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Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bruce, Dec 6, 2005.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would have you believe???

    I know we live in an age of instant gratification, where information access is instantaneous and our attention-deficit culture demands we hit the reset button hit as soon as the going gets tough. Yet, knowing all of this, I still find myself asking – do most fans really believe that being a GM or HC is as easy as it seems to be when playing Madden 20??, could they truly be so clueless?

    In most Packer quarters Ted Thompson is either: a “do nothing Ron Wolf wannabeâ€
     
  2. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    There was an extension signed before the season began that determined Ted Thompson's coaching direction of the team. The first losing season of coach Sherman is not sufficient reason to fire the coach.

    Ray Rhodes for example had lost the team and discipline broke down. I believe the team is holding together well given the circumstances. If the defense was worse and there incidents showing a lack of focus and discipline, then perhaps a change would be in order.

    Getting another coach who will tear down and change everything is not the answer. The greatest single reason the Packers began their downhill slide last year was the former GM. The Head Coach will stay.

    Who in the NFL is better? Pete Carrol was not that successful in the NFL. College Success is based on recruitment. Until someone better is found let Sherman turn it around.
     
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    It will be an interesting story to watch unfold.
     
  4. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Cheez...

    Sorry..but i've been hearing that crappola for 5 years now...while better qualified coaches have been landing in Cincinnati, Chicago, New York, Tampa Bay, etc..etc...

    How long do you let this crap go on?

    Do you also believe we should give Rossley a fair chance to turn things around? After all..maybe 5 years isn't long enough....

    Maybe they should have 10....

    Does everyone agree to that?
     
  5. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Can't say I agree to it at all....Sherman's reign has just about exhausted itself and the only downer to it all is that it will probably mark the end of Favre's career. I am not quite ready to go through the era of Randy Wright, Dilweg, etc.
     
  6. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Thanks for taking the time to write that, Bruce. It is another example of how I often read higher quality analysis here in the Packer Forum than I do in any newspapers or magazines. It is indeed way too early to judge Ted Thompson, although I do lean a little more towards pessimism at this point. I didn't like the Sherman contract extension, and I thought the Bubba Franks situation was handled awkwardly. And speaking of awkward, I think Bob Harlan brought Thompson in under awkward circumstances, having to work with a coach who had just been stripped of the GM job. It is all a very shaky situation right now. I'm hoping that Thompson has a master plan that will become apparent within a year or two, resulting in a return to prominence for the Packers. But at this point, it's just a hope.
     
  7. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Pack66...if TT fires Sherman, shouldn't he have to beaccountable for the extension? That's a 6 million dollar mistake. While it doesn't affect our cap it does affect our cash flow and could have been used for signing bonuses. I believe Sherman will be back. TT had achance to make a decision on Sherman. He has done so. He may have pulled the trigger too early but I think he has to live with it now....at least for another season. Otherwise he looks like a major baffoon.

    Let's look at the chain of events should he fire Sherm.
    -TT is hired
    -TT takes a few months to evaluate the job Sherman is doing.
    -TT extends Sherman's contract for 2 years at 3+mil a year (the same as he was making as Coach AND GM)
    -Packers have a ton of injuries and Sherman suffers his first losing season but keeps the team fighting.
    -Favre states he probably wouldn't be back without Sherman.
    -TT now fires Sherman, wastes 6 mil and runs Favre into retirement.

    Sounds like a legacy anyone would want.

    BTW...pack66...you never answered my other what if. digs did. Making tough decisions is what it is all about.
     
  8. sixone220

    sixone220 Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    i think people are real quick to run the coach out when the team is losing. i think he's done a decent job. the gm duties were too much and it showed. i've never been a fan of rossley but it seems that it would be pretty tough to just get rid of him.

    these great coaches that are landing all over the league? i'm not sold on lovie. how many times has he lead his team to the PO's? TB shelled out to get gruden. it's not like he was just hanging out looking for a job. for every good coach signed, there's also a mooch.
     
