It’s Time!

Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
5,387
Reaction score
727
or he would yell to Murphy & Gutekunst "What the hell are you two doing up there?!!"
You’ve got to judge a manager by their total body of work (not individual moves).
32-15-1 or a 68.0 win%
Not only that but his team has gotten better each with successive season under Brian.
From a 6-9-1 start to a
13-3 (lost in a NFC blowout)
13-3 (lost NFC by 5 to the SB Champs)

Also, you must remember that 6 players not named Aaron Rodgers were awarded a pro-bowl nod (1st place in the league) and all 6 are returning.

In looking at 3 consecutive drafts, aside from the Jordan Love selection because it’s too early to tell. Brian has done better than the average GM. If, for any reason, the Jordan Love selection works out to be the Packers QB of the future? Brian would instantly catapult himself into elite GM status.
IMO, Without successfully drafting at the QB position, a GM’s complete body of work is left incomplete. If Brian thinks we should consider moving on to a young, long-term solution at our QB version and in that process save $25mil per season to resign our best players + possible acquire multiple day 1-2 future draft picks, then IMO he’s 99% proven he can convert that $$ into talent and give us a shot at getting back to a SB.

With that said. I love Aaron Rodgers
(I don’t necessarily agree with his tactics) he’s been an absolute great find and an absolute pleasure to watch. But this is still a young man’s game and new talent comes into the league every season.

As great as Aaron Rodgers is at QB, he’s proven 100% that a regular season MVP QB is NOT a guarantee for winning a Super Bowl. Well rounded teams Win Championships and if Rodgers $contract$ is leaning on being counterproductive to achieving that well-rounded team? Then no man is bigger than the team no matter how important they think they are.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
755
Reaction score
41
As great as Aaron Rodgers is at QB, he’s proven 100% that a regular season MVP QB is NOT a guarantee for winning a Super Bowl. Well rounded teams Win Championships and if Rodgers $contract$ is leaning on being counterproductive to achieving that well-rounded team? Then no man is bigger than the team no matter how important they think they are.


Good Point
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
5,387
Reaction score
727
I couldn’t recall so I had to research this.. Can anyone tell me how many QB’s who won a regular season MVP also carried their team to a Super Bowl win in that season? Let’s go back 20 years.. there were 4 Non-QB position


Answer: 0/16

1999 Kurt Warner is the last QB to win both a regular season MVP and achieve its desired effect.
 
Last edited:

Sunshinepacker

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
4,622
Reaction score
233
I couldn’t recall so I had to research this.. Can anyone tell me how many QB’s who won a regular season MVP also carried their team to a Super Bowl win in that season? Let’s go back 20 years.. there were 4 Non-QB position


Answer: 0/16

1999 Kurt Warner is the last QB to win both a regular season MVP and achieve its desired effect.
Football isn’t basketball. There has never, in the history of the modern NFL, been a case of a single player carrying their team to a Super Bowl. This illusion is what’s lead to Brady to being considered better than Manning based solely on Brady having great defenses his entire career.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
5,387
Reaction score
727
Football isn’t basketball. There has never, in the history of the modern NFL, been a case of a single player carrying their team to a Super Bowl. This illusion is what’s lead to Brady to being considered better than Manning based solely on Brady having great defenses his entire career.
It is true. First of all Tom Brady went into Tampa while it held the #3 scoring Offense the previous year. It was their D that held them back at #29 scoring and once that got fixed? Tom held their O together at #3. It was the Tom-Bay Defense who dropped all the way to #8 who punched their ticket. You could see that D most apparent against both GB and KC.

I was also researching an argument that ensued in here several years back (2014?) The debate was “Defenses win Championships”. That got me thinking. I pulled every regular season scoring ranking in the SB era since the merger and divided the total cumulative rankings by seasons and rounded to nearest whole number.
D = 7th
O = 8th
From that conclusion it is absolutely better Odds for the better D over O but it’s marginal. It also shows me that adding the 2 rankings together is the average mean for a SB team. Anything under <15 overall ranking increases the SB winning odds, anything > decreases odds.

In 2019, the Packers had no business winning a SB at #24 overall scoring ranking.

In 2020, Tampa Bay went #11 cumulative scoring
Green Bay went #13th “ “
KC went #16 “ “

Disclaimer: if you win a SB betting pool using this information I’m now entitled to 50% of all winnings :coffee:
 
Last edited:

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
It is true. First of all Tom Brady went into Tampa while it held the #3 scoring Offense the previous year. It was their D that held them back at #29 scoring and once that got fixed? Tom held their O together at #3. It was the Tom-Bay Defense who dropped all the way to #8 who punched their ticket. You could see that D most apparent against both GB and KC.

