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Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by TomAllen, Jul 19, 2006.

  1. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    then dungys time should be numbered.

    its a hell of an offense...and he can never ever turn that defense around...

    yeah, dungy should go then, depack. so whats your point?
     
  2. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    AADP is right on. Sherman/Bates is hands down better than McCarthy/Sanders at this point in time.

    I find it funny that people bash Sherman. Sherman was a good Head Coach. Using Sherman sucked in close games is lame. You should rephrase it to "Sherman sucked in games that were close that we lost"
    We won lots of close games with MS as well. No matter how you pick apart Sherman the man got us to the playoffs and gave us a chance. Do you think Sherman approached playoff games any differently than regular season games?


    As a coach myself, it's an all to common misconception. Sayings like "he couldn't win the big one" and "he stinks in the playoffs" are thrown around far to often and simply make no sense. The reason teams lose in the playoffs are because they are playing the best of the best. The odds are entirely stacked against you. To get to the Super Bowl you have to play 2-3 games against elite competition. I could bet that if you played all 3 games against the same teams during the regular season you would not win all 3 of them 8-10 times. It's simple odds.


    COACHES DO NOT COACH ANY DIFFERENTLY IN THE PLAYOFFS THAN IN THE REGULAR SEASON! The only exception would be if you have all bye's/homefield locked up. In that case you intentionally deal yourself a bad hand by leaving starters on the bench but you coach just as hard as you always do.


    All in all I would have rather seen Sherman stay if I new the best they could do in replacing him was a Mike McCarthy. I'm just not impressed with him or TT at this point in time. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.
     
  3. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Yep, and the 2006 Cubs are better than the 2007 Cardinals and Yankees...

    worst.logic.ever.
     
  4. 4packgirl

    4packgirl Cheesehead

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    personally i could not STAND sherman's coaching style - it drove me CRAZY watching him chewing on his friggin pen on the sidelines. but that's just me. as an athlete, i ALWAYS loved the coaches who pushed us like crazy & hollered at us when we needed it.

    now as far as sherman goes personally - i.e. his family, his morals, his values?? - i wouldn't have a clue since i don't know him. he seemed to me to be a fairly nice guy though.
     
  5. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Pyle,

    What about McCarthy do you not like as a Head Coach? He hasn't even been on the sidelines as a HC yet?!?

    Tough crowd, man...
     
  6. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Thats the thing, I don't think pyle and I are saying McCarthy is the worst choice ever. He may turn out to be an amazing coach, but thats the thing, it will take time. Regardless I don't buy into the notion that the Packers have a better chance to go the superbowl without Favre. It is going to take time, building a D like the Bears will take about another 2-3 years IMO in terms of talent, and longer for them to gel. The Packers may become a running team, but there aren't early indications that Gado will become the back, because he has struggled to pick up this O system. In case Gado doesn't pan out, we are in trouble. Ahman is getting up their in age, and ****** can't stay healthy.

    Our D is still a few playmakes short of being great. Woodson can be a playmaker, but it is not known whether he will be this season. The jury is still out. Harris is getting old two, and in about 2 years time he may not be the same player he is now. Regardless he will loose a step. Ditto KGB. He is a one trick pony, and he hasn't been doing his one trick up to par lately.

    Hey I'm all for TT. Unlike pyle, I think he has done good moves to stabalize the future of the franchise. He has gotten the depth back up, and has competition for spots. Where I have a problem is that McCarthy/Sanders have the odds stacked against them in terms of coming in and righting the ship right away. I hope I am wrong, trust me, I'll gladly eat my words.

    Trom, the difference between Bates and Sanders is that Bates had experience as a DC and HC, and he was battle tested. Sanders has been a soldier under Commander Bates, but now Sanders is the Commander, and he isn't battle tested. He may have learned from the greatest DC around, but that doesn't make it certain that Sanders will be decent too.

    In the end, all I am saying is that I think Sherman should have been given one more year, because if this is Brett's last year, then Sherman had a higher chance (mathematically speaking using combinatrics branch of mathematics) of leading the team to the playoffs. Once we were in, there was always a chance of a miracle, devine intervention to see Favre is sent off the right way. However, how can a miracle of getting to the Superbowl happen if we don't even make the playoffs?
     
  7. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    I agree AADP. I liked Sherman but was not heartbroken when he was let go, though I felt it was a little premature. What bothers me was they replaced him with Mike McCarthy. I don't know either way what MM will do as a head coach. He may be great or he may stink. All I have to go on is his past. He had 1-2 good years in NO but when he was handed a young team like the 49ers he struggled.

