton of talent on D but I still believe that we just simply aren't executing and you can't blame it all on Capers.
     

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