I was also researching an argument that ensued in here several years back (2014?) The debate was “Defenses win Championships”. That got me thinking. I pulled every regular season scoring ranking in the SB era since the merger and divided the total cumulative rankings by seasons and rounded to nearest whole number.
D = 7th
O = 8th
From that conclusion it is absolutely better Odds for the better D over O but it’s marginal. It also shows me that adding the 2 rankings together is the average mean for a SB team. Anything under <15 overall ranking increases the SB winning odds, anything > decreases odds.

In 2019, the Packers had no business winning a SB at #24 overall scoring ranking.

In 2020, Tampa Bay went #11 cumulative scoring
Green Bay went #13th “ “
KC went #16 “ “

Disclaimer: if you win a SB betting pool using this information I’m now entitled to 50% of all winnings :coffee:
Thanks for the stats. I've never gone to this much trouble, but have always had a gut feeling that D wins games, especially championships. The only stat I do have is that in the history of the SB, the #1 O faced the #1 D six times. The result? The team with the #1 D won 5 out of 6 times (the exception being one of Joe Montana's Niners teams). I wouldn't mind at all if, in the post-Rodgers era, the Packers focused more on building an elite D. They really aren't that far away from a top 10 or top 5 D - they need an elite ILB and another very good DL or two. I don't mind GB spending $40 mil on a QB if they win some SBs, but they haven't.
 

Air2theThrown

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
15
Reaction score
1
Even if it did, as passive aggressive as Rodgers apparently is, he probably said "Sure, pick him" if he was told about it. While inside plotting his revenge "You'll see, I'll win the MVP this year and then demand to be traded".


Well, if that's their big master plan, trade him. It's just a season or two earlier than they planned.
Honestly I don’t think it’s earlier than they planned.
They thought he was done. They drafted his replacement with the plan to let him learn a year behind Rogers.
I don’t believe they drafted Love in round one with the plan to sit him 3 years. They planned to move on from Rogers.
The problem developed when Rogers performed well, won MVP and Love didn’t develop as quickly as expected.
The front office created the situation and knew they were going to tick off Rogers. No one should be surprised by Rogers actions.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
12,566
Reaction score
1,185
Honestly I don’t think it’s earlier than they planned.
They thought he was done. They drafted his replacement with the plan to let him learn a year behind Rogers.
I don’t believe they drafted Love in round one with the plan to sit him 3 years. They planned to move on from Rogers.
The problem developed when Rogers performed well, won MVP and Love didn’t develop as quickly as expected.
The front office created the situation and knew they were going to tick off Rogers. No one should be surprised by Rogers actions.
you think they picked Love to get him ready in a year they knew they weren't going to OTA's or Training camp or a preseason in which to work him in and thought they'd have him progress thru a season in which there was a big question if it would even occur up until it did?

I find it highly unlikely that was their plan.
 

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
Honestly I don’t think it’s earlier than they planned.
They thought he was done. They drafted his replacement with the plan to let him learn a year behind Rogers.
I don’t believe they drafted Love in round one with the plan to sit him 3 years. They planned to move on from Rogers.
The problem developed when Rogers performed well, won MVP and Love didn’t develop as quickly as expected.
The front office created the situation and knew they were going to tick off Rogers. No one should be surprised by Rogers actions.
Good summary. And yeah, Gluten doesn't trade up in Rd 1 and give up a 4th rounder if he doesn't think he's got a very solid prospect. I'm no fan of Gluten but these guys do scout for a living. Rodgers just wasn't ready for his farewell year. So now it's a mess. Gluten should have explained this to Rodgers prior to selecting Love, or at least said Love was a guy they liked if Rodgers decided to call it quits and if not, they'd trade him. Bottom line, all the right things were done in all the wrong ways, and now Rodgers is ticked. Making the fans suffer though is not cool, at least not to this fan.
 

thequick12

Cheesehead
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
2,086
Reaction score
156
Honestly I don’t think it’s earlier than they planned.
They thought he was done. They drafted his replacement with the plan to let him learn a year behind Rogers.
I don’t believe they drafted Love in round one with the plan to sit him 3 years. They planned to move on from Rogers.
The problem developed when Rogers performed well, won MVP and Love didn’t develop as quickly as expected.
The front office created the situation and knew they were going to tick off Rogers. No one should be surprised by Rogers actions.

I absolutely think they planned to sit Love at least 2 seasons if not 3 but definitely not 4.