    So now we have the youngest coach in the NFL coaching one of the youngest teams in the NFL. It's not a good combination, period. He comes into GB talking about how he is going to change the attitude and blah,blah,blah and then players don't report for OTA's and he makes excuses for them. We know "Charles had prior commitments in Europe".......Gimme a break!


    That to me suggests that the future is not as bright as many like to think. I think it was another TT blunder. AADP is exactly right. Give Sherman one more year and address the OL and Reciever spot and Brett has one last chance for a Super Bowl. Instead he chose to go with a Rookie coach who was the Off. Coordinator on the leagues worst offense. He lets Wahle walk and states "the OG spot isn't that important." As if that wasn't enough he caves to J-Walk and doesn't pursue any proven WR in FA. I just don't like what I see and you have every right to feel the opposite way.
     
  8. net

    net Cheesehead

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    Finally someone gives Mike Sherman his due.

    The guy has taken more crap than he deserves. It's all behind us now, and I wish him well in Texas. I think another team might give his a head coaching shot within a year or so.
     
  9. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    How could he be worst choice ever? He hasn't even stepped a foot on the field as an HC so how can ANY statement be said regarding best/worst or anything?
     
  10. Heatherthepackgirl

    Heatherthepackgirl Cheesehead

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    We have to give MM a chance as head coach, he might surprise us all. Change is always difficult, and especially when Brett Favre goes that will be a big change for all of us fans.

    When Favre is in the game there is always hope. If this is his last year to play, I hope he can go out with a bang..
     
  11. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    To me, the folks that still defend MS are about equivalent to a battered woman who keeps crawling back to their tormenter for another beating. The guy had six seasons to get it right and he failed in every regard. He made repeated blunders as both GM and coach......producing an increasingly thin and less talented roster every year....year after year.

    The key here is REPEATED mistakes....he never seemed to learn from them and, most egregiously, failed to allow his staff to do ther respective jobs. He was a quietly arrogant control freak, bottom line. Regardless of MS the person's obvious and abundant qualities, he came up far short as a HC and GM.

    Are you MS supporters still sticking knives in outlets only to be suprised that you get a shock?

    P.S. For those of you about to cite his excellent win percentage, do not discount the fact that it was build in the worst division in football...which amounts to 40% of all games (50% when Tampa was still in the division)...and on the back of a HOF QB...whom he never provided weapons to and woefully misused, playing against his strengths. Do NOT even get me going on Rossley, Slowik and Novak.

    Bottom line...MS was provided more than enough time to do the job...he failed.
     
  12. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    Exactly correct on the roster quote. That is the biggest hole in the Mike Sherman success story. Signing marginal players to huge contracts and absolute horrible drafting left us with the depleted roster. If the pro Mike Sherman team could ever admit this, our argument spread over countless threads may finally get resolved.
     
  13. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    Let me tell you all a little story about Mike Sherman and the kind of guy he is....

    The day before we lost to the Vikings in the playoffs ending the 2004 season, I was up in Green Bay with a little boy who was dying of cancer. The Packer organization and Brett Favre were gracious enough to host Christopher for the day. While the Packer were doing their pregame walk through (highly secret as they go through some of the plays that are to be called the next day) We took a tour through the locker room. The team was on the field in the stadium and it was about 20 degrees. After we toured the facilities down stairs, we were ushered up into one of the suites and wathced the end of the practice. As practice ended, Sherman brought the whole team to the center of the field (on the "G") and gave them a final pep talk before releasing them to the warmth of the locker room. But before he let them go, he had the ENTIRE TEAM turn to us in the suite and wave to us.

    We then walked down to the locker room and lunch room where we first met coach Sherman. He knelt down next to Christopher and talked with him for about five minutes. He then took his lunch and went back up to his office so that he could have a working lunch.

    That was the kind of guy Mike Sherman was. In the midst of preparing for a huge game, he never lost sight of his priorities....people. For that I will always be a fan of him.
     
  14. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    There is absolutely no argument that MS was a good human being, we are discussing Mike Sherman football coach/GM.

    No reason to muddle the water...we all know he was a more than decent man.......
     
  15. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    But i feel like muddling.... :wink:
     
  16. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Muddle away!
     
  17. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    trippster I told a similar story about Sherman but again it fell on deaf ears. Comparing a football fan loyal to a winning coach to an abused woman just shows the kind of no-win situation you are in. You can't support Sherman or think he did a good job because God-forbid he didn't win a Super Bowl. That is the ONLY requisite for being successful in the eyes of the blind.

    digs...you compared the Packers to a business earlier and said if persons underachieved they would be fired. It depends on your definition of underachieved. Winning the SuperBowl is the ultimate in football but not the only measure of success. If so then your company would have fired you. Is your company #1 in the world? Is Burger King not a success because McDonalds outsells them?