  9. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Coaching during the season is a matter of getting your players and their talent to match up and take advantage of the other team which is doing the same thing. Last game the Bears blitzed more than they had all year to counter Brett Favre. The Packer D held kept them to 3 FG's dispite some bad field position. This week a new plan is formulated and worked. Training camp and off season they are working players into the coaches way of playing football(Jim Bates defense and WCO)

    GM is longer term. Last spring I was posting about free agents after the 05 season. I'm sure Andrew Brandt and Ted Thompson look farther than that.
    Unless things get out of control each coach requires a few season to prove he can work.

    Marty Mornhingweg brought the WCO to Detroit but Batch couldn't grasp it in a few weeks and he was replaced too soon. The West Coast Offense did not catch on with the Lions. 2 coaches later they seek answers.

    The Steelers with the lowest revenue and seating capacity in the league cannot keep signing their players as they leave for other teams. The talent goes down and the losses pile up. They build a stadium, get the cap in order, and begin to win again. The coach stayed through it all.

    The Packers had a bad GM who has been replaced. The talent level suffered and has to be replaced. IMO not that different from the Steelers some years ago. Going through musical chair coaches and becoming the
    Lions would be a possibility.

    These are not the 1999 Ravens who have gathered good draft picks for a few years and are ready to make a move. This team is similar to the 1992 or 1999 Packers. This is a team with a few blue chippers and a lot of white ones. Some will progress. Some will be replaced. Some more blue chips are needed.

    Longwell's foot, Ben Steele's fumble recovery, and luck masked the slide last year. Things are getting better without a coaching change. We all will feel much better next August. Assembling a great team takes more than snapping the fingers.
     
  10. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    One problem California...

    SherRossley is no Bill Cowher...

    SherRossley is more like a "pink chipper"...and you can't just blame it on "personnel"...a coach has to know how to win..or at least get better..with the personnel that he is...

    This is not happening with SherRossley....
     
  11. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    We've been in every game this year while not having a top WR, RB, TE for a while and two new guards on the O line. The play calling / selection has me really irritated. Whoever is doing it, needs to change it up. The damn announcers are even able to predict the packers next play and its been like that for about four weeks now.
     
  12. net

    net Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Thank you Bruce for taking the time to intelligently lay out the situation in Green Bay. My thoughts are similar to yours.

    I've kept my hand in the debate here to hopefully raise the point that instant gratification..."FIRE EVERYBODY"...doens't necessarily bring the desired results. I think you will see that in Detroit, where 'FIRE EVERYBODY' happened, and I suspect they will be in the toilet awhile.

    Tony Dungy is one of the finest coaches in the NFL. He rarely raises his voice, yet gets great respect from players and those around him. Tony was released in Tampa because he didn't take the team to the Super Bowl.(They were annually a finalist in the playoffs).
    Jon Gruden comes in, takes Dungy's team to the Super Bowl(could the same thing have happened if Tony stayed?)then promptly ran the team into the toilet. Only after a large increase in support staff and PERSONNEL DEVELOPMENT has Gruden brought the team back above mediocrity.

    Dungy goes to a team that was the league laughingstock in Indy. He employs the same system there and with the acquistion of some incredible talent, has brought the team to the verge of an undefeated season. Tom Moore was the offensive coordinator under the former regime, yet achieved nothing close to this until Manning, James and Harrison all walked onto the field together.(and many others--including a new emphasis on defense).

    My point? Changing coaches changes systems. In Dungy's case in Indy, he was able to take the infrastructure there and build on it, along with some luck and skill in the draft and FA. Gruden wanted "his" system, and in so doing, took a good team to the toilet before finally finding some stability. They still don't have a great QB in Tampa, and it will be their downfall.