If they thought Rodgers was done after the 2019 season, I seriously question their intelligence.

As Rodgers so humbly said "my down years are other guys career years"
 

rmontro

Cheesehead
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
2,987
Reaction score
259
If they thought Rodgers was done after the 2019 season, I seriously question their intelligence.

As Rodgers so humbly said "my down years are other guys career years"
I think what they were really questioning was his ability to stay healthy, not really his skill level.
 

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
That would be great. I'm just not sure they've shown the ability to be able to build an elite D.
No they haven't, and it starts with coaching. Holmgren and McCarthy and now MLF are O guys. That doesn't mean they can't hire an elite D coach, but it likely means they'll have to recruit an up and comer. Tall order, but I'd like to see a defensive minded team for a change, and save at least $15 or $20 mil on QB. Finally, it requires a change in mindset for the GM. Again, they don't have the right guy.
 

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
I think what they were really questioning was his ability to stay healthy, not really his skill level.
Yeah it's funny, in a sad way. After the 2019 season, I never doubted Rodgers. Yeah he threw 25 or so TDs with his usual low single digit INTs. The team went 14-4, hardly a team with a QB in decline. And look at history. As banged up as Favre was after like a million starts in a row, he still had something left. But not once did the thought cross my mind that they needed to find Rodgers's replacement NOW. That was a big error by Gluten, and for a guy who gets paid to evaluate talent, a really big mistake. These kinds of mistakes have consequences, and that's one reason we're in this mess. (And Rodgers could grow up a little. He's made his point.)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
5,387
Reaction score
727
Yeah it's funny, in a sad way. After the 2019 season, I never doubted Rodgers. Yeah he threw 25 or so TDs with his usual low single digit INTs. The team went 14-4, hardly a team with a QB in decline. And look at history. As banged up as Favre was after like a million starts in a row, he still had something left. But not once did the thought cross my mind that they needed to find Rodgers's replacement NOW. That was a big error by Gluten, and for a guy who gets paid to evaluate talent, a really big mistake. These kinds of mistakes have consequences, and that's one reason we're in this mess. (And Rodgers could grow up a little. He's made his point.)
True. Gluten overspent in FA in his 1st season as GM. I’m not blaming him as many of us wanted aggressive. Aggressive we got. Some of those moves have put GB in a Cap nightmare situation as no one could’ve predicted the 2020 season Cap correction. QB can fix that real fast. These changes and moves aren’t anything but trying to stay cap friendly
 

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
True. Gluten overspent in FA in his 1st season as GM. I’m not blaming him as many of us wanted aggressive. Aggressive we got. Some of those moves have put GB in a Cap nightmare situation as no one could’ve predicted the 2020 season Cap correction. QB can fix that real fast. These changes and moves aren’t anything but trying to stay cap friendly
Playing the cap game in the NFL is like playing four dimensional chess.
 

Pkrjones

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
172
Location
Northern IL
Gute recognized that the D was a major weak spot so went out and bought a high-end FA Safety (Amos), 2 Pass rushers (the Smiths) and bolstered the OL with Turner (knowing that Bulaga was too high-priced to keep). I wouldn't say Gute overspent, did what was necessary to help balance the O & D better.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
12,566
Reaction score
1,185
Considering how all those FA pick ups turned out, so far it's hard to consider any of them less than a very good signing when you account for price and production. Even Preston Smith.
 

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
Gute recognized that the D was a major weak spot so went out and bought a high-end FA Safety (Amos), 2 Pass rushers (the Smiths) and bolstered the OL with Turner (knowing that Bulaga was too high-priced to keep). I wouldn't say Gute overspent, did what was necessary to help balance the O & D better.
It would have been overspending if the athletes hadn't performed. That said, Z has been phenomenal, Preston had a great first year, followed by an average second year, and has reported to camp leaner which tells me he took last year seriously and wants to improve. Turner had a weak first year, followed by a great second year. And Amos is probably one of the top ten safeties in the league, if not the top 5 now (and we got him from a rival). Paired with a much improved Savage and the acquisition of Alexander and Gary, and the Packers have a strong set of edge rushers and secondary. GB will need Stokes to step up (I'm not counting on King), and that may take a year. The only gaps in the D are ILB (addressed somewhat in FA this year), and at least one more stud DL, ideally two, to surround Clark.

Back to the original point. Yeah Gluten spent a lot on D in FA and in the draft. I'm very encouraged by the results, and think Gluten did all he could. Good moves on his part.
 