    Talking about Sherman has become similar to talking about politics and religion on this board. Nobody's mind is going to change and some are making it personal. I'm surprised Ryan hasn't banned all mention of Sherman.

    I'm sure anyone on this board that has ever witnessed or been a party of spousal abuse appreciates your trivializing their plight.
     
  18. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Oh, please, DePack. Continued repeated mistakes....get it? Would it have been nice to win the SB under MS? Sure. But I would have been happy with CONTINUED IMPROVEMENT and all he mustered was CONTINUED DECLINE. You see, DePack...I am not one of the frothing at the mouth types who measures everything in terms of the SB. Yes, that is where you want to get, but I understand a team ramps up to that level.....MS had the team ramping down. Get it NOW??

    You are right, it is like politics...some of us will never agree on the matter...big friggin' deal...that is what makes sites like this fun...differing opinions.

    It was an analogy, and if anyone thinks it diminishes the seriousness of abuse, that is their misguided thinking and analytical skills.

    Ryan banning all mention of MS? Why, because some of us disagree with you and your like-minded fellows? For good or bad, he is a significant topic with regard to the current state of the team....and worthy of discussion if the mood suits.

    Are you done making vastly misguided assumptions about my thinking?
     
  19. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    OHHHHH so your battered women spin was an analogy. No sh1t! It was just a bad one. A GOOD analogy was my comparison of Sherman talk to religion and politics, thus putting them in the same category. NOW do you get it?

    Bill Cowher had the Steelers declining about 5 years ago. I believe he did alright, given the chance to keep his job. Get it NOW?

    Lastly, I don't think I made any misguided assumptions about your thinking, much less vastly ones!!! Stand by your post. Reread the first sentence. It does say that I am "about equivalent to a battered women.....". Maybe I just missed the LOL part of the message!
     
  20. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Continued repeated mistakes? Year after Year he got us to the playoffs. If he made continued repeated mistakes how the heck did we keep making it to the playoffs? Surely you are not basing it all on last year? 5 Straight winning seasons and 3 straight Division titles and you knock the guy?


    Using the division for your argument is weak at best. In the end his record was what it was. You can take any coach in NFL history and distort the facts to fit your argument. One of the best coaches in NFL history, Bill Walsh, played in a weak division the majority of his coaching career.
     
  21. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

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    Yeah Pyle, Bill Walsh had nothing to work with right? San Francisco had better reserves than most teams had starters.

    If Sherman could have won some more playoff games with HIS depleted roster, we could then talk about what a good coach he is. If you want to compare Sherman to another coach use Dennis Green or Tony Dungy as your example not a guy who one four Super Bowls.
     
  22. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    I was using it to compare the WEAK DIVISION argument. Why does everything get twisted?
     
  23. billv

    billv Cheesehead

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    At the beginning of Sherman's tenure, I don't think the division was that weak. Minnesota and Tampa Bay were both talented, but we were just better.

    But Sherman couldn't win the big games, and especially the last few years, I don't think he could get the team fired up enough.
     
  24. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Some people are simply masochists, DePack....sorry, but that is reality. Sad as that may be. War analogies are often used in discussing sports...does that necessarily diminish the badness that is war? No, it does not.

    Continued, repeated mistakes....poor and predictable playcalling at critical moments, sitting on leads, poor clock management, bad drafts and personnel decisions, unwilling to solicit and take to heart the input of the staff HE assembled, and an abject unwillingness to part with players and staff who clearly were not up to the task. Yeah...continued, repeated mistakes. Thank goodness for the Bears, Lions and Queens.

    Yeah, they made the playoffs pyle.....and did worse in them damn near every year. It is not hard to make the playoffs playing in the worst division of football...and we all got to witness what happened once we actually faced stern competition......that would be getting our asses handed to us in a variety of embarrassing ways. Walsh got to the playoffs and won against quality teams. That you refuse to understand the basic difference between winning and losing against good teams is rather startling.

    Hell...I am gonna open a Kool-Aid stand for some of you and retire early...."Mike Sherman rocks....slurp...mmmmmmm!!"

    Some of you like to make TT the scapegoat for the team's stumble last year. To the extent he could not replace two all-pro guards, yeah, you are on to something there. But that is like blaming the last Emperor of Rome for its rapid fall. It was a long time coming.

    That you would utter Bill Walsh in the same breath as Mike Sherman is pretty amazing.
     
  25. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    "Keep trying to pet a dog that bites them............" or, does this diminish dogs?

    "Keep returning to an unfaithful lover......." or, does this diminish cads?

    "Keep beating their head against a brick wall....." or, does this diminish brick walls?

    "Keep sticking a fork in their eye...." or, does this diminish forks?

    Any of these working for ya?

    Since when are you a literalist?
     

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