    Those of you screaming for change are asking to put a figurative bullet in an empty chamber and spin it. Mike Mullarkey is the latest one to fail, even though he was given the tools at Buffalo. He had all the makings of a great team-maker. Joe Gibbs wins some Super Bowls, so he knows what he is doing, but is likely to hang it this year, as the road back is too hard for a 65 year old man. Maybe ditto for Bill Parcells. Bill Bellichick was compared to Lombardi last year and they are going to the playoffs only because everyone else stinks. Nick Saban has taken the Dolphins far, hasn't he? Mike Nolan at San Fran?

    The Packers could find a good candidate to move forward with. But I don't think there will be a coaching change this year. TT is said to be a cold-hearted, calculating person. Why on earth would he extend Sherman if he wasn't going to keep him? Tightwad Ted? C'mon. I think he sees that THE SYSTEM IS FINE, just the talent within it was old or not good enough.

    CHANGING THE SYSTEM might well produce an even worse result, i.e., chronic losing. You would also likely have to change the personnel to match the system. Turnover of personnel, change, long term losing until(like Gruden) you can turn the corner. Why not keep the current system and plug the holes with better players?

    One losing season is not the end of the world. But setting yourself up to potentially lose for many years is a distinct possibility unless you get lucky with the new system. Not worth the risk.

    I simply don't see a rising star like Mike Holmgren on the horizon. Pete Carroll isn't going to Green Bay...are you nuts? With an opening likely in Oakland or Arizona? Carroll also was loser in the NFL.

    If Sherman goes, there's only one guy I think could carry the team forward and that's Jim Bates. It still doesn't make economic sense, but at least the defense would have some continuity.
     
  13. GBnative

    GBnative Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    It's popular to say that it's to early to judge TT, and it is to early to pass any kind of final judgement, but we cetainly have enough data now to make some preliminary assessments. I think almost all observers will agree that his veteran FA signings were total busts. They took up money, cap space, and most importantly practice time from those guys who were actually going to finish the season. They may have been "bargains" but the team would have better off if they had never been signed.

    All though much less definitive, a preliminary evaluation of the draftees is only slightly better. Whittacker started off strong, but faded, especially when he went up against high quality DTs. Collins was handed a starting job with essentially no competiton and has not made any glaring errors or huge mistakes, but neither has he clearly established himself as a quality starter. I think it would be difficult to claim that Collin's rookie season was significantly better than that of Jue or Marques Anderson. None of the other draftees had done anything but show a few flashes of ability. I would feel a lot better about this draft if we could say definitively at this point in the season that the Packers managed to come up with at least one quality starter.

    To date, TT's performance has not filled me with any confidence in his abilities as a GM. I sincerely hope that time proves me wrong.
     
  14. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Yeah, other than the fact that Collins is probably near the top of the team leaders in tackles, he brings the wood a la Chuck Cecil. I think he is significantly better than Bwajuh "out of position once again" Jue and Marques "watch me disappear for several games in a row" Anderson.
     
  15. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    net..

    You're leaving out a few things here..of course...

    one: all of the coaches that you mentioned above are better than Sherman and I would take them in GB in a heartbeat. We're talking about the "quality" of an nfl head coach here....and in many people's eyes...Sherman just doesn't have that "quality"...and Rossley has it even less...

    two: whether you want to admit it or not..the Packers have been "in the toilet" as you put it...for a few years now..not just one....and several years ago..when they did have their chances...it was "coaching decisions" in big games that blew it for them...

    three: Brett Favre...it is well accepted fact that Brett Favre has pulled Sherman's *** out of the fire for 4 years now (this year is an exception)...and i would be very curious how your coach Sherman would have faired without him....i know how he would have faired and would not want to keep him around when Favre retires to prove a point...

    four: the theory that there's no one better out there...(this one is the most comical)....Ask Cincinnati..or Chicago...or Tampa Bay...or Jacksonville..or Carolina.or New York..or Notre Dame even..if they'd like to trade coaches with us...? All of these coaches were available during Sherman's tenure...He could have been fired after the Philadelphia debacle and we'd have the ship righted by now...(and the jury still out on Miami, Cleveland, and Buffalo)

    One Year net? No..we are talking about FIVE YEARS...not one...FIVE...many people saw the writing on the wall...some didn't...doesn't change the facts...
     