Sunshinepacker

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
4,622
Reaction score
233
You’ve got to judge a manager by their total body of work (not individual moves).
32-15-1 or a 68.0 win%
Not only that but his team has gotten better each with successive season under Brian.
From a 6-9-1 start to a
13-3 (lost in a NFC blowout)
13-3 (lost NFC by 5 to the SB Champs)

Also, you must remember that 6 players not named Aaron Rodgers were awarded a pro-bowl nod (1st place in the league) and all 6 are returning.

In looking at 3 consecutive drafts, aside from the Jordan Love selection because it’s too early to tell. Brian has done better than the average GM. If, for any reason, the Jordan Love selection works out to be the Packers QB of the future? Brian would instantly catapult himself into elite GM status.
IMO, Without successfully drafting at the QB position, a GM’s complete body of work is left incomplete. If Brian thinks we should consider moving on to a young, long-term solution at our QB version and in that process save $25mil per season to resign our best players + possible acquire multiple day 1-2 future draft picks, then IMO he’s 99% proven he can convert that $$ into talent and give us a shot at getting back to a SB.

With that said. I love Aaron Rodgers
(I don’t necessarily agree with his tactics) he’s been an absolute great find and an absolute pleasure to watch. But this is still a young man’s game and new talent comes into the league every season.

As great as Aaron Rodgers is at QB, he’s proven 100% that a regular season MVP QB is NOT a guarantee for winning a Super Bowl. Well rounded teams Win Championships and if Rodgers $contract$ is leaning on being counterproductive to achieving that well-rounded team? Then no man is bigger than the team no matter how important they think they are.

Weird that we’re blaming Rodgers for not having a well rounded team and not Thompson or Gute…
 

Sunshinepacker

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
4,622
Reaction score
233
Gute recognized that the D was a major weak spot so went out and bought a high-end FA Safety (Amos), 2 Pass rushers (the Smiths) and bolstered the OL with Turner (knowing that Bulaga was too high-priced to keep). I wouldn't say Gute overspent, did what was necessary to help balance the O & D better.

Gute DID overspend because the Packers had nobody good enough in-house to re-sign. Rodgers contract isn’t the problem, it’s Ted’s failures in his last few years that forced Gute to turn to free agency.
 

Heyjoe4

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
167
Gute DID overspend because the Packers had nobody good enough in-house to re-sign. Rodgers contract isn’t the problem, it’s Ted’s failures in his last few years that forced Gute to turn to free agency.
Good point. Gluten had a LOT of holes to fill and one year to do it. I'm not a fan of Gluten (he strikes me as an introvert with weak communication skills), but he did amazingly well with Z, Preston, Turner, and Amos. He hit on all of them in either both years, or one of the two years. Had TT been using FA to the team's advantage, Gluten wouldn't have had so much talent to find.

It also doesn't help when the QB takes up 20% of the cap. In the case of the very talented Rodgers, I'd say that was worth it. But it does limit the GM. The biggest remaining holes I see are all on D - ILB and DL. They did sign an ILB in FA, can't recall the name. It's a good year for some of the marginal DL guys to step up their game.

It will be a shame if Rodgers doesn't play this year, with a lot of talent surrounding the QB and a decent shot at a SB. But I'm getting so sick of all the back and forth speculation, I'm ready to move on from Rodgers. Never thought I'd write that......
 

Sunshinepacker

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
4,622
Reaction score
233
Good point. Gluten had a LOT of holes to fill and one year to do it. I'm not a fan of Gluten (he strikes me as an introvert with weak communication skills), but he did amazingly well with Z, Preston, Turner, and Amos. He hit on all of them in either both years, or one of the two years. Had TT been using FA to the team's advantage, Gluten wouldn't have had so much talent to find.

It also doesn't help when the QB takes up 20% of the cap. In the case of the very talented Rodgers, I'd say that was worth it. But it does limit the GM. The biggest remaining holes I see are all on D - ILB and DL. They did sign an ILB in FA, can't recall the name. It's a good year for some of the marginal DL guys to step up their game.

It will be a shame if Rodgers doesn't play this year, with a lot of talent surrounding the QB and a decent shot at a SB. But I'm getting so sick of all the back and forth speculation, I'm ready to move on from Rodgers. Never thought I'd write that......

This is the crazy part, Rodgers has literally not added a THING to this discussion and people are ready to be upset at Rodgers because the media and fans are bored in the NFL off-season. Seriously, what has Rodgers done since the news broke that would lead you to want to move on? He hasn't said or done anything to add to the situation in the slightest. It's just been Skip Bayless, Cowherd, and the other sports media airheads that have nothing better to do.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top