Jimmy Graham

[ivo610]

Jimmy Graham was the 13th best pass catcher last year. Surrounded by the likes of Decker (11-T), Gordon (11-T), Nelson (14-T), Boldin (14-T), Douglas (14-T). Don't those guys make similar $ to what Graham was offered, give-or-take a few, considering he wanted to be paid like a WR.

I seriously question your ranking of pass catchers.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Jimmy Graham was the 13th best pass catcher last year. Surrounded by the likes of Decker (11-T), Gordon (11-T), Nelson (14-T), Boldin (14-T), Douglas (14-T). Don't those guys make similar $ to what Graham was offered, give-or-take a few, considering he wanted to be paid like a WR.

I seriously question your ranking of pass catchers.

He ranked the receivers according to the number of receptions in the regular season in 2013. Obviously not the best way to do it.

 

[thequick12]

You forgot to mention the part where we have to give up a bunch of picks[/

TT wouldn't sign Graham even if it cost him nothing in terms of draft picks. He's signed 3 FA's to decent contracts in 10 years - and he's never given away draft picks for a player.

I love Graham as a player - I own him in 2 fantasy leagues - but I wouldn't want to give up picks to get him; and have his contract ripple throughout the rest of the roster?? No thanks.

As I, and others, have said though... TT would never give up picks for a player.[/quote

Actually TT has given up draft picks for a player many times by trading up in the draft. And he has at least once given up a draft pick to trade for a player during the season, RB Ryan grant. I personally would way rather have Cobb and Nelson along with our young group of TE than Graham minus Cobb or Nelson and 2 first round picks. Although the picks are less of a concern because the chances we get a player of Graham's caliber with either of those picks isn't very good. 20% in TT draft history as in only Matthews and Rodgers.

 

[adambr2]

Ummm YES !!! They are also TE's and I listed them in order of pay because YOU were the ones that said "Market value (for a FA) is determined by your value in relation to your peers" His peers are the highest paid TE's.

That's what YOU are saying his peers are. Obviously he thinks that his peers are elite WR's, and he does the same work as them, so why shouldn't he? And that's the whole point of contention.

If he wants to get paid like a WR, then he should wait out his time with the saints and go into the FA market and find some team willing to pay him what he thinks he is worth. I don't know the process of changing your position title, but I would think it is very possible once he hits the open market to be advertised as a WR.

He DID do that. He played out the last year of his contract for a low salary with no complaints. He WAS supposed to be a free agent this year. Then the Saints tagged him and there's nothing he could do about that.

And they could continue to do so for 3 years, all the while paying him less than WR money, all through the prime of his career.

 

[adambr2]

Jimmy Graham was the 13th best pass catcher last year. Surrounded by the likes of Decker (11-T), Gordon (11-T), Nelson (14-T), Boldin (14-T), Douglas (14-T). Don't those guys make similar $ to what Graham was offered, give-or-take a few, considering he wanted to be paid like a WR.

You took one stat (receptions) and used that as your basis for calling him the 13th best pass catcher. To call that argument "flawed" would be beyond generous.

By that line of logic:

- Harry Douglas and Kendall Wright are better pass catchers than Calvin Johnson (17th best in the NFL)
- Julian Edelman is better than AJ Green, Dez Bryant, and Alshon Jeffrey
- Pierre Garcon should be the NFL's highest paid wideout
- Graham can argue to be paid more than Calvin Johnson ($18.8M per year) since he is a better "pass catcher".

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

You took one stat (receptions) and used that as your basis for calling him the 13th best pass catcher. To call that argument "flawed" would be beyond generous.

By that line of logic:

- Harry Douglas and Kendall Wright are better pass catchers than Calvin Johnson (17th best in the NFL)
- Julian Edelman is better than AJ Green, Dez Bryant, and Alshon Jeffrey
- Pierre Garcon should be the NFL's highest paid wideout
- Graham can argue to be paid more than Calvin Johnson ($18.8M per year) since he is a better "pass catcher".

Where are you getting your info? Try this: http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/average/wide-receiver/

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

That's what YOU are saying his peers are. Obviously he thinks that his peers are elite WR's, and he does the same work as them, so why shouldn't he? And that's the whole point of contention.