  16. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    P@ck66. You need to step out more and look at the big picture. You mention all these cities with great coaches, but you're using Sean Salisbury analysis...look at who's best now, when they fall, ignore them or rip them apart, then latch on to the next person, who, at the moment, is successful.

    Belichek and Reid were your favorite candidates for coaches 2 months ago, you couldn't stop talking about them, yet in the post you just wrote, you never refer to them once as coaches you'd like to see.

    You aruge that all of these coaches are "better than MS," and your justification for this is subjective, based on a weakness (or strength) that we know the team so well. DePack (from Delaware) mentioned that a lot of the east coast coaches (e.g. Reid) would have the exact same stuff said about them that we gripe about w/ MS, even months ago when they were winning. All of our "poor game decisions," "can't win in the playoffs," or "this was a stupid play call" critiques are, often, generic "insert name here" types of arguments.

    Does MS have weaknesses? YES!!! But so does EVERYBODY, and often they are just as glaring as MS' weaknesses...we're just too focused on the Pack, and not involved enough w/ other teams to see the forest from the trees.

    Even Bates, who has done a fantastic job has had weaknesses. He couldn't "make game time adjustments" to MN's running attack after halftime in both games, which, ultimately is what cost the Pack the game.

    And this "MS would suck w/out Brett" argument is weak...It'd apply to ANYONE! Would the Packers have gone to the SBs w/out Brett?!? I doubt it, so does that make MH a crappy coach? No, it just says you need some talented players to win as a coach.

    If you advocate for a coaching change, fine, so do a number of ppl, but don't assume that MS is THAT much worse than everyone, or that a new coach alone will mean the Pack will be 13-3 next year.
     
  17. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    and Bellichik and Reid too...Musscy...(would take them in a NY minute..)

    (what i'm referring to is "quality")..these coaches are simply "better" than MS..who is mediocre..middle of the Pack type coach..who would be probably best suited for a small college somewhere..but not in the NFL...and not with the GB PAckers...

    AND..Musscy..in your rush to defend SherRossley..you didn't follow my argument...

    (I stated..coaches WHO WERE AVAILABLE...during Sherman's tenure..neither Reid or Bellichick were available..)

    and MS's weaknesses are too glaring to overlook...Isn't it possible Musscy that just as he was over his head as a GM..he is also over his head as a HC? His loyalty to a questionable supporting coaching staff is another reason. And his decisions during gametime..his always getting outcoached..or out manuevered, and his inability to motivate are other big reasons...

    Just for a minute..compare a coach like Mike Shanahan and Mike Sherman and what comes to mind? Are these two coaches at the same level..according to you?

    Because I think the GB Packers should have a coach on that level..don't you?
     
  18. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    P@ck

    You ignored my comment on how your accusations apply to every other coach, but that aside...

    MS v. Shanny. I don't follow the Broncos too closely, but I'd consider them approx. on the same level. Both have obviously benefited from a quarterback for success and both have been fairly consistent at fielding winning teams, although haven't advanced far in the playoffs (w/out elway). Shanny (or his assts) has put together probably the best running system in the NFL as evidenced by consistency over the years, and a long line of running backs that have been able to be inserted in and achieve success. Sherman (et al) too have had some running success w/ a lot of backs (prior to this year, Ahman most yds of any back since 2000, Najeh had 500+ the year Ahman went for 1880). I don't know much more about Devner's D, so I'll drop it here, but I see them as being very similar.

    Although it was short and somewhat ambiguous, there is your answer, and more importantly is the sort of argument I'm requesting from YOU for all of this coaching talk...