He DID do that. He played out the last year of his contract for a low salary with no complaints. He WAS supposed to be a free agent this year. Then the Saints tagged him and there's nothing he could do about that.

And they could continue to do so for 3 years, all the while paying him less than WR money, all through the prime of his career.

What are you meaning by that? You can't tag a player for 3 years. He will be a FA well before that. Where do you get your info at ?

 

[adambr2]

What are you meaning by that? You can't tag a player for 3 years. He will be a FA well before that. Where do you get your info at ?

First of all, yes you can tag a player for 3 years.

Second of all, I have no idea what you are asking me when you asking what I am "meaning by that." I mean Graham was going to be an unrestricted free agent this season. Had the Saints not applied the franchise tag to him, he would be a FA.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

First of all, yes you can tag a player for 3 years.

Second of all, I have no idea what you are asking me when you asking what I am "meaning by that." I mean Graham was going to be an unrestricted free agent this season. Had the Saints not applied the franchise tag to him, he would be a FA.

Have you read the stipulations behind that thou? It does not happen because of the amount the tags jump each time. 120% , 144% ...... teams don't want that nor the drama that surrounds that. So, when was the last time some player got tagged like that? I cant remember......

And you are correct, you can tag 3 times, I didn't know that because I have never heard of it happening and had to actually look that up.....but couldnt find were a player(s) had that happen to them.

Either way: I have my point of view, you have yours. You think yours is correct, I think mine is correct. Just call it a draw man.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

He DID do that. He played out the last year of his contract for a low salary with no complaints. He WAS supposed to be a free agent this year. Then the Saints tagged him and there's nothing he could do about that.

And they could continue to do so for 3 years, all the while paying him less than WR money, all through the prime of his career.

The Saints can tag him for three years, but they wouldn´t be able to pay him less than WR money when doing it for the third time.

While tagging him would cost them $8.4 million in 2015 (120% of his 2014 salary) they would have to tag him at the average of the five largest salaries for players at the position with the highest such average in 2016 (that of course being the QB position with the number being at $16.912 million for 2014).

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

You took one stat (receptions) and used that as your basis for calling him the 13th best pass catcher. To call that argument "flawed" would be beyond generous.

By that line of logic:

- Harry Douglas and Kendall Wright are better pass catchers than Calvin Johnson (17th best in the NFL)
- Julian Edelman is better than AJ Green, Dez Bryant, and Alshon Jeffrey
- Pierre Garcon should be the NFL's highest paid wideout
- Graham can argue to be paid more than Calvin Johnson ($18.8M per year) since he is a better "pass catcher".

I seriously question your ranking of pass catchers.

That's fine that you do. All I did was look at who caught the most passes. How that's not relevant to a discussion about catching passes; well yeah not really sure, but I think it's sufficient to say that you guys are trying to read way too far between the lines.

PS: at catching passes Harry Douglass and Kendall Wright were better than CJ last year.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

You took one stat (receptions) and used that as your basis for calling him the 13th best pass catcher. To call that argument "flawed" would be beyond generous.

By that line of logic:

- Harry Douglas and Kendall Wright are better pass catchers than Calvin Johnson (17th best in the NFL)
- Julian Edelman is better than AJ Green, Dez Bryant, and Alshon Jeffrey
- Pierre Garcon should be the NFL's highest paid wideout
- Graham can argue to be paid more than Calvin Johnson ($18.8M per year) since he is a better "pass catcher".

Well he can't. He's a TE not WR as was ruled. That last one is just silly and ignored facts. You missed the very key part about me just talking about last year and just about catching passes. Was CJ's $18.8M contract established from his work last year being the 17th best pass catcher? Probably not.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

BTW, just to add some more context and food for thought. http://overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=WR has Antonio Brown as the 13th highest paid WR @ $8,392,000 per year. Probably a better use of the information about his pass catching rating last year and drawing parallels between that and a prospective contract.

Also in my previous post about Graham's receiving stats I was talking explicitly about his ability to catch passes since he wanted to be paid with that as high consideration. I'm very aware that there is more to being a great WR than just catching passes; no **** CPT Obvious.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's fine that you do. All I did was look at who caught the most passes. How that's not relevant to a discussion about catching passes; well yeah not really sure, but I think it's sufficient to say that you guys are trying to read way too far between the lines.