    Give some justification for your "outcoached" claims. "Shanny, Reid, or Fox are all obviously better coaches because they can make a game time decision, and MS' *** is really big" is all USELESS FLUFF!!! Provide some substance to your claims...like questioning a fourth down call, or how to keep the opponent's DE to the outside on running plays, or things like what I brought up...those at least can be debated.
     
  19. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    First of all musscy..you've brought nothing up..you've said alot of words without saying much of anything at all...

    and the fact that you think that Shanahan and Sherman are on the same levels..BLOWS MY FRICKIN' MIND....they are not even close...Shanahan has consistently been in the playoffs year in and year out..and imo..is a much better coach day in and day out than MS can ever hope to be...

    Also..i've stated numerous times on this forum the particular gaffs and problems that i have with Sherman as a coach after watching a game..and i'm not going to restate them here...

    But i can tell you this...if i were to give you a list of ALL the coaches in the NFL..Mike Sherman would fall somewhere near the bottom 2/3's in the list....

    (and i didn't say anything about Sherman's ***..don't be influenced by DePack's rhetoric....)
     
  20. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Mike Sherman has also been in the playoffs consistently (4 times in a row and 4 out of his 6 years as a HC, a pretty impressive .667 batting average if you ask me). In fact, over the time he's been a head coach, Sherman has a much better winning percentage. Moreover, why do you give Shanahan a pass when Denver gets into the playoffs and get consistently whipped each year, but you want Sherman's head for the same thing.

    Listen man, I know you hate Sherman (I think someone from Holy Cross must have wronged you in the past and you're projecting) but at least be consistent. Shanahan and Sherman are relatively equal in coaching skills.

    BTW, this is not meant to be a defense of Sherman. I think it might be time for him to leave, but this option must be weighed very carefully to ensure that whoever replaces him is actually an upgrade (see Spurrier, Steve for an example of what I'm talking about).
     
  21. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    Shanahan has consistently been in the playoffs year in and year out..and imo..is a much better coach day in and day out than MS can ever hope to be...

    MS had been consisently in the playoffs too (b4 this yr). In fact, prior to this year, I think MS and Reid were the only coaches to take their teams to the playoffs the last 4 years...even belichek couldn't say that...but yet again, the second half of your statement means nothing! Back it up! Why?!?...give me some stats or some rationale...not just some baseless opinion which you claim is fact.

    Also..i've stated numerous times on this forum the particular gaffs and problems that i have with Sherman as a coach after watching a game..and i'm not going to restate them here...

    ...which are typically BS "facts" like "he can't coach" or "play calling was stupid"

    But i can tell you this...if i were to give you a list of ALL the coaches in the NFL..Mike Sherman would fall somewhere near the bottom 2/3's in the list....

    My point again!!! What is the basis for your claim?!? Is this based on win:loss records? If so quantify. Talent development? If so provide examples. For all I know your logic is due to a beauty contest.

    You provide ambigous opinions, say they're fact, shout a lot, and then ridicule everyone that doesn't think like you do, and then hope nobody calls your bluff, or if they do, you just shout the same nonsense over and over, only louder. However, I see through this and it would be nice to read some defense of your opinions now and then, and some "2/3" stat that you made up isn't what I mean.
     
  22. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

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    Re: Job Postings: Are the jobs really as easy as some would.

    If by successful you mean winning the superbowl, then you're right, Pete Carroll wasn't successful.

    You want to keep Mike Sherman, because as you say, he has only had one losing season with the GB Packers.

    Did you know Pete Carroll was sacked from the Patriots job after two straight winning seasons and a .500 season?
    His success was limited, but the team he had back then was pretty much like what the Packers are this season. A team coming off some very good seasons, with late draft picks, and players demanding big salaries. If you think Pete Carroll deserved to be sacked because he didn't have success, you would want Sherman to lose his job as well?

    I think Pete Carroll is a good coach.
     

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