PS: at catching passes Harry Douglass and Kendall Wright were better than CJ last year.

It is pointless to only take the total number of receptions into consideration when ranking WRs. Wright and Douglas mostly play in the slot where they catch way shorter passes (Wright 11.5 yards per reception, Douglas 12.6) while Johnson mostly plays outside and is a deep threat (17.8). In addition Megatron had 12 TD receptions while Douglas and Wright both had 2.

Even if they had more receptions than CJ calling them better at catching passes is ridiculous.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

It is pointless to only take the total number of receptions into consideration when ranking WRs. Wright and Douglas mostly play in the slot where they catch way shorter passes (Wright 11.5 yards per reception, Douglas 12.6) while Johnson mostly plays outside and is a deep threat (17.8). In addition Megatron had 12 TD receptions while Douglas and Wright both had 2.

Even if they had more receptions than CJ calling them better at catching passes is ridiculous.

We'll we're not grading WR's. We're talking about a TE that was adamant about being a "pass catcher" and wanting to be paid as such.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receptions

Sort the list however you want. Graham is in the 10-20 range for most of the significant stats and never higher than tied for 9th (receptions over 20 yards), except TD's where he was #1 last year. But we can just use your logic to marginalise that by saying he's a TE and an easy/ constant red zone target so of course he has a high TD total.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We'll we're not grading WR's. We're talking about a TE that was adamant about being a "pass catcher" and wanting to be paid as such.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receptions

Sort the list however you want. Graham is in the 10-20 range for most of the significant stats and never higher than tied for 9th (receptions over 20 yards), except TD's where he was #1 last year. But we can just use your logic to marginalise that by saying he's a TE and an easy/ constant red zone target so of course he has a high TD total.

I don't care about what Graham will earn over his next contract as it won't be with the Packers.

I just wanted to point out that mentioning Douglas and Wright being better pass catchers than Megatron is insane.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

I don't care about what Graham will earn over his next contract as it won't be with the Packers.

I just wanted to point out that mentioning Douglas and Wright being better pass catchers than Megatron is insane.

Well then read the entire post including the quoted stuff so you understand the context of the statement. Sorry you thought I was ranking anyone, just said they were better at one aspect. And just to put a further stamp on the statement I'll throw this out too:
CJ had a 53% catch ratio last year (rec/targets)
Douglas had a 64% catch ratio last year (rec/targets)
Wright had a 67% catch ratio last year (rec/targets)

Again, no one is ranking them off of this alone; just saying that they were better at this aspect. But yeah I'm just an insane retard.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Just to let everybody know, the Saints and Graham have agreed to terms on a new contract.

Edit: Deal is for 4 years, $40 million with $20-21 million guaranteed.

 

[cara murphy]

Jimmy Graham has renewed the contract as a tight end with Saints.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Move along folks; nothing to see here. Will resurrect in 4 years time.

 

[adambr2]

Well he can't. He's a TE not WR as was ruled. That last one is just silly and ignored facts. You missed the very key part about me just talking about last year and just about catching passes. Was CJ's $18.8M contract established from his work last year being the 17th best pass catcher? Probably not.

I'm sure it also wasn't established solely from the amount of receptions he made prior to his contract.

 

[TJV]

With the talk about a $10M or $10M+ deal for him, it’s interesting that Graham received $40M over 4 years. $21M of it is guaranteed and he receives the guaranteed money during the first two years of the contract. That according to the link in NorthWestCheeseHead post #63, is slightly less than, but similar to Brandon Marshall’s deal signed this year. Marshall is listed as the 7th highest paid WR. Marshall’s four year deal total was slightly less ($700K) but his guarantee is $1.3M more. And as rotoworld writes, Graham’s “camp had no leverage in this deal because they were handcuffed by the franchise tag”.

BTW, Graham’s raise from last year to this ($1.3M to $13M) is a 1,000% raise and his raise from his rookie deal on an average annual basis ($2.445M for 4 years) of $611,250 to $10M per year average is a 1,636% increase, if my math is correct. And he very likely would have received even more as a UFA.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

I'm sure it also wasn't established solely from the amount of receptions he made prior to his contract.

go read everything else I've written in the thread. Already replied to this and feel no need to reiterate something you can view on this very